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IxTPs development : Been reading...

Xander

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This may be obvious to some but it's just come up whilst I was reading through Lenore's book 'Personality Type: An owner's manual'.

Using Ti primarily there are two types INTP and ISTP. The book refers to Ti as being personal and actually NOT objective and impersonal as many seem to infer.

Could it be said to be true that for these types to develop they have to realise that their logic and structure is personal to them and not actually representative of objective truth? Ergo an INTP who wishes to be a more developed and happy person needs to accept that they aren't modelling reality truthfully but rather subjectively and allow room for other's to differ?

I know this is linked in with the development of F style attributes but it occurred to me that young INTPs seem obsessed with objectivity, I know I was, and that perhaps by letting go of this misconception they will grow and find things more to their liking (young INTPs having a seeming preference for disliking the world as it is).

Does this make sense?
 

JocktheMotie

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It does. I tend to agree with Technical's [dude over at INTPc] assertion that judging functions are subjective, perceiving functions are objective. The reasoning is that once you begin applying judgments to data, it is impossible to remove either the internal [Ji] or external [Je] subjective principles from that data.

For example, we can both look at numbers on a spreadsheet and agree that they are 12345, but we don't have to agree on what they mean, because they have been analyzed differently.

However, he uses his own function system and order. But his reasoning, I think, has merits.
 

Xander

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It does. I tend to agree with Technical's [dude over at INTPc] assertion that judging functions are subjective, perceiving functions are objective. The reasoning is that once you begin applying judgments to data, it is impossible to remove either the internal [Ji] or external [Je] subjective principles from that data.

For example, we can both look at numbers on a spreadsheet and agree that they are 12345, but we don't have to agree on what they mean, because they have been analyzed differently.

However, he uses his own function system and order. But his reasoning, I think, has merits.
I heard he know's jack :newwink:

That manner of looking at function order and they're uses is nice. I did argue with him before that it was isolationist though as he tends to analyse in isolation and ignore that no function is ever in isolation but with his system it really did make me look at why I thought he was wrong which in itself was useful. As I once postulated before, the question was much more useful than the answer could ever be.
 

rhinosaur

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I think Technical's system is actually a good example of the kind of subjectivity Xander is talking about. He's reasoned through it, and made improvements to the existing system, and so he thinks it's objective. But until he gets some hard data to support his theories, it can never be. As it is right now, it's just a hypothesis he has, which he is convinced is objectively better than the existing system. At least that's the way I see it. He might come into this thread and say I'm wrong.
 

Xander

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I think Technical's system is actually a good example of the kind of subjectivity Xander is talking about. He's reasoned through it, and made improvements to the existing system, and so he thinks it's objective. But until he gets some hard data to support his theories, it can never be. As it is right now, it's just a hypothesis he has, which he is convinced is objectively better than the existing system. At least that's the way I see it. He might come into this thread and say I'm wrong.
More than that though, his system makes sense of the MBTI to him. More power to him I say. As long as he remains aware that his system is precisely that, his system, no problems.

(I was going to say this kind of stuff when I posted last but as ever I skipped something somewhere... damned non linear brain!!!)
 

JocktheMotie

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I heard he know's jack :newwink:

That manner of looking at function order and they're uses is nice. I did argue with him before that it was isolationist though as he tends to analyse in isolation and ignore that no function is ever in isolation but with his system it really did make me look at why I thought he was wrong which in itself was useful. As I once postulated before, the question was much more useful than the answer could ever be.

Yes they seem to be very good friends :cheese:

I suppose it's a tad isolationist...but I think removing the introverted and extraverted aspects of each function cleans up some confusion, removes a lot of arbitrary nonsense, etc. I think his function system is good. Makes perfect sense on its own terms. People have difficulty with it when they try to apply MBTI assumptions to it and get confused.

I think Technical's system is actually a good example of the kind of subjectivity Xander is talking about. He's reasoned through it, and made improvements to the existing system, and so he thinks it's objective. But until he gets some hard data to support his theories, it can never be. As it is right now, it's just a hypothesis he has, which he is convinced is objectively better than the existing system. At least that's the way I see it. He might come into this thread and say I'm wrong.

I understand. It's a logically coherent system with not much tethering it to actual "data" but really, what typological system does have data? It's nearly impossible to quantify mental processes, and even if you hook someone up to a brain monitor and measure cognitive processes, wether you call something Fi, Fe, or just F is a subjective interpretation of what you're seeing.
 

