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(Si) Sensotardation [vs. (Se) Sensotardation]

Z Buck McFate

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So I’m trying to understand Si and what (Si) sensotardation might look like. And I think I’ve come up with an example. I’d appreciate any opinions about how accurate or inaccurate this example is.

I think I need to start with an example of (Se) sensotardation for comparison. Sometimes when I’m driving over a long stretch, the sun sets without my noticing and: I’ll either forget to take off my sunglasses, forget to turn on the headlights, or forget to do both- then I’ll struggle to see until someone points it out to me. Sometimes I notice it on my own, but usually only after struggling with it for a short while; I only notice the discomfort of ‘struggling to see’ on my own when it gets really difficult.

In that same vein- I think (Si) sensotarded events sneak up on me in a very similar way. The example that comes to mind is the tendency I have to take things too seriously (and from what I’ve heard/read, it’s a common problem for INFJs). I’ll just be going about my business and a generally heavy feeling will start weighing me down. I mean, it’s kind of ridiculous- because sometimes all it takes is having someone say, “You are taking this too seriously” for me to realize that it’s the truth. Yet- when left to my own devices, it’s something that systematically escapes my notice.

Is this (Si) sensotardation? I realize that it isn’t exclusively Si- that’s it’s a matter of different functions working together- but often times one particularly weak function can contribute to the collective process yielding inaccurate results. So, does the experience of ‘not noticing that I am taking something too seriously’ sound primarily like a result of weak Si?

I’ve considered that Fi must have a role in this as well. But it *seems* to me like it’s not so much an Fi issue (at the core) as it is a weak Si affecting/agitating my Fi.

Opinions?

**Also: can anyone contribute other examples of (Se) sensotardation vs. (Si) sensotardation, to help distinguish the difference between the two? Again- I realize it’s tricky because it’s never a case of one function working (or not working) in isolation- even my ‘sunglasses/headlights’ (Se) sensotardation example bears traces of (Si) sensotardation (I suppose if it happens on a regular basis, it’s more an example of (Si) sensotardation, right?).
 

Engler

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I've always been under the impression that underdeveloped Si (i.e. Si sensotardation) results in dangerously inconsistent behavior, extreme impracticality, and the inability to retain data.

In fact, it's always seemed to me that solemnity can be attributed to introverted judging functions (such as Si).
 

Z Buck McFate

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I've always been under the impression that underdeveloped Si (i.e. Si sensotardation) results in dangerously inconsistent behavior, extreme impracticality, and the inability to retain data.

In fact, it's always seemed to me that solemnity can be attributed to introverted judging functions (such as Si).

I don’t personally know any Si doms very well- which is mainly why I posted this here, hoping to get some Si dom feedback. That being said: from what I’ve read, I gather that Si doms can tend to be somewhat rigid about details in their environment- they know which details in their direct environment affect them positively (and/or negatively) and they tend to be stubborn about maintaining (or avoiding) contact with said details. They supposedly crave the ‘tried and true’ experiences (with people, places, etc). Could this rigidity be the “solemnity” you’re referring to?

And I guess I can see how an underdeveloped Si could lead more action-oriented people toward dangerous behavior and/or extreme impracticality. If someone isn’t aware of the extent to which something in their direct environment affects them negatively, they’re less likely to be wary of it. I’m not sure which function dom this would be referring to- but I suspect Si deficiency works differently in a Ni dom.
 

BlackCat

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First off, excellent, excellent thread topic. Finally some actual discussion about the theory. :D

In that same vein- I think (Si) sensotarded events sneak up on me in a very similar way. The example that comes to mind is the tendency I have to take things too seriously (and from what I’ve heard/read, it’s a common problem for INFJs). I’ll just be going about my business and a generally heavy feeling will start weighing me down. I mean, it’s kind of ridiculous- because sometimes all it takes is having someone say, “You are taking this too seriously” for me to realize that it’s the truth. Yet- when left to my own devices, it’s something that systematically escapes my notice.

