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Js who think they are P

Poki

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It just came to me that an unhealthy J can view themselves as their P counter type. They have this image of who they think they are and they believe it to an extent that they try to be someone they are not.

One thing that drove this was the folly of thinking men thread. How a type can believe themselves to be objective when they are really subjective. They will then always feel inferior because their pride and ego keeps getting hurt because they are truly subjective. What happens is they block their perception to objective data and in the process help them believe they are objective people furthering the idea that they are objective. Hence why J types have perception as either tertiary and inferior.

ok, to try and get discussion I will stop before digging to much deeper.
 

Poki

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This is pure logic, so feel free to bash away.
 

Nyx

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I definitely have had a problem with this. I thought I was a P for the longest time until I realized I was seeing myself incorrectly. I thought I was a certain way. At my core I am a J( I get things done as early as possible and am quick to take opportunities/make decisions), but have some P-ish tendencies (My room is messy!). I think that's an INFJ thing though.
 

simulatedworld

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One thing that drove this was the folly of thinking men thread. How a type can believe themselves to be objective when they are really subjective. They will then always feel inferior because their pride and ego keeps getting hurt because they are truly subjective. What happens is they block their perception to objective data and in the process help them believe they are objective people furthering the idea that they are objective. Hence why J types have perception as either tertiary and inferior.

Um, J types have perception as dominant or auxiliary, just like Ps and everybody else.

IJ types have perception as the dominant. EJ types still have it as auxiliary. I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here; it's not as if being a J means that your perceptive functions are all bad.

As for bolded part, I've actually seen that in Fi users (xxFP) types significantly more often than in any J type. They invariably describe themselves as "extremely logical" because they truly believe that their arbitrary feelings = logic. It's pretty silly at times.


I definitely have had a problem with this. I thought I was a P for the longest time until I realized I was seeing myself incorrectly. I thought I was a certain way. At my core, I am a J, but have some P-ish tendencies. I think that's an INFJ thing though.

Introverted types in general are a little confusing because the J ones are dominant in the perceiving function and vice versa for the Ps.

If you're INFJ then your dominant function is Ni, which is the perceiving one, so this might create some confusion for you.
 

Oaky

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I've thought of this before. I actually do think there are Js who think they are Ps. I've seen J-ness in a lot of Ps in this forum and in experience.
 

swordpath

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I have the lowercase J for a reason. I am a J, but I can have really enlarged P-ness sometimes.
 

Poki

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Um, J types have perception as dominant or auxiliary, just like Ps and everybody else.
IJ types have perception as the dominant. EJ types still have it as auxiliary. I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here; it's not as if being a J means that your perceptive functions are all bad.

As for bolded part, I've actually seen that in Fi users (xxFP) types significantly more often than in any J type. They invariably describe themselves as "extremely logical" because they truly believe that their arbitrary feelings = logic. It's pretty silly at times.




Introverted types in general are a little confusing because the J ones are dominant in the perceiving function and vice versa for the Ps.

If you're INFJ then your dominant function is Ni, which is the perceiving one, so this might create some confusion for you.

But its an internal perception. Hence they are driven by what they believe internally not externally and its not that they have an inferior external perception, but they pick and choose what they want to see externally.

In support of what Jag said in another post. Its not that my Se is any stronger then someone elses, its just that I block and control less of what I see.

I have the lowercase J for a reason. I am a J, but I can have really enlarged P-ness sometimes.
Ahhhhhhhh............. enlarge P-ness. I would say stop, but I laugh everytime :)
 

Poki

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Ok, this morning my son wouldnt say "I love you" to someone when he was mad. I tried to talk to him and he would grunt. He then asked for me to play a song and I told him I would only play it if he agreed to what I said. He finally agreed, and I asked him to repeat it and he grunted. I told him I would not play it until he repeated what I said. A minute later he asked me again what I had said because he wasnt listening so he could repeat it.

He believed he was right in his feeling so he wasnt gonna say "I love you" because he was mad and he wasnt gonna listen to anyone(block external perception) because he was validate in his mad feeling. I simply let him know that its alright to be mad and still let someone know you love them and thats what I made him repeat. But its his stubborness driven by his feelings that caused him to block any external perception. He basically shut out Ne and Te and got stuck in Si and Fi.
 

Poki

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As for bolded part, I've actually seen that in Fi users (xxFP) types significantly more often than in any J type. They invariably describe themselves as "extremely logical" because they truly believe that their arbitrary feelings = logic. It's pretty silly at times.

Yes and in support of my OP in IxTJ types with Fi they steer their perception so this isnt as noticeable. They prefer to stay on the subjects that they have learned that are objective, but they arent themselves internally objective. They run off of the detail in Si that is pulled in through Te blocking out parts of Ne that seem to cause Fi unwanted feelings. Its hard to pin down because its a circle that just magnifies until they reach a point in their life when they are forced to change.
 

01011010

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Yes and in support of my OP in IxTJ types with Fi they steer their perception so this isnt as noticeable. They prefer to stay on the subjects that they have learned that are objective, but they arent themselves internally objective. They run off of the detail in Si that is pulled in through Te blocking out parts of Ne that seem to cause Fi unwanted feelings. Its hard to pin down because its a circle that just magnifies until they reach a point in their life when they are forced to change.

:whistling:

I think you're onto something.
 