Xander

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I suppose it's a tad isolationist...but I think removing the introverted and extraverted aspects of each function cleans up some confusion, removes a lot of arbitrary nonsense, etc. I think his function system is good. Makes perfect sense on its own terms. People have difficulty with it when they try to apply MBTI assumptions to it and get confused.
Oh don't get me started on people confusing attitudes with functions... that just gets irritating... fast!

Having said that, this new book makes more sense than I've found previously for the attitude being important and actually outlining the differences between Te and Ti. According to the like five pages I've read it seems that Te and Ti are functionally identical but where they differ is where their priorities lie. Te is more about being consistent with external data and Ti internal data. That much makes sense.

I wonder if J..Technical has read it?
I understand. It's a logically coherent system with not much tethering it to actual "data" but really, what typological system does have data? It's nearly impossible to quantify mental processes, and even if you hook someone up to a brain monitor and measure cognitive processes, wether you call something Fi, Fe, or just F is a subjective interpretation of what you're seeing.
All interpretation, definition and conclusions are subjective. Why is an orange an orange? The point is not whether it should be called an orange but whether the object remains consistent thereby making the description consistent.

If everyone in your family has a big nose then do you have a big nose? What about if you never speak to anyone except those in your family and they are similarly secluded (avoiding the issue of how this would explain how you all have big noses of course :whistling: )?
 

VagrantFarce

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Would this extend to dom-Fi as well, where an IFP would recognise that the values they hold are not absolute or that they don't neccessarilly govern other people's actions?

I do agree that Ti is not objective, it just creates a social detachment that might feel objective (Te is the most objective function, if indeed it's appropiate to label any of the functions "objective"). The whole point of Ti is that the user is creating a first-hand understanding of the world based on interaction, like creating a never-ending jigsaw from scratch.
 

Eric B

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There are different levels of "objectivity". Thinking tends to be more objective than Feeling. However; an extraverted attitude is by definition, more objective than an introverted one. Hence, Ti, while being objective because it deals with logic, does still have a very subjective orientation.
I had also determined perception was more objective than judgment, and from there was able to put together an alternative type lettering system that reduced the four dichotomies down to one, with a scale of the types from must objective to least. INTP Central - View Single Post - Functions in the Brain
 

INTJMom

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...
Te is more about being consistent with external data and Ti internal data.
...
I can agree with this. I know that as an INTJ, I am always concerned about consistency when I am DOING something, and have noticed that INTPs have a similar obsession when THINKING something.

...
I do agree that Ti is not objective, it just creates a social detachment that might feel objective
Hmm. Interesting. It creates social detachment. How? And does Fi do that, too? Or if it does create detachment... what kind? And do you mean only in the Dominant position, or Auxiliary as well?

(Te is the most objective function, if indeed it's appropriate to label any of the functions "objective").
LOL! I think there was a huge thread where JackFlak was trying to convince everyone the INTPs were the most objective type, or something like that.
(I was going to post a link, but after trying several things, I couldn't find it.
Xander posted in it; maybe he remembers.)

The whole point of Ti is that the user is creating a first-hand understanding of the world based on interaction, like creating a never-ending jigsaw from scratch.
Wow. I feel sorry for you guys. That sounds like it hurts! :newwink:
 

VagrantFarce

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Hmm. Interesting. It creates social detachment. How? And does Fi do that, too? Or if it does create detachment... what kind? And do you mean only in the Dominant position, or Auxiliary as well?

I say that because Ti stands in oppositon to Fe. Using that same thinking, Fi probably creates a detachment from responsibility and doing what is neccessary (Fi opposed to Te, like these retards who run around saying the military is evil and should be abolished without realising that it's neccessary for civilisation to survive).

Wow. I feel sorry for you guys. That sounds like it hurts! :newwink:

Now combine that with Ne. Now imagine what that person is like in day-to-day interaction. It's like trying to catch flies with just your bare hands. :glasses:
 

Nighthawk

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I know this is linked in with the development of F style attributes but it occurred to me that young INTPs seem obsessed with objectivity, I know I was, and that perhaps by letting go of this misconception they will grow and find things more to their liking (young INTPs having a seeming preference for disliking the world as it is).