This sounds like a lack of extroverted sensing and not introverted sensing.

When you need a wake up to see reality like this, it's because you're stuck in NiTi mode and you're blind to what's actually before you (I'm guessing). You aren't taking in the external tangible factors and you aren't taking in all of the relevant facts in the situation rather than what's brewing in your head. That would be a lack of Extroverted Sensing.

More on Se sensotardation- as I said before failing to look around and see what's actually there rather than what you're thinking about and what your personal impressions are. Other things I've observed are Se-tards seem resistant to taking action in their daily lives. When I start talking about things that need to be done with Ns, particularly IN__ people, they just seem to say "yeah I'll do it later", they just seem to be resistant to actually doing anything. IN__ people also don't really like to push people I've noticed, they are bad at motivating people to do things by "forcing" them to, by exerting themselves mentally (I imagine some INTJs are exempt from this, especially the highly integrated 5's who have many 8 traits with that Te).

I think that you've pretty much got it otherwise with the things that you experience like the thing with the sun setting.

As for Si sensotardation, look at EN_Ps. They have pretty bad short term memory and don't pick up on random details, they just get the gist of what someone is saying or of a situation. They seem to improvise almost everything, they hate bringing up the past. It just seems to manifest itself in having a really bad short term memory (unless it's something that has a profound effect on them, and even then it is still fuzzy to them) and paying little to no attention to detail. When people nit pick EN_Ps about details they very quickly get very annoyed and frustrated, since it's an apparent weakness. With ENFPs they get more emotional and angry, with ENTPs they get more aggressive and ruthless and less tactful towards the person. EN_Ps also don't really seem to learn from the past unless it's a pattern that they notice with Ne.

Just a few random observations.
 

Xenon

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I've been reading some of the threads at the top and trying to become more familiar with functions, and this seems like a good thread for going over a few sensing examples. One of the first threads I read here when I was lurking was the Sensotard moments thread. Most of them seem like obvious failures of Se, since they involve people failing to notice something right in front of them, and completely obvious to anyone else. I can see how these moments would get the biggest laughs, and that's why the thread was so fun to read about.

I'll post some examples from the thread that don't seem like clear cut Se failures, and perhaps people can give their opinions.

From Tallulah:
I'll forget how far I am into the showering process and have to start completely over because I was daydreaming.
Is this more of a Si-tard moment (short-term memory failure?) or a Se-tard moment (not paying attention to what was happening in the first place?) Could it be either, or both?

Several posters mentioned forgetting to eat, and this seems like both to me, because it requires lack of attention both to your present state of hunger (Se) and to the day's schedule and what is supposed to happen when (Si).

Some of CaptainChick's examples seem like pretty clear Si-tard moments:
- I forget the day, the month, and sadly, yes, even the year sometimes. I rarely, if ever know the date. (LOL, does this even qualify as a sensotardation?)

- Birthdays, holidays, "special days", they tend to slip my mind.

- I AM GOD-AWFUL AT LABORATORY EXPERIMENTS!!!

- Other than strictly kinesthetic pursuits, I can never learn anything by doing "hands-on" application.
The first two I'd say definitely relate to Si. The last two examples aren't so clear: there might be some Ti difficulty in there as well (I've read Ti has to do with learning by doing, or interacting with information).

Anyone have thoughts on these, or other examples?

Personally I have a lot more problems with Se. My Si use isn't bad at all. And as Jeffster described, I do have some serious problems with failing to take action in my life, especially new and unfamiliar action.
 

Z Buck McFate

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This sounds like a lack of extroverted sensing and not introverted sensing.
When you need a wake up to see reality like this, it's because you're stuck in NiTi mode and you're blind to what's actually before you (I'm guessing). You aren't taking in the external tangible factors and you aren't taking in all of the relevant facts in the situation rather than what's brewing in your head. That would be a lack of Extroverted Sensing.

More on Se sensotardation- as I said before failing to look around and see what's actually there rather than what you're thinking about and what your personal impressions are. Other things I've observed are Se-tards seem resistant to taking action in their daily lives. When I start talking about things that need to be done with Ns, particularly IN__ people, they just seem to say "yeah I'll do it later", they just seem to be resistant to actually doing anything. IN__ people also don't really like to push people I've noticed, they are bad at motivating people to do things by "forcing" them to, by exerting themselves mentally (I imagine some INTJs are exempt from this, especially the highly integrated 5's who have many 8 traits with that Te).

I think that you've pretty much got it otherwise with the things that you experience like the thing with the sun setting.

As for Si sensotardation, look at EN_Ps. They have pretty bad short term memory and don't pick up on random details, they just get the gist of what someone is saying or of a situation. They seem to improvise almost everything, they hate bringing up the past. It just seems to manifest itself in having a really bad short term memory (unless it's something that has a profound effect on them, and even then it is still fuzzy to them) and paying little to no attention to detail. When people nit pick EN_Ps about details they very quickly get very annoyed and frustrated, since it's an apparent weakness. With ENFPs they get more emotional and angry, with ENTPs they get more aggressive and ruthless and less tactful towards the person. EN_Ps also don't really seem to learn from the past unless it's a pattern that they notice with Ne.

I want to state for the record, again, all I understand about Si is that which I’ve read in books. So I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m just trying to marry the facts I’ve read with the descriptions presented in this here forum.

Being aware of an emotion I am experiencing in the present moment is part of the Si function, right? I thought that Se was about noticing objective details, apart from any subjective affect evoked by those details. The Se function is engaged when we are focused on those objective details. But our Si is engaged when the focus shifts to our subjective experience of those details. Even though much of the affect we experience from some present detail is a result of past experiences- Si is about being aware of the emotional state we are currently experiencing. Am I wrong about this?

I recognize the Si-tard examples you mentioned for a Ne dom. I lived with an ENFP for close to ten years and witnessed total Ne dom Si-tardation in its full glory. Every day was brand new; he had very little recall of past experiences, hated bringing up the past and he was a master of improvisation. It earned him the nicknames ‘Jive Turkey’ and ‘Captain Superlative’ (being unable to rate according to past experiences, everything was either the ‘best ever’ or ‘worst ever’).

Isn’t it possible, though, that underdeveloped Si could exhibit differently in a Ni dom? It just seems to me that I am sometimes so focused on the potential of a situation that I completely lose sight of how the actual situation is affecting me. It’s almost a vicious cycle really- the more unpleasantly my direct environment affects me, the more I focus on the future and potentials. With taking things too seriously- I’ll get really grumpy and serious without even realizing it. It really does take another person- usually someone asking if they did something to make me angry- to make me realize I’ve become grumpy in the first place. Because this involves (lack of) awareness of a present emotional state, rather than awareness of objective details in the immediate environment- wouldn’t it be more (Si) sensotarded?

And blankpages: I’ve never made it through the entire “Sensotard” thread, but this post was my favorite.

yesterday morning i was flossing my teeth... when i was finished, instead of throwing away the used floss, i set it on the counter and proceeded to chuck the entire floss dispenser in the toilet :doh:

I’m voting on this, and the one you quoted by Tallulah about the shower, both being primarily Se-tarded.
 

BlackCat

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Being aware of an emotion I am experiencing in the present moment is part of the Si function, right? I thought that Se was about noticing objective details, apart from any subjective affect evoked by those details. The Se function is engaged when we are focused on those objective details. But our Si is engaged when the focus shifts to our subjective experience of those details. Even though much of the affect we experience from some present detail is a result of past experiences- Si is about being aware of the emotional state we are currently experiencing. Am I wrong about this?

I was under the impression that people with good Fi were good with knowing their own emotional states, and that Si was good with understanding your physical bodily state among the other things sensory related that it does.

Isn’t it possible, though, that underdeveloped Si could exhibit differently in a Ni dom?

Well of course, but I don't think that what you're experiencing is a lack of Si per se... but who am I to tell you that.
 

raz

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Si is mostly about comparisons to your surroundings. It's about taking what you know about a situation and comparing it to what's actually going on. I think my heavy introversion causes Se-tard moments for myself. I get lost in my head, just enough to detach myself from my surroundings, but enough to be able to know what's going on around me. However, there are plenty of times where I just miss things going on around me because I'm in my head.

I'm thinking Si-tard moments are mostly when you just neglect to do the comparison. Most of my Se-tard moments are when I start to make mistakes because I'm lost in my head, like at work checking out customers. I think this is actually more Si. Every customer has the same routine to follow. Greet them, ring up their stuff, get their money, bag stuff, tell them to go away, rinse and repeat. The Si-tard moments are when I forget to like, get them to sign a receipt or bag an item.

Like for instance, an example of Si was right now, replying to this thread. Every morning I check forums, and I don't ever expect many replies in the mornings. However, I just refreshed this thread and saw a reply while I typed this. I thought, "Hmm, a reply, that doesn't normally happen. There might be some more general behavior going on here that might be unexpected." It's Si that pops up like that and tells me, "What's happening right now is not what normally happens." Putting it like that, it's more like Si pops up, tells me something is off, and then dispatches Te to put me on guard.

I like Si a lot more for my ability to recall. I always wondered how people forgot things that happened in their life. I thought, what were you doing while you did it? It's YOUR life, you can't remember the details? WTF? ><
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

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Okay ... let me think ...


As long as I'm not lost in my own thoughts (a frequent occurrence), I'm pretty good at seeing what's in front of me. However, I'm not good at remembering what I've seen.


I'm terrible at remembering small details or noticing them in the first place ... yet, I'll remember random things that no one expects me to remember.


I'm bad with exact quotes.


In some ways, my memory is impeccable. In other ways, it's horrific.


I understand my memory about as much as I understand my feelings, which is not much. :D
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

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First off, excellent, excellent thread topic. Finally some actual discussion about the theory. :D



This sounds like a lack of extroverted sensing and not introverted sensing.

When you need a wake up to see reality like this, it's because you're stuck in NiTi mode and you're blind to what's actually before you (I'm guessing). You aren't taking in the external tangible factors and you aren't taking in all of the relevant facts in the situation rather than what's brewing in your head. That would be a lack of Extroverted Sensing.

More on Se sensotardation- as I said before failing to look around and see what's actually there rather than what you're thinking about and what your personal impressions are. Other things I've observed are Se-tards seem resistant to taking action in their daily lives. When I start talking about things that need to be done with Ns, particularly IN__ people, they just seem to say "yeah I'll do it later", they just seem to be resistant to actually doing anything. IN__ people also don't really like to push people I've noticed, they are bad at motivating people to do things by "forcing" them to, by exerting themselves mentally (I imagine some INTJs are exempt from this, especially the highly integrated 5's who have many 8 traits with that Te).

I think that you've pretty much got it otherwise with the things that you experience like the thing with the sun setting.

As for Si sensotardation, look at EN_Ps. They have pretty bad short term memory and don't pick up on random details, they just get the gist of what someone is saying or of a situation. They seem to improvise almost everything, they hate bringing up the past. It just seems to manifest itself in having a really bad short term memory (unless it's something that has a profound effect on them, and even then it is still fuzzy to them) and paying little to no attention to detail. When people nit pick EN_Ps about details they very quickly get very annoyed and frustrated, since it's an apparent weakness. With ENFPs they get more emotional and angry, with ENTPs they get more aggressive and ruthless and less tactful towards the person. EN_Ps also don't really seem to learn from the past unless it's a pattern that they notice with Ne.

Just a few random observations.

Yeah. This stuff. :laugh:
 

raz

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Okay ... let me think ...


As long as I'm not lost in my own thoughts (a frequent occurrence), I'm pretty good at seeing what's in front of me. However, I'm not good at remembering what I've seen.


