• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

N - myths

developer

New member
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
117
MBTI Type
INTJ
I am concerned about the turn several threads are taking recently. Basically, one gets the impression, as if there were a need to associate N - ness with good qualities as in contrast to S - ness.

On one side, there are several discussions about how N is correlated to IQ. Although this correlation seems to exist, that does not mean that Ss are by definition less intelligent, indiviudally, as Ns. We are just looking at two slightly shifted Bell curves here, but with both containing a very wide range of individual values. The approach to statistics used by some posters actually serves to reinforce the notion that N does not always need to be correlated with high IQ.

On the other side, some posters argue that no high level Nazi could have been an N. These posters do not seem to have seen much original footage of speeches done by high level officials of that regime (I have). I fully agree with Uber's assessment of several persons mentioned in his post (although I may not agree with his enthusiasm for these persons). I am afraid that this terrible ideology did infiltrate N - brains just as well as S - brains.

I am very conscious and appreciative of Jennifer's comment in an earlier thread, where she said that many Ns are suffering so much in RL, that they need to blow off some steam here in this forum. This is a valuable argument, but I think we are not doing ourselves or the MBTI a big favour by propagating the myth of the N as some superior being.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
I have started some threads on those topics. I dont hold great merit to correlation, I approach it in a scholarly fashion.. I surely don't approach it in the way that "see, these people are better on average in thing X, they are better!"

I am sorry if I have upset you. I don't think that person's future or fate or whatever is determined by statistical correlations. I hold that IQ has value and I don't step back from it.

What I think is that it is unfortunate that this MBTI is connected to IQ, because MBTI is supposed to be something that's equally good for everyone, regardless of their MBTI type. Now here what we have is that an ability, or a trait, is encoded withing. I think it's unfortunate, but we can work around it.

I think you are sensitive to the discrimination that sensory orientated people face. I understand it; I feel bad by being typed as some idiot who mistakes superman for something real and who believes in healing crystals and and some damned idiot theories. I really resent the bad stereotypes we N people face; I've even began to think that perhaps I'm S instead, because I appreciate reality more, and I keep reality and fantasy separate. I don't know. It would be equally false to state that S people can't comprehend anything further than what is blatantly obvious and in-their-face. The reality is not very much so.

In any case, I'm hoping to work with you to improve the perception of S on this forum. I
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I am very conscious and appreciative of Jennifer's comment in an earlier thread, where she said that many Ns are suffering so much in RL, that they need to blow off some steam here in this forum. This is a valuable argument, but I think we are not doing ourselves or the MBTI a big favour by propagating the myth of the N as some superior being.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

I missed the Nazi argument, although I think I saw the thread somewhere around here. Going by simply what knowledge I've picked up through osmosis over the years, I find it likely there were lots of T types high up in the rankings of the Nazi party -- both ST's and NT's. It seems absurd to me that someone would try to exclude NTs from that list. iNtuitive people might step beyond the tangible boundaries more often and challenge status quo, but we still just are as able to be swinangled into believing in a particular cause, especially if we've been immersed in it for a long time. We have the same human inclinations to turn a blind eye to things that challenge what we want to believe.

Is there a way we approach the topic in a positive way (i.e., "S's are good because...") rather than the negative? I don't know, I'm just brainstorming and trying to think of an approach that would erase as much of the wall of separation as possible... although realistically I think there will always be some friction there...
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
One thing occurs to me is that perhaps this is being looked at from the wrong end. Much as in many cultures certain types of people are seen as better because they posses certain traits (honest to god I find most "achievers" to be the most boring and dull witted of people). Perhaps in defining what traits are desirable we are describing Ns more than Ss and hence it's seen as desirable to be an N and undesirable to be an S?

On these forums it seems that those who are deep and consider things greatly, those who can see past the surface and reveal deeper meaning are treated with more respect... well that sounds more N than S to me.