I know I was more obsessed with objectivity in younger years. I saw the world as black and white ... and most of the other people were just plain wrong in my mind. Over the years I've come to realize that the neatly structured data inside my mind is not the final solution for everything. It is something of my construction and not necessarily applicable to the general population. I learned to see in shades of gray, even some color ... so to speak. For instance, I've come to view feeling as a parallel, but equally viable, construct that works hand-in-hand with thinking.
 

Xander

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Would this extend to dom-Fi as well, where an IFP would recognise that the values they hold are not absolute or that they don't neccessarilly govern other people's actions?
Fi would probably be less based upon others values and more on internal values so I guess if you were to think in terms of values being an F kind of objective, which is true from a certain point of view, then Fi would be less "objective" and more personal/ subjective.
I do agree that Ti is not objective, it just creates a social detachment that might feel objective (Te is the most objective function, if indeed it's appropiate to label any of the functions "objective"). The whole point of Ti is that the user is creating a first-hand understanding of the world based on interaction, like creating a never-ending jigsaw from scratch.
Oddly I think that the social detachment is what causes the lack of objectivity after all it's removing the object.

Oh and nice picture with the jigsaw puzzle. I can definitely see that one.
There are different levels of "objectivity". Thinking tends to be more objective than Feeling. However; an extraverted attitude is by definition, more objective than an introverted one. Hence, Ti, while being objective because it deals with logic, does still have a very subjective orientation.
I had also determined perception was more objective than judgment, and from there was able to put together an alternative type lettering system that reduced the four dichotomies down to one, with a scale of the types from must objective to least. INTP Central - View Single Post - Functions in the Brain
Not sure I agree that J is less objective. It's placing rules, boundaries and limitations on things which is less objective but without such you cannot establish any object upon which to base anything.
I can agree with this. I know that as an INTJ, I am always concerned about consistency when I am DOING something, and have noticed that INTPs have a similar obsession when THINKING something.
Knowledge is worthwhile for it's own sake = TP (I think)
Wow. I feel sorry for you guys. That sounds like it hurts! :newwink:
Like you wouldn't believe.
Now combine that with Ne. Now imagine what that person is like in day-to-day interaction. It's like trying to catch flies with just your bare hands. :glasses:
Hands? :eek: I've been using chopsticks for years!!!
I know I was more obsessed with objectivity in younger years. I saw the world as black and white ... and most of the other people were just plain wrong in my mind. Over the years I've come to realize that the neatly structured data inside my mind is not the final solution for everything. It is something of my construction and not necessarily applicable to the general population. I learned to see in shades of gray, even some color ... so to speak. For instance, I've come to view feeling as a parallel, but equally viable, construct that works hand-in-hand with thinking.
Hey Nighthawk!! Long time no see.

Feeling in parallel is a major pain though, IMO. Too many possibilities.

I'm still working from the point of view of "if you would kindly put those warm and fuzzies under control I think I can help". Not sure it's working but it's a start.

Of course what would be most helpful is if we could put into strict objective terms the benefits and methods of gaining the insight which changes your perceptions to include these extra variables which previously were discarded as irrelevant.
 

Fluffywolf

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I love being Ti-Ne. But you are absolutely right in that Ti is subjective rather than objective. That is because Subjectivity has a place in the puzzle as much as objectivity.

Right and wrong. Just and unjust. Good and evil. All subjective issues. All important in philosophy and lifestyle.

INTJMom, jigsaw puzzles are awesome. Nothing painful about it. Our worst nightmare is finishing our Ti jigsaw puzzle. No, we want to keep busy with it, forever and ever. :D
 

Xander

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I love being Ti-Ne. But you are absolutely right in that Ti is subjective rather than objective. That is because Subjectivity has a place in the puzzle as much as objectivity.

Right and wrong. Just and unjust. Good and evil. All subjective issues. All important in philosophy and lifestyle.
It becomes a problem however when it is believed to be objective because it is detached from the external information where as it is actually becoming more subjective. I'm thinking that remembering this might prompt some to check their thinking with external validation instead of continuing with an unproven concept upon which to build their model.
INTJMom, jigsaw puzzles are awesome. Nothing painful about it. Our worst nightmare is finishing our Ti jigsaw puzzle. No, we want to keep busy with it, forever and ever. :D
On my part it's not that I'm worried about finishing the puzzle, it's the paranoia that I'm sure that nothing is perfect which means this jigsaw isn't perfect either and I'd really like it to be.
(note, this is exactly how I keