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Opposing judgment functions- how do they work for you?

BlackCat

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Title says it all. Here is a link to the processes for a reference- Cognitive Processes

__FJs- How does Fi manifest in you (or it's lack thereof)? How does it clash with Fe? Explain, how do you disvalue it? What about Te?

__TPs- How does Te manifest in you (or it's lack thereof)? How does it clash with Ti? Explain, how do you disvalue it? What about Fi?

__FPs- How does Fe manifest in you (or it's lack thereof)? How does it clash with Fi? Explain, how do you disvalue it? What about Ti?

__TJs- How does Ti manifest in you (or it's lack thereof)? How does it clash with Te? Explain, how do you disvalue it? What about Fe?
 

Happyman

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Title says it all.
__FJs- How does Fi manifest in you (or it's lack thereof)? How does it clash with Fe? Explain, how do you disvalue it? What about Te?

I'm Fe dominant, yet have a quite strong Fi. They clash quite often.
I have a deep need to seek compromise and harmony with other people (Fe). On the other hand I have quite a strong set of personal beliefs and a deep need to stand promptly beside them. Every time I follow the first (seeking harmony) I later feel as if I have cheated on myself.
My high school class was made of very conservative people, so I had these problem many times. I think I go with Fi much more often now, than I did being, let's say 15.
Also strong Fe makes you question your personal beliefs if you're around people who have beliefs in strong opposition to yours, so it's a real pain in the a** some time, because I feel I need to spend some time alone, regroup and make sure I still believe what I believed. Same goes for personal goals, being very Fe, makes you listen to people that are close to you, so it takes some serious discipline to follow your chosen path (Fi). I'm a writer from a family of successful business people, so I know what I'm talking about. ;)

(cool thread! made me put to words something I was only intuitively feeling and through this realize it better - thanks! :) )
 

Totenkindly

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TPs- How does Te manifest in you (or it's lack thereof)? How does it clash with Ti? Explain, how do you disvalue it? What about Fi?

Te is one of my worst functions. (probably position 6-7).

To me, it feels like crushing all of the life out of my Ti and putting it in a little streamlined box so I can use it to do things. Put another way, it feels like taking this beautiful wild stallion that is freely galloping through nature and slapping a harness on it and putting blinders on it and beating it so that it no longer runs free on its own all so I can make it pull a stupid little plow and dig furrows with it and make money off crops.

(Note: I'm not saying that's WHAT it is, I'm saying that's how I personally feel and why I take a dislike to it. It feels like neutering and hamstringing my Ti, turning it inside out, and using it as a slave.)

However, I see that it is essential in order to get things accomplished in life. There have been times I HAD to shut everything down and just get the task accomplished in order to succeed in life and even survive.... so I did. Te is horribly effective at getting to the end of something.

Fi, meanwhile, is like an abyss under my feet, it's like throwing myself into the open air and space, expecting to fly. What proof do I have of that? Ti tells me the true state of everything, it all makes sense it's verifiable, I just 'see' it. Fi is amorphous, ambiguous, so subjective me that I can't tell if I am half-crazy or whether my instincts make any sense whatsoever. There's nothing to validate the feelings, and I'm always terrified they will let me spiral down to crash upon the canyon floor.
 

redacted

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The thing is, both Ti and Te are essentially sides of the same function. So the fact that I call myself a Ti user just means that I lean towards introversion with thinking. My thinking tends to be quite introverted, meaning my Te gets much less use than an average person.

In terms of tangible effects, I have pretty bad common sense, and have a really hard time pointing to external evidence for the conclusions I draw. I usually just remember what I thought in a given situation rather than the situation itself, because I tend to build on my own thoughts instead of updating my premises as the environment updates itself. This is not to say my thinking is never extroverted; it definitely is sometimes, mostly in tasks where I know basically nothing about what's happening. In those circumstances, relying on Ti gets me nowhere (although I do it anyway lots of the time, which is why I'm slower at new tasks than most). Sometimes I'll ask a bunch of questions and try a couple of things out so that I can get my Ti working, but when stuff is mundane, I usually just go with what's obvious.

My Fi probably gets even less use than Te. Since Ti dominates much of my introverted world, it pushes introverted value judgments aside. And since I have to make some value judgments, Feeling tends to live in the extroverted realm. I have a really hard time seeing why anyone would make value judgments without making sure all environmental variables are accounted for, because values depend so heavily on situations. I have a really hard time even accepting a value judgment before I've spent lots of time figuring out relations of things around me; what's the point of going in depth if I miss something? I'm sure Te users would say the same thing about introverted thinking :)

So overall, I push my Fi down both because my Ti takes up a lot of the same kind of processing space and because it doesn't seem useful to me to make value judgments that don't follow along with environmental factors.
 