So perhaps there is a bias against Ss...but there again perhaps we ask for it.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
MYTH: Intuitives ALWAYS intuit/sense the correct pattern and sensors rarely if ever sense/intuit a correct pattern or patterns at all. Pattern detection is regarded as being completely within the domain of intuitiveness and that an intuitive's pattern/connection recognition abilities are rarely if ever incorrect. If an intuitive intuited a pattern or connection between or within events, that pattern is inerrant.

If a sensor intuits (I don't know if this is the proper term for what I'm describing) it's less thorough and comprehensive than an intuitive's. And within intuitives, a dominant intuitive (INJ or ENP) will have superior pattern/connective intuitions than an auxiliary intuitive.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I am too well-aware of the many pitfalls of being an intuitive to have much of a sense of N superiority. Two INs in a marriage can be fun, but you can also do an incredible amount of fumbling and tripping. We have done so many seriously stupid things . . . some days I think we really need someone to take care of us. Someone with some sense. :yes:
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
It is also an incredible myth that N are so helpless that we have to be taken care of. This is one of the most distasteful myths I've come across. Am I the only one who's seen this?
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
It is also an incredible myth that N are so helpless that we have to be taken care of. This is one of the most distasteful myths I've come across. Am I the only one who's seen this?

Well it doesn't help when Ns themselves say they can barely remember to put their shirts on the right way.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Well it doesn't help when Ns themselves say they can barely remember to put their shirts on the right way.
*checks collar and seams* Whew. Frontwards and right side out. Day's going good so far. :nice:
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
MYTH: Intuitives ALWAYS intuit/sense the correct pattern and sensors rarely if ever sense/intuit a correct pattern or patterns at all. Pattern detection is regarded as being completely within the domain of intuitiveness and that an intuitive's pattern/connection recognition abilities are rarely if ever incorrect. If an intuitive intuited a pattern or connection between or within events, that pattern is inerrant.

That's far too extreme.

The allowance is that people who practice a function more (and naturally) will logically be "better with it" than those who have avoided it their whole lives.

So ISxJ's have Ne as their inferior. I don't think you can avoid the conclusion that this function gets developed later in life, and it's far more typical for them to have paranoid fears based on wanton Ne usage, than Ne that is drawing more realistic conclusions.

At the same time, it's not uncommon for those with N as a primary to be severely lacking in their perception of the tangible world. They haven't practiced it, they've ignored it most of their lives, and they are far behind a natural S.

And so on.

It's what logic predicted and what I have experienced personally with the people I interact with.

(I hope this qualifies/explains anything I have personally said in the past on this topic.)

You should also note that since functions develop with practice, some of this can be compensated for. You're really describing "raw" partially developed personalities here.

If a sensor intuits (I don't know if this is the proper term for what I'm describing) it's less thorough and comprehensive than an intuitive's. And within intuitives, a dominant intuitive (INJ or ENP) will have superior pattern/connective intuitions than an auxiliary intuitive.

Theoretically. Just as a dominant judging function with intuition as the auxiliary will tend to evaluate and prioritize those connections better than the dominant intuitive.

But there is overlap, because sometimes dominant judgers people are forced to use their Ne more often, and vice versa.

Well it doesn't help when Ns themselves say they can barely remember to put their shirts on the right way.

In our family, it's the ESFP who routinely puts on his clothes inside-out or backwards or tries to leave the house with only one shoe on.
 

Ghost of the dead horse

filling some space
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
3,553
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Well it doesn't help when Ns themselves say they can barely remember to put their shirts on the right way.

Hee hee.. shirt wrong way = always N thing => leads to person living on the street. So agree 100%.

I am sorry to say but you couldn't have made much worse impression..
 

Lateralus

New member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
6,262
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w4
The only Ns I've met with "common sense" are near the border between S and N (like me). Extreme Ns seem to be very clutzy.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
It is also an incredible myth that N are so helpless that we have to be taken care of. This is one of the most distasteful myths I've come across. Am I the only one who's seen this?