I'm terrible at remembering small details or noticing them in the first place ... yet, I'll remember random things that no one expects me to remember.


I'm bad with exact quotes.


In some ways, my memory is impeccable. In other ways, it's horrific.


I understand my memory about as much as I understand my feelings, which is not much. :D

Don't worry, Fe is completely lost on me. I can only mimic Fe by imitating what I see other FJs doing by using Si + Te.
 

Asterion

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Okay, I had this crazy dream this morning, I continually forgot important little details, names of people, and confused the specifics of where people wanted me to go... and there was one point at which I turned up at the wrong place, and suddenly lost track of the entire day and it went dark, and I was just lost. For the entire dream, I felt... well, terrible. I've had to deal with that shit my whole life, for example, I can't keep track of anything in my hands... and hence lost my wallet twice in the same week (the first was found by a nice woman that yelled at me, the second I never got it back :\ ). I can remember things like theories, it's more about keeping track of everything. There's Sitardation for ya... and I wouldn't have realized what it was without that weird dream...
 

Heart&Brain

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Okay, I had this crazy dream this morning, I continually forgot important little details, names of people, and confused the specifics of where people wanted me to go... and there was one point at which I turned up at the wrong place, and suddenly lost track of the entire day and it went dark, and I was just lost. For the entire dream, I felt... well, terrible. (snip...) I can remember things like theories, it's more about keeping track of everything. There's Sitardation for ya... and I wouldn't have realized what it was without that weird dream...

Oh shit, this is eerily recognisable... :shock: Thanks for sharing!

I've had a lot of these terribly stressful dreams in the years where I was depressed and felt I was loosing myself and was hopeless in general.

The dreams were a little different each time, but it was always the same haunted feeling of "I'm-late-and-lost-and-keep-losing-things". Sometimes also running around lost halfnaked or having the wrong clothes and not able to find the right ones or no time to look for them because I have to be on the move. Often I'd be rushing around over-packed with suitcases and bags and important stuff I kept loosing track of or were much too much to carry or were the wrong things with no way to get to the right things. Being late and wrongly equipped and not able to find where I'm going to or who or what I was supposed to be looking for, running around like a headless chicken.

Some were real nightmares, like having my baby-son in a suitcase, the suitcase on a bus and the bus driving away without me, me running after it trying to remember where it was headed to and not knowing how to get there first.
Some were just exhausting and I'd wake up all stressed and feeling hugely inadeaquate. The dreams became fewer as my depression went away and they are very rare these days. Don't miss them AT ALL!

Interesting if this subconscious stress is an expression of aspirational / inferior / disturbing Si in ENxPs. At least when we are not feeling strong in our Ne-Fi (Te) core.
 

cascadeco

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First off, excellent, excellent thread topic. Finally some actual discussion about the theory. :D



This sounds like a lack of extroverted sensing and not introverted sensing.

When you need a wake up to see reality like this, it's because you're stuck in NiTi mode and you're blind to what's actually before you (I'm guessing). You aren't taking in the external tangible factors and you aren't taking in all of the relevant facts in the situation rather than what's brewing in your head. That would be a lack of Extroverted Sensing.

More on Se sensotardation- as I said before failing to look around and see what's actually there rather than what you're thinking about and what your personal impressions are. Other things I've observed are Se-tards seem resistant to taking action in their daily lives. When I start talking about things that need to be done with Ns, particularly IN__ people, they just seem to say "yeah I'll do it later", they just seem to be resistant to actually doing anything. IN__ people also don't really like to push people I've noticed, they are bad at motivating people to do things by "forcing" them to, by exerting themselves mentally (I imagine some INTJs are exempt from this, especially the highly integrated 5's who have many 8 traits with that Te).

I think that you've pretty much got it otherwise with the things that you experience like the thing with the sun setting.