NewEra

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__TJs- How does Ti manifest in you (or it's lack thereof)? How does it clash with Te? Explain, how do you disvalue it? What about Fe?[/SIZE]

My Ti is actually higher than my Te, so my function order is kinda screwy. Basically, I use Ti to see what fits and does not fit in a given situation, and make adjustments over time (it's sort of a unique mix of Si and Ti). It clashes with Te when I want organization or when I need a decision made quickly.

Fe is my lowest function, pretty much unused.
 

ygolo

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My Te is pretty strong. But as is typical it has a limited scope in where I use it.

Where I use it most is in organizing my learning objectives and achieving my life goals. I also use Te in design and enginerring activities. I like my schematics and code to be neat and organized (as well as "correct-by-design").

Other than for that, I am horribly disorganized, and suck at medium term planning. Projects always take much longer than I expect. (I am reasonably good at the really short term, like what I am going to do in the next hour to the rest of the day. I think I am much better at long term planning...like setting and achieving life goals, as mentioned above)

I haven't really had my Te clash with my Ti much. It generally plays the "Back-up" role more than the "Opposing" role.

I value all my functions. That is one of the side-effects of learning about them.

Of course, that does not mean I try to develop them all equally. My Ti is the CO. My Ne is my XO. The rest are the crew.

As for my Fi, I have a tumultuos relationship with it. Sometimes it gets me really depressed, but usually that depression is fruitful in making life changes and reexamining my priorities.
 

cascadeco

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Also strong Fe makes you question your personal beliefs if you're around people who have beliefs in strong opposition to yours, so it's a real pain in the a** some time, because I feel I need to spend some time alone, regroup and make sure I still believe what I believed.

Hmm...actually I relate a bit to this, but it's more that I don't have super strong beliefs on a lot of things, so it's easy then for me to question my own beliefs when I hear different perspectives or get new input (although there are a few things I won't budge on), and also don't put a huge amount of stock in the notion of belief systems anyway, due to their very subjectivity and the fact that every single person in existence has their own set of beliefs that they hold fast to, so I tend to do the 'Well, I believe such and such, and I have good reason for my beliefs. But person Y believes the opposite, and HE may have good reason for his beliefs. Neither of us is 'right' or 'wrong' per se, although I might THINK I'm right, even though HE thinks HE's right...so my thinking I have a good basis for my beliefs means squat....everything's subjective, blah, help!! :laugh:'

So I'd say my ability to see these multiple perspectives, as well as the very ephemeral nature of many beliefs, makes it difficult for me to understand Fi well, or to cling to my own beliefs very tightly. I'm always curious about new information/viewpoints, other societal frameworks, human nature itself and how/why we believe what we believe, and where that comes from....and frankly, the fact that many believe what they believe simply because it's what they grew up to believe, without actually contemplating the why's as to why they believe what they believe, and dissecting/analyzing all of it is, well, retarded to me. ha.

I know there are many other facets of Fi/Fe that I could comment on, but that would make for a long post. I'll stick with this piece. And I freely admit I may not really grasp Fi and what it means as a cognitive function, and that what I've said above isn't solely gonna tie to Fi - this is just my perception.

As for Te, I don't know that I have much of a comment on it. I don't think it's something I utilize terribly well, but I'm not opposed to it really. That 'mode' just isn't what I tend to prioritize in life, and out of life.
 

BlackCat

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Fi =/= beliefs. Not sure where that came from, or how someone's personality could be dominated purely by beliefs (Fi dom). I'd say Fi covers your own judgment of things, your own subjective view of the situation or person, based entirely on you, and FJs just don't really seem to like doing this or expressing this side of them. But eh, whatever. I'll add a link to some basic cognitive processes definitions into the OP.

Anyways, Fe for me is strange, I only really want to accommodate for those who I care for's needs and emotions. I also don't really care about someone's emotions unless I have some sort of connection to them (or I force myself to), and if I do have some sort of connection to someone then I always enjoy fixing their problems or giving suggestions for help, but if I don't care, none of that really happens. And I am quite an apathetic person. When I see people going way overboard with emotion or being way too sympathetic it irks me.

The concept of the "Fe attack" is absolutely foreign to me, it never even occurs to me to guilt trip someone or manipulate their emotions to get what I want.

Plus, if I see that someone is nice to everyone, how can I know that they actually like me, and they aren't just being nice?

Fe is the function that I score the lowest on.

I think that all of this was instilled by my ENFJ mom.