No, I agree 100% with you. I've been self-sufficient in the 'real world' for 7 yrs now, and only recently started having a roommate again, after having lived alone for 4 yrs.

And my bills are always paid on time, and I am good at budgeting.

And I keep my apartment clean.

And I cook my own meals, and have a fully stocked refrigerator.

And I wear clothes that match. (shirt on wrong way? Are you kidding me?? :)

And I know when to take myself to a doctor.

:D
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
No, I agree 100% with you. I've been self-sufficient in the 'real world' for 7 yrs now, and only recently started having a roommate again, after having lived alone for 4 yrs.

And my bills are always paid on time, and I am good at budgeting.

And I keep my apartment clean.

And I cook my own meals, and have a fully stocked refrigerator.

And I wear clothes that match. (shirt on wrong way? Are you kidding me?? :)

And I know when to take myself to a doctor.

:D

I was pretty good at a lot of that stuff until I had kids. I really only put my shirt on wrong if I'm dressing in a terrible hurry, like somebody's at the door and I'm not dressed yet and the kids are running around hollering about it and the dogs are running around barking.

Last year, however, I was running late to pick up the kids from school (lost track of time) and after I got home from picking them up, I realized I was wearing one tennis shoe and one loafer.
 

cascadeco

New member
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
9,083
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I was pretty good at a lot of that stuff until I had kids. I really only put my shirt on wrong if I'm dressing in a terrible hurry, like somebody's at the door and I'm not dressed yet and the kids are running around hollering about it and the dogs are running around barking.

Last year, however, I was running late to pick up the kids from school (lost track of time) and after I got home from picking them up, I realized I was wearing one tennis shoe and one loafer.

Yes, I can see that!!! :) I definitely become more scatterbrained when I feel I'm pulled in lots of directions. Then I will become more forgetful. It's one of my fears of having kids.
 

substitute

New member
Joined
May 27, 2007
Messages
4,601
MBTI Type
ENTP
No, I agree 100% with you. I've been self-sufficient in the 'real world' for 7 yrs now, and only recently started having a roommate again, after having lived alone for 4 yrs.

And my bills are always paid on time, and I am good at budgeting.

And I keep my apartment clean.

And I cook my own meals, and have a fully stocked refrigerator.

And I wear clothes that match. (shirt on wrong way? Are you kidding me?? :)

And I know when to take myself to a doctor.

:D

Exactement. Except it's almost 16 years that I've been self-sufficient. And I give good dinner parties too, which I plan, shop and cook for completely alone, and clean up after them completely by noon the next day. My definitely Sensing mother was absolutely USELESS at all of this stuff and still is.

I was pretty good at a lot of that stuff until I had kids.

I got even better at it after having kids...! Needing to make things right for them was extra motivation on top of my own self-respect.

Interesting... to see the good myths and the bad ones being dispelled! For a minute I thought the whole thread would become a chance for the Sensing minority here to get their own back on the iNtuitive majority. Not that it wouldn't be deserved still, anyway.
 

developer

New member
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
117
MBTI Type
INTJ
I am sorry if I have upset you. I don't think that person's future or fate or whatever is determined by statistical correlations. I hold that IQ has value and I don't step back from it.
.....

I think you are sensitive to the discrimination that sensory orientated people face.
....

In any case, I'm hoping to work with you to improve the perception of S on this forum. I

I am an INTJ. Therefore, I am neither upset, nor do I feel discriminated. I just find this "N = bright and good, S = dumb and shallow" intellectually embarrassing. MBTI is a good theory, let's not drag it down with this kind of misinterpretation.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
5,514
Enneagram
1w2
That's far too extreme.
The allowance is that people who practice a function more (and naturally) will logically be "better with it" than those who have avoided it their whole lives.

I don't disagree with that. But what I find is that people take different paths to reach the same conclusions. That's was the basic point of what my myth was.

So ISxJ's have Ne as their inferior. I don't think you can avoid the conclusion that this function gets developed later in life, and it's far more typical for them to have paranoid fears based on wanton Ne usage, than Ne that is drawing more realistic conclusions.

Proper conclusion drawing to me is based on healthy use S and N. N has an easier time connecting and seeing implications in events. Then N must support their connections with evidence and data. That's the province of S. What I see is N making inferences with very little support, which prompted me to write that myth. I don't see N working like that based on my experiences. I see N making connections sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. Sometimes N attributes meaning and significance to where this is none, but N is convinced that something's there when it's not.

That's why I say that intuitives (at least the ones that populate MBTI forums) are overdependent and overvalue N and devalue S. Which is why these intelligence threads and N superiority keep popping up. If it wasn't a problem (a noticeable one at that) why does the subject keep reoccurring? People don't rehash topics that have been settled to satisfaction, hence the phrase "beating a dead horse."

Just as you say Ne is the inferior function of ISJs, Si is the inferior function of ENPs. People speak as though sensors are incapable of connecting events, or when they do it's not as accurate. I don't believe that. I do believe that ISJs and ESPs may not connect the dots as quickly, but they don't lack the ability and when they do connect I think they have better evidence.

You know what else I notice? I'll read on the forum about how analytical INFJs are with their tertiary Ti. But I don't see that same credit given to ESJs or ISPs who are adept with their tertiary Ne or Ni. I've come across a fair amount of ESJs who use their tertiary Ne quite well and all of these people aren't 50+ who are beginning to feel comfortable delving into inferior functions. I do very well with most ISTPs I come into contact with and I believe it's because we bond over through Ni. Do I think I'm better at it then they are? Ummm, maybe although that doesn't mean any observations they make using Ti-Ni are less accurate than my standalone Ni. But people rarely, if ever recognize this usage in ESJs or ISPs.

At the same time, it's not uncommon for those with N as a primary to be severely lacking in their perception of the tangible world. They haven't practiced it, they've ignored it most of their lives, and they are far behind a natural S.

And so on.

It's what logic predicted and what I have experienced personally with the people I interact with.

You and I have very different experiences with people. I've thrown so much MBTI into the trash because it breaks down after a certain point when you look at how people actually behave and when you find out what their motivations are for their behavior, so much so that I can barely type people beyond two functions unless they're a textbook example of type.
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
I got even better at it after having kids...! Needing to make things right for them was extra motivation on top of my own self-respect.
I needed to make things right for my kids, too, but for me, that meant something different than the concrete things. That kind of stuff was not what bothered me about my childhood. The relational instability and my mom's musical boyfriends bothered me a lot more, so I focused on keeping my relationship with their daddy happy more than on the house, etc. I was so overwhelmed I had to prioritize and that was about the best I could do. My brother was apparently traumatized by the material stuff more. He is very good about the bills, etc. He loves his wife very much, but sometimes I think she needs to kick his butt. :D
 

ptgatsby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
MBTI Type
ISTP
You know what else I notice? I'll read on the forum about how analytical INFJs are with their tertiary Ti. But I don't see that same credit given to ESJs or ISPs who are adept with their tertiary Ne or Ni. I've come across a fair amount of ESJs who use their tertiary Ne quite well and all of these people aren't 50+ who are beginning to feel comfortable delving into inferior functions. I do very well with most ISTPs I come into contact with and I believe it's because we bond over through Ni. Do I think I'm better at it then they are? Ummm, maybe although that doesn't mean any observations they make using Ti-Ni are less accurate than my standalone Ni. But people rarely, if ever recognize this usage in ESJs or ISPs.

This is an excellent point :yes:

The only thing I disagree with is that we somehow "bond" with people down to that level. I can see an argument for degree of trait seperation (with extremes being big problems), but once you move beyond your top preferences (3rd/4th + shadow), it seems that you could pretty much get along with anyone.

Which is very true. You can. Most people that can't seem to use "they aren't like me and I don't like them" rather than "they aren't like me so I need to adapt to interact with them", which is the point of MBTI.
 
Top