As for Si sensotardation, look at EN_Ps. They have pretty bad short term memory and don't pick up on random details, they just get the gist of what someone is saying or of a situation. They seem to improvise almost everything, they hate bringing up the past. It just seems to manifest itself in having a really bad short term memory (unless it's something that has a profound effect on them, and even then it is still fuzzy to them) and paying little to no attention to detail. When people nit pick EN_Ps about details they very quickly get very annoyed and frustrated, since it's an apparent weakness. With ENFPs they get more emotional and angry, with ENTPs they get more aggressive and ruthless and less tactful towards the person. EN_Ps also don't really seem to learn from the past unless it's a pattern that they notice with Ne.

Just a few random observations.

I think you make a lot of great observations!

Z Buck McFate said:
Being aware of an emotion I am experiencing in the present moment is part of the Si function, right? I thought that Se was about noticing objective details, apart from any subjective affect evoked by those details. The Se function is engaged when we are focused on those objective details. But our Si is engaged when the focus shifts to our subjective experience of those details. Even though much of the affect we experience from some present detail is a result of past experiences- Si is about being aware of the emotional state we are currently experiencing. Am I wrong about this?

I don't think I've ever associated Si with awareness of emotional state. Si is more about data-gathering, comparing what's there and contrasting it to what you already know or from the past -- it's analogous to Ni, just a different focus of data/perception.

Honestly, this is a reason I don't take cognitive functions terribly seriously these days. All of the 'theory' is well and good, but if you dig into it a lot you'll find many contradictions. And trying to pinpoint an isolated cognitive function to an isolated behavior/tendency isn't a great approach, because all of this stuff tends to be interconnected.

Also...I think it is quite possible to make an argument for any single behavior using any of the functions - just throw the words 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' into the mix and you can justify yourself or anyone else using any of the 8 functions. Another example of this - just look at the people who consider themselves one type on here for many months, building all sorts of arguments for why they're using such-and-such functions for such and such behavior or perception, and then they change their type and can make a whole different set of arguments to justify their personality using a different set of functions. Not directed at anyone, as it applies to several people on the site - just something I think about now and then. It's interesting. :yes:
 

Z Buck McFate

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I was under the impression that people with good Fi were good with knowing their own emotional states, and that Si was good with understanding your physical bodily state among the other things sensory related that it does.

I don't think I've ever associated Si with awareness of emotional state. Si is more about data-gathering, comparing what's there and contrasting it to what you already know or from the past -- it's analogous to Ni, just a different focus of data/perception.

This is what I’m having trouble understanding about Si. The descriptions I’ve read vary on this distinction. All the online definitions of Si that I’ve found tend to omit any inclusion of ‘affect’ in the data that gets ‘collected and compared to past experiences’- but I haven’t seen any explicitly exclude it either.

As for offline sources, both books I have about functions do clearly state that ‘affect’ is part of that Si data.

From Lenore Thompson’s ‘Owner’s Manual’:

“Introverted Sensation gives us the will to accumulate information- names, dates, numbers, statistics, references, guidelines and so forth- related to the things that matter to us. And this is an important qualification. Such facts are highly selective, an attribute perhaps easiest to see in our stereotypes about gender. [She compares the information a woman might remember to that which a man might remember.]
The point is not to indulge in sexist generalizations but to emphasize that the facts we acquire by way of Introverted Sensation are more than information. They’re part of our self-experience. They define the specific nature of our passions and interests. They become our basis for taking in new data.”

And this is from Gary & Margaret Hartzler’s “Functions of Type”:

“…the Conservator [Si] in each of us is sensitive to what is going on in our own bodies. The Conservator knows when we are hungry, when we have had enough to eat, when we are sleepy, and, most importantly, what our emotional state is. It readily recognizes both joy and frustration, both the highs and lows of everyday life. People with this awareness don’t realize that others don’t have this awareness.
The Conservator remembers both the details about a situation and his subjective internal reaction to it.”
So- that's why I'm confused about whether or not 'affect' is part of that Si 'data'.