B

brainheart

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simulatedworld;872498 As for bolded part said:
Really? Lots o' other T-types agree with you, so I guess you've seen it, but I've never done this.

I would never ever ever call myself extremely logical. Ever. Everything I say is, "Well... I think this, but.. that's just me, you know. And it has nothing to do with logic. It has to do with feeling. That's not to say I don't appreciate logic in others- and that's not to say I don't employ logic at times, but it's not my home turf, to be sure.

I may be opinionated when it comes to my likes and dislikes and my expectations of myself, but I rarely shift that judgment to what I expect of others. (Not that that has to do with logic, but it does have to do with judgment and perception.)
 

Moiety

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As for bolded part, I've actually seen that in Fi users (xxFP) types significantly more often than in any J type. They invariably describe themselves as "extremely logical" because they truly believe that their arbitrary feelings = logic. It's pretty silly at times..

Don't confuse your definition of "logical" with coherence. Feelings are no more arbitrary than the need to adhere to reasoned logic. You can't control feelings, but values don't just pop up out of the blue. Values are not arbitrary but a reaction to the things we see and experience. Logic is not arbitrary but a reaction to the things we see and experience. Coherence and congruence are the Ji user's way to make sense of both. There were always be mature and immature TPs and FPs. The use of the word "arbitrary" implies logic somehow can control anything. It can't. It's a loop over which Ts have as much control as we Fs have over our feelings.



Obviously this is simplifying things since all Ts have F and all Fs have T.
 

Poki

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Don't confuse your definition of "logical" with coherence. Feelings are no more arbitrary than the need to adhere to reasoned logic. You can't control feelings, but values don't just pop up out of the blue. Values are not arbitrary but a reaction to the things we see and experience. Logic is not arbitrary but a reaction to the things we see and experience. Coherence and congruence are the Ji user's way to make sense of both. There were always be mature and immature TPs and FPs. The use of the word "arbitrary" implies logic somehow can control anything. It can't. It's a loop over which Ts have as much control as we Fs have over our feelings.



Obviously this is simplifying things since all Ts have F and all Fs have T.


I can tell you that I think Fi can make judgements based on logic, but its more of a subconcious judgement. An Fi types goes on "this feels right".
 

simulatedworld

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Yes and in support of my OP in IxTJ types with Fi they steer their perception so this isnt as noticeable. They prefer to stay on the subjects that they have learned that are objective, but they arent themselves internally objective. They run off of the detail in Si that is pulled in through Te blocking out parts of Ne that seem to cause Fi unwanted feelings. Its hard to pin down because its a circle that just magnifies until they reach a point in their life when they are forced to change.

HANK HILL!!!!


Don't confuse your definition of "logical" with coherence. Feelings are no more arbitrary than the need to adhere to reasoned logic. You can't control feelings, but values don't just pop up out of the blue. Values are not arbitrary but a reaction to the things we see and experience. Logic is not arbitrary but a reaction to the things we see and experience. Coherence and congruence are the Ji user's way to make sense of both. There were always be mature and immature TPs and FPs. The use of the word "arbitrary" implies logic somehow can control anything. It can't. It's a loop over which Ts have as much control as we Fs have over our feelings.



Obviously this is simplifying things since all Ts have F and all Fs have T.

While your points here are fine, none of them contradict what I said and my original point still stands. Point being, FPs seem to overestimate their own logical abilities because they mistake personal feelings for logic--I didn't say anything about TPs and their ability to use or not use logic. I don't see many TPs claiming to be extremely in touch with their emotions; most of us acknowledge our weakness in this area--and yet, FPs still seem to think they're highly proficient in both emotional and logical thought, which most aren't.
 

The Outsider

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While your points here are fine, none of them contradict what I said and my original point still stands. Point being, FPs seem to overestimate their own logical abilities because they mistake personal feelings for logic--I didn't say anything about TPs and their ability to use or not use logic. I don't see many TPs claiming to be extremely in touch with their emotions; most of us acknowledge our weakness in this area--and yet, FPs still seem to think they're highly proficient in both emotional and logical thought, which most aren't.

If you want to restrict yourself based on some abstract theory designed to divide people into 4-letter codes, knock yourself out.
 

Little Linguist

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I have trouble figuring out if I am a J or a P because if you ask 20 people, you'll probably get 40 different answers...gahhh! Drives me nuts.
 

Poki

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HANK HILL!!!!




While your points here are fine, none of them contradict what I said and my original point still stands. Point being, FPs seemto overestimate their own logical abilities because they mistake personal feelings for logic--I didn't say anything about TPs and their ability to use or not use logic. I don't see many TPs claiming to be extremely in touch with their emotions; most of us acknowledge our weakness in this area--and yet, FPs still seem to think they're highly proficient in both emotional and logical thought, which most aren't.

Ok, to go against what you said I bolded the problem. I was gonna slam you, but will go about this nicely:) Something about it hit the wrong button. In an NF type Te is used to backup Fi. So yes they WILL use logic to back up feelings. I would like for you to back up your feelings with out trying to use logic. I am just curious if it can be done as Fi types also ALWAYS have Te.

edit: Ok, I didnt fully explain myself to contradiction. Do not make Fi feel defensive and you wont have Te focused at you in that manner. So no its not type, but type relations.
 
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