As for Ti, it's sort of strange. If I ever have to really use logic it usually comes from Si and Te, Ti is virtually unused for me. I don't like to collect information just for the heck of it, it's sort of difficult for me to notice logical inconsistencies right off the bat, and even then I don't know anything specific, but I get this feeling that something is wrong with what the person just said. Then I analyze it and eventually figure it out.
 

Liminality

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Fi =/= beliefs. Not sure where that came from, or how someone's personality could be dominated purely by beliefs (Fi dom). I'd say Fi covers your own judgment of things, your own subjective view of the situation or person, based entirely on you, and FJs just don't really seem to like doing this or expressing this side of them. But eh, whatever. I'll add a link to some basic cognitive processes definitions into the OP.

Anyways, Fe for me is strange, I only really want to accommodate for those who I care for's needs and emotions. I also don't really care about someone's emotions unless I have some sort of connection to them (or I force myself to), and if I do have some sort of connection to someone then I always enjoy fixing their problems or giving suggestions for help, but if I don't care, none of that really happens. And I am quite an apathetic person. When I see people going way overboard with emotion or being way too sympathetic it irks me.

I guess...Fe takes from the 'e' world, the external world of emotions, in the more extream cases feels the feelings of others stronger than their own, like there's a very weak sense of self, emotionally, and/or it picks up on others emotions and tensions strongly. Being hypersensitive to the environement on the outside.
In that respect a strong Fe would be more sensitive to aggression from others than strong Fi.

external feeling
internal feeling

Think of it like...typical enneagram type 2(w3), to a leser extent 9.

Hmm, "Fi =/= beliefs. Not sure where that came from, or how someone's personality could be dominated purely by beliefs (Fi dom)." I think by 'belifes', "internal set of values" is ment.

"I only really want to accommodate for those who I care for's needs and emotions. I also don't really care about someone's emotions unless I have some sort of connection to them" Imagine feeling a sense of emotional connection - willing and unwilling - to everyone.
 

BlackCat

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Hmm, "Fi =/= beliefs. Not sure where that came from, or how someone's personality could be dominated purely by beliefs (Fi dom)." I think by 'belifes', "internal set of values" is ment.

Again, that isn't all that Fi is. It's just a result of one of the processes that Fi does... I don't really have a strong set of internal values. I do have values (probably not as many as some others do), but these aren't really what Fi is.
 

Eric B

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Fi =/= beliefs. Not sure where that came from, or how someone's personality could be dominated purely by beliefs (Fi dom).
May well be coming from places like infporinfj.com, and the whole Berens circle in general, and their interpretations of Beebe. Like they will say "knowing what you want for yourself" (cognitive process test question), or describe these "personal values" in such terms as "I want", "I don't want", "I like" "I don't like". (Berens, Jung's Cognitive Proceses).

I grappled with that for over a year, and it is highly confusing. Contrasts with the notion of TP's being so "detached", you would think they had no wants, likes or beliefs at all; (except for shadowy "archetypes").
That's where Lenore Thomson came in very handy, beause she pointed out that the ego has an emotional investment in its dominant function; whatever it is, and that Feeling can remain undifferentiated for a T, and thus does not have to be "used".

Basically, "beliefs" when associated with Fi should be understood as primarily ethical beliefs, and inasmuch as it goes beyond ethics; it is about making decisions based on "what's nice" or not (based on an internal standard).
 

Polaris

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BlackCat said:
FPs- How does Fe manifest in you (or it's lack thereof)? How does it clash with Fi? Explain, how do you disvalue it? What about Ti?
I wouldn't say I devalue Fe. Fe allows me to connect with people through shared values and formalities, and the fact that these things exist on a social level brings them an element of security. All you have to do is stick to the rules of conduct, and you can get by without offending anyone and causing yourself stress. Of course, it's not always easy to know what kind of behavior will work in a given context, but so long as you obey some set of rules, you at least know that you acted properly by a standard, if not their standard. Which brings me to the other positive side of Fe: that it gives me a much-needed dose of superiority. Using Fe, I can put myself on a level of conduct that goes above that of many people I meet. Sometimes this can lead to condescending behavior, but usually it only makes me generous.

The negative side of Fe, and this is where I bring in Fi, is that when I see a person who wants nothing except to win approval and who never does anything against society's rulebook, I see someone whom I can only think of as fake. Such a person has no originality; he lives off of other people like a parasite. And this is something I dread in myself. I don't want to lose touch with the things that make me unique; if I did, my life would have no point; I would be worthless.

So I often experience a tension between Fe and Fi. I step away from a social experience, and I criticize myself for playing too much or too little by the rules. Or someone says something offensive, and just as I'm about to speak up, I bite my tongue because I know everyone agrees. Or I want to do something original like change my hairstyle, and I can't muster the courage because I know everyone will wonder at me. In short, I don't want to care what other people think and yet I care very much.

Regarding Ti, it's a constant companion but not one I use on the same level as ITPs.
 

Wonkavision

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Great thread topic, Black Cat! :)


Extraverted Feeling: Connecting; considering others and the group—organizing to meet their needs and honor their values and feelings; maintaining societal, organizational, or group values; adjusting to and accommodating others; deciding if something is appropriate or acceptable to others. Considering what would be appropriate for the situation: “One should or shouldn’t wear…” or “People will think…”

I don't know how much I use this, but I doubt I use it much.

I don't give a rat's ass about societal, organizational, or group values, for the most part.

I connect with, consider the needs of, and accomodate others, but I suspect that's a reflection of Ne+Fi.

Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: “Wearing this might communicate…”

Introverted Feeling: Valuing; considering importance and worth; reviewing for incongruity; evaluating something based on the truths on which it is based; clarifying values to achieve accord; deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for. Evaluating whether you like an outfit or not: “This outfit suits me and feels right.”

I think these two things together enable me to get along socially while maintaining personal authenticity.

If I used Fe more effectively, I might have less conflict with others, but it just wouldn't be me, so I don't want to use it anyway.

I admire Fe in those who use it effectively, but if I used it, I'd feel like a phony in drag.



Introverted Thinking: Analyzing; categorizing; evaluating according to principles and whether something fits the framework or model; figuring out the principles on which something works; checking for inconsistencies; clarifying definitions to get more precision. Analyzing your options using principles like comfort or “Red is a power color.”

I probably don't use Ti much, either.

I'm sure I would NEVER apply it to interpersonal situations.

It seems that Fi and Ti serve a very similar purpose, but I definitely use Fi most of the time.
 

BlackCat

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Great thread topic, Black Cat! :)

I connect with, consider the needs of, and accomodate others, but I suspect that's a reflection of Ne+Fi.

Thanks. :)

And this is what I was getting at, when I actually do care about and accommodate another person, it's because they're on my mental "list" you could say of people I respect.
 
G

Ginkgo

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Most of the time my Fi blots out Fe.

However, when I am in a foreign situation like visiting another country, I aspire to treat people with respect according to their values. Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between the two functions because I believe that Fe can be somewhat ingrained into Fi.

Other than that, my Fe is extremely weak. For instance, I am often reclusive and sometimes cold. Furthermore, I find many social situations to be awkward or needless. Most people have an incredibly hard time reading me, and will either think of me as an angel or a demon.
 

Wonkavision

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Damn you, Black Cat, for quoting me before I caught my mistakes!!! :D

I've got to edit myself more before making a post. ;)
 

BlackCat

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Damn you, Black Cat, for quoting me before I caught my mistakes!!! :D

Lol I don't know what you're talking about. (look at the quote again) You just said that your Ti sucks anyway. :devil:
 

lamp

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However, when I am in a foreign situation like visiting another country, I aspire to treat people with respect according to their values. Sometimes it is hard to distinguish between the two functions because I believe that Fe can be somewhat ingrained into Fi.
If Fi dictates that I respect someone, or a group or situation, then I generally must meet their expectations for the interaction or event.

interesting to think about two Fi-users both obeying a 'Fe rule' in order to respect each other.
 
G

Glycerine

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After putting other people first for an extended time, I will go into periods of extreme selfishness, I have noticed this with my ESFJ dad also. I guess that's the point where Fe users can lose themselves, can overcompensate and then they go into periods of selfishness. That's how I have seen Fi manifest in myself and my dad. I have seen the opposite with some INFPs. When they lose themselves, they can go overboard in helping people.
 

Matthew_Z

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I always imagined Te was the function for those who could only be happy if everything was as efficient as possible. What do I think of those people? Suckers. Is there no higher purpose than to have everything organized? If you rule the world, then what? </hardly-MBTI-related-rant> (also, the answer "conquer the next world" is not acceptable)

For me, Te generally only comes out under stress, that is, when something NEEDS to be done. It seems to naturally block off avenues I would much prefer left open.

To be frank, my knowledge of the F functions is relatively weak. However, based on the profiles of both that I've read, I think it's safe to say that my Fi is stronger than my Fe. In my experience, Fi is the function of self discovery. It can be a little helpful in orienting the direction of life. Why do I go to school? Why do I prefer being alone? Why aren't I a hermit living on some farm on the fringes of civilization? Why do I make friends? Questions such as those are ones I generally would use an Fi answer for.
 
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