Honestly, this is a reason I don't take cognitive functions terribly seriously these days. All of the 'theory' is well and good, but if you dig into it a lot you'll find many contradictions. And trying to pinpoint an isolated cognitive function to an isolated behavior/tendency isn't a great approach, because all of this stuff tends to be interconnected.

Yeah, I did mention this in the op. It’s never a matter of one function working in isolation. I’m inclined to think the way an underdeveloped function plays in the collaborative process is going to vary according to an individual’s hierarchy of functions- and even then it’s probably going to vary even further according to individuals. But I also think that probing into it reveals some interesting correlations.


I see your point about taking it too seriously. But when it isn't taken too seriously, all the 'theory' can be a helpful means to better understanding ourselves and other people. IMO, anyway.
 

BlahBlahNounBlah

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Also...I think it is quite possible to make an argument for any single behavior using any of the functions - just throw the words 'healthy' or 'unhealthy' into the mix and you can justify yourself or anyone else using any of the 8 functions. Another example of this - just look at the people who consider themselves one type on here for many months, building all sorts of arguments for why they're using such-and-such functions for such and such behavior or perception, and then they change their type and can make a whole different set of arguments to justify their personality using a different set of functions. Not directed at anyone, as it applies to several people on the site - just something I think about now and then. It's interesting. :yes:

:yes:
 

compulsiverambler

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Is this more of a Si-tard moment (short-term memory failure?) or a Se-tard moment (not paying attention to what was happening in the first place?) Could it be either, or both?
I doubt Si has anything to do with short-term memory. It's about trying to gather concrete information, whether for short-term, medium-term or long-term use. Si-preferers with dyslexia, dementia, schizophrenia or other conditions will have a poor short-term memory, desperately poor in the latter cases, but the aspects of situations they'll focus on and remember more of will be different to those of other types with the same conditions. As raz said, it's about gathering concrete information and comparing it with other stored information or with incoming information, and you can approach things in that manner with or without a good short-term memory.

For example, most people occasionally enter a room and can't remember why they did so - a lapse of short-term memory - but may still notice instantly that something in the room isn't exactly as they left it the previous morning.

INtuitors with poor Si I'd think would be those people prone to stating facts and trends that they're sure they've heard of or encountered again and again without being able to bring sources, details or examples to mind. The abstract notion is isolated at the time for special attention and the rest neglected and forgotten. Sensors with poor Si would be more keen to have experiences, judge them (T/F) and move on than to store them in detail or compare them with what's come before. That would look like disinterest in learning about things, especially if they also had little patience for N.
 

compulsiverambler

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Some things I think poor Se might lead to:

Slow development of physical skills, not noticing quickly which details are relevant, not being alert to opportunities and risks as they emerge, feeling overwhelmed by lots of things going on, lack of awareness of the immediate surroundings, frequent accidents, poor boundary testing and cue reading, trouble learning by doing.
 

cascadeco

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This is what I’m having trouble understanding about Si. The descriptions I’ve read vary on this distinction. All the online definitions of Si that I’ve found tend to omit any inclusion of ‘affect’ in the data that gets ‘collected and compared to past experiences’- but I haven’t seen any explicitly exclude it either.

As for offline sources, both books I have about functions do clearly state that ‘affect’ is part of that Si data.

From Lenore Thompson’s ‘Owner’s Manual’:



And this is from Gary & Margaret Hartzler’s “Functions of Type”:


So- that's why I'm confused about whether or not 'affect' is part of that Si 'data'.

Well, you've kind of illustrated what I meant about contradictory information. It's still all theory. You'll find various definitions/explanations, and the 'experts' tend to have various viewpoints as well, and various opinions/theories on development.

Yeah, I did mention this in the op. It’s never a matter of one function working in isolation. I’m inclined to think the way an underdeveloped function plays in the collaborative process is going to vary according to an individual’s hierarchy of functions- and even then it’s probably going to vary even further according to individuals. But I also think that probing into it reveals some interesting correlations.

