P and J

[Totenkindly]

Ps have all variety of definitions of success. The important thing is that their definitions allow them to feel smugly superior to Js while keeping them largely out of our way. Everyone wins!

As a P, I was not sure of the purpose of this thread until I saw this post.

Now I feel as if the morning has been a success!!!

 

[Mycroft]

As a P, I was not sure of the purpose of this thread until I saw this post.

Now I feel as if the morning has been a success!!!

I'll admit to being snarky, but would you say this assertion is without a kernel of truth?

 

[Totenkindly]

I'll admit to being snarky, but would you say this assertion is without a kernel of truth?

Maybe a little kernel?

(I would probably choke on a big one.)

 

[FDG]

Dunno. You can think that you want to do something (call it a goal?) and then be flexible and change your plan when circumstances change.

In J's favor, the most functional J's seem to consistently review their decisions and change them if new information occurs.

Yeah I do it that way. Although information can also be "now I don't feel like doing anything".

BTW you can't really say which strategy is more successful. Doing things randomly and doing things sequentially can result in exactly the same number of things being done, so that the "success" would be equal.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, allow me to present you with P-caricaturization-of-a-failed-J-relationship A.

BS, being J doesn't mean one's life is dominated by working. That would just result in unhappiness and a waste of one's own life.

 

[Mycroft]

BS, being J doesn't mean one's life is dominated by working. That would just result in unhappiness and a waste of one's own life.

Maybe you should read that sentence one more time.

 

[FDG]

Maybe you should read that sentence one more time.

I understood perfectly, moron. What's incompatible between the two?

 

[Mycroft]

I understood perfectly, moron. What's incompatible between the two?

I'm just going to quote this in case you delete your post.

 

[proteanmix]

Who would win in an ENTJ vs. INTJ deathmatch?

 

[FDG]

I'm just going to quote this in case you delete your post.

Why would I?

 

[INTJMom]

That would make me lose my mind.

That made me chuckle.
I know how you feel.
My husband is an ISTP and it took me the longest time to adjust to his P!
What am I saying?!
We've been married 25 years and I'm still adjusting!

 

[substitute]

BS, being J doesn't mean one's life is dominated by working. That would just result in unhappiness and a waste of one's own life.

[cue silly insult exchange]

Now now, gentlemen...

I think he just mistook what was meant as a hypothetical analogy to explain my reasons for choosing to operate the way I do as opposed to the J way, as a blanket judgement on all J-type relationships. It's not possible in that case to tell me I'm wrong, because a person is not capable of being wrong when they're talking about their own thoughts. If someone says "I think...XYZ" then whilst it's possible to say that you think XYZ is incorrect, it's not possible or reasonable to question the fact that the person thinks it.

All I was doing was describing the way I think, not making any judgements or observations.

Let's not be too quick to put something that's simply a misunderstanding down to faults in other people...

 

[quietgirl]

In J's favor, the most functional J's seem to consistently review their decisions and change them if new information occurs. They simply feel more secure feeling at a particular moment if they have a goal they can articulate cleanly. As a P, I hate how inconstant that feels -- I would rather not articulate the goal until I know it's the best one. So I have no choice but to focus on "process," rather than results.

This is how I operate. I need constant closure, which is brought on by a decision. It's not to say I will not change my decision if need information leads me in another direction, but I need to make the decision as soon as possible. Otherwise, I get extremely anxious.

I also agree that P/J may be the biggest divide in our psyches. I find that I can interact on a personal or romantic level rather easily with E's, T's, and even S types - but the P/J is where I find myself running into the most problems with communication. For example, I like to know what I'm doing the next day. It's not that I need an hour by hour detailed schedule, but in general, if I am going to be hanging out with a boyfriend or a friend, I like to know that I am doing so & around the time I will see them. That way, I can plan the rest of my day around that time - mainly to make sure I can accomplish everything I have set out to accomplish that day. Up until the past couple weeks, I've always dated P guys & this sort of thing drove them CRAZY. I recently started dating a J guy and, my goodness, day to day planning just got a million times easier.

 

[FDG]

I also agree that P/J may be the biggest divide in our psyches. I find that I can interact on a personal or romantic level rather easily with E's, T's, and even S types - but the P/J is where I find myself running into the most problems with communication. For example, I like to know what I'm doing the next day. It's not that I need an hour by hour detailed schedule, but in general, if I am going to be hanging out with a boyfriend or a friend, I like to know that I am doing so & around the time I will see them. That way, I can plan the rest of my day around that time - mainly to make sure I can accomplish everything I have set out to accomplish that day. Up until the past couple weeks, I've always dated P guys & this sort of thing drove them CRAZY. I recently started dating a J guy and, my goodness, day to day planning just got a million times easier.

I agree with this, I had problems when I dated P girls.

 

[substitute]

Up until the past couple weeks, I've always dated P guys & this sort of thing drove them CRAZY. I recently started dating a J guy and, my goodness, day to day planning just got a million times easier.

I agree with this, I had problems when I dated P girls.

I believe y'all. It's just that when me and an ENTJ got together in a relationship once, the very planets aligned and every rose since the eve of creation was blossomed anew to the tune of endless violins, punctuated by dazzling fireworks. And we lived in blissful, happy union right up until the point where death separated us.

But ahem... heheh... corny cliches aside, P/J pairings can work. I know this

 

[FDG]

Oh yeah, well, I also think that if a P type knows that the J type needs to know an outline of the day, and he/she is in a committed relationship, he/she won't really have a problem adapting!

For example, I generally enjoy making "surprises" to my girlfriend by dropping by their house with a present or something in a completely casual way without asking or telling priorly. It worked with the P gfs, but it doesn't with my actual J. I unwillingly gave it up, but it's okay given that it's traded for good compatibility in term of everyday decisions.

Anyway, an exception to the P-J differences that have been mentioned, is that I personally don't write an outline nor organize anything when I have to write an essay, work on something, or go somewhere (unless there are other people involved). I very much prefer to come up with ideas and corrections as I write rather than focus excessively on an end result that I may not be able to achieve.

 

[substitute]

Oh yeah, well, I also think that if a P type knows that the J type needs to know an outline of the day, and he/she is in a committed relationship, he/she won't really have a problem adapting!

Anyway, an exception to the P-J differences that have been mentioned, is that I personally don't write an outline nor organize anything when I have to write an essay, work on something, or go somewhere (unless there are other people involved). I very much prefer to come up with ideas and corrections as I write rather than focus excessively on an end result that I may not be able to achieve.

Yes, my ENTJ was the same. He was very action oriented, but if he had something to do, an assignment or task, he'd decide what he needed to know to do it best, then obtain that knowledge in record time, by the most incredible discipline and focus - he'd sit up all night for days reading a book not even in his first language, and go from zero knowledge of this thing, to within a week, having written a definitive guide to it.

Sometimes though, I had to encourage him and motivate him to start. If he couldn't be assured of success before he started, he'd often not start. And sometimes, if the avenues he looked down to find his solutions didn't come up with the goods, he'd also give up too easily. I'd have to often be there to constantly say 'not necessarily' and 'nil desperandum', to find and point out other avenues for him to try and convince him that it was worth trying.

I suspect that was an example of how P-ness can really compliment J-ness, as opposed to clashing with it.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I hated when one ESFJ girl fell in love with me, and she showed her interest in me by asking every trivial decision before.. it's not just J/P thing, something else too. It really annoyed the living shit out of me to be queried every minute about everything that I/we/she should/would/will do some 30 seconds/1 minute into the future. Or hell, day before, or whatever.. as long as something is trivial enough, I am just goddamned annoyed if it has to be mentioned instead of just living in the moment or planning something worthwhile.

It was at least unneeded caretaking role stepping in, unneeded organizer role, the whole love was unneeded.. oh hell. What do we learn about this? Nothing. Nothing at all. Stress/silly behaviour of any kind is just that.

 

[FDG]

Yes, my ENTJ was the same. He was very action oriented, but if he had something to do, an assignment or task, he'd decide what he needed to know to do it best, then obtain that knowledge in record time, by the most incredible discipline and focus - he'd sit up all night for days reading a book not even in his first language, and go from zero knowledge of this thing, to within a week, having written a definitive guide to it.

Sometimes though, I had to encourage him and motivate him to start. If he couldn't be assured of success before he started, he'd often not start. And sometimes, if the avenues he looked down to find his solutions didn't come up with the goods, he'd also give up too easily. I'd have to often be there to constantly say 'not necessarily' and 'nil desperandum', to find and point out other avenues for him to try and convince him that it was worth trying.

I suspect that was an example of how P-ness can really compliment J-ness, as opposed to clashing with it.

ah. I'm EXACTLY like that.

Stress/silly behaviour of any kind is just that.

I agree with you in regard to one minute stuff, but say if I have to go out with a girl and the same day I don't know approx when and were, I get more stressed than if I were to knew

 

[substitute]

It was at least unneeded caretaking role stepping in, unneeded organizer role, the whole love was unneeded.. oh hell. What do we learn about this? Nothing. Nothing at all.

No, I relate to that. It's why I have such difficulty in getting along with ExFJ's. The big ExFJ - especially ENFJ - trait that gets to me the most is when every time I express anything at all to them, like if I say something they've done was wrong or annoyed me, then it's always got to be 'where do we go from here? what does this mean for the dynamic of our relationship from now on?' Like they want a blueprint, they want me to give instructions for them on exactly how our friendship is to proceed, which to me is very stressful because I just figure, "why can't you just see what happens? can't you just take it as it comes? why do I have to commit to a plan of relationship with you?"

And the worst part is where they assume that I've signed up to some relational plan or contract that I wasn't even aware of, just because I seem to have behaved in a way that, so far, hasn't contravened it. So that if I decide to 'end' it or break it, I get accused of betrayal of trust, when all I've done is to try to distance myself from someone I find annoying and hard work.

 

[substitute]

Actually, I find ExTJ's to be a strange kind of exception to the J rules, or at least in my experience. Naturally I'm talking about how they respond to me and me in return to them, so it could be that it's me that brings out a certain side of them that others don't necessarily see, or vice versa... it's too subjective to be able to tell.

But in general, ExTJ's, and especially ENTJ's, I find tend to be much more flexible with regard to what THEY plan, do, want, etc - than other J types. They don't tend to need plans or schedules for themselves, but what they do instead is to expect others to be scheduled and planned and 'regular as clockwork', they want others to be predictable precisely so that they can freely manoeuvre themselves 'between' others' actions etc.

I'm not sure whether I put that across very well, but I'm trying to say that whilst other J's I've known have tended to acknowledge that others are not able to be predicted all of the time, they want to at least be able to predict, to some extent, their own actions and plans. But ENTJ's are kind of the opposite way round. The main effect of which that I notice, is that they're easier to persuade to change their minds.