I think there are interesting generalities when it comes to type, and I can definitely see similarities between myself and other dominant Ni's. But beyond the first couple of functions -- the correlations tend to vanish (in my opinion).

I do agree with you though that each cognitive function would play out differently, in theory, between each of the 16 types - a slightly different nuance/manner of utilizing the function depending on type, and the function would come into play in different settings with each type. And agree w/ you that you have further individual variance within each type.

Actually though I find the correlations between pure dichotomies -- E/I, T/F, N/S, J/P - just as compelling, if not moreso, than bringing cognitive functions into the mix. Things are quite straightforward, and relatively consistent, with the dichotomies. Things get muddled quickly with the functions.

I see your point about taking it too seriously. But when it isn't taken too seriously, all the 'theory' can be a helpful means to better understanding ourselves and other people. IMO, anyway.

I guess I have come to a different conclusion over time...pinning cognitive functions onto my friends or myself tends to just muddle things further, and adds unnecessary complexity, and then I'm also doing them the additional disservice of presuming something about them (based on what functions they're 'supposed' to be operating under) that might not be the case at all, as real-life people don't tend to follow theoretical function orders. It's much easier - much more intuitive - for me to just get to know a person without paying attention to cognitive functions. In some ways I wish I didn't know a thing about them.

I think the functions themselves can be helpful in fostering communication about pretty intangible concepts, and they can provide a good framework for discussing personality. But the minute people start talking function order or how such and such type isn't 'supposed' to utilize such and such function, that's when it becomes ridiculous.

And...there's so much too when it comes to an individuals' own experiences, and other psychological factors and coping/defense mechanisms. Much more to personality than cognitive functions. [by the way, I'm not directing this at you specifically, this is just what is becoming my usual rant. ha.]

I do apologize though for moving away from your original questions....
I'm not the right person to answer your questions on Se/Si and what those functions truly embody, especially in the sense of being inferior functions in an individual, as I'm somewhat jaded when it comes to taking most of cognitive function theory at face value.

Compulsiverambler made some good posts on Si/Se
 

the state i am in

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i think we just need to refine our understandings of the cognitive functions and focus our thinking better.

inferior Si is why enp people act like they're high all the time.

i don't think the selectivity factor makes 100% sense, i think it overstates it as a subjective experience. yet, at the same time, if i compare it to Ni, i have to accept that the way details are selected and reality is framed internally determines very much how we filter the world and organize our ways of relating to the world in a judgment sense.

Si is still concrete, and using it well means that you are able to get information and store it better than other types, so it's not JUST selective. but, at the same time, it like all perception IS actively LOOKING for something, integrating useful information, etc. just like Ni would. it becomes skilled at doing a lot of work with minimal effort comparatively. we are good at keeping the information we want, for Ni it is abstracted relational holographic and for Si it is objects-as-objects, concrete details, and most of all PHYSICAL TANGIBLE SENSE impressions which can include tying your own kinesthetic stomach-dropping sad-feeling scared knot etc via Fi working in conjunction with Si. a personal relating of Si info to Fi. Ti seems to work w/ Si in terms of trusting STORIES when they are built on Si info that seems legit and checks out internally. entps for this reason are way more stretchy, generally, than intps, when it comes to discussions on "truth" bc their sensory info is usually pretty shitty and they would rather just reconstruct and improvise anyway/as a result.

my sensotardation is that i dont' use my eyes sometimes for weeks. i don't realize why things are going wrong and it's bc i'm writing words rather than seeing the world around me, i'm trying to imagine somethin that isn't here so i go into Ni stare and blink blink blink. ive realized this in the past when multi-tasking at work, cooking at home without visual information, losing in video games bc i am not watching the screen with more than 10% attention, reading a page without my eyes, etc. just not present, so it makes my outward physical mapping skills very poor, i have no idea where anything is and rarely come back enough to find it. recognizing this is a huge breakthru, "use your eyes" is helpful to say to myself.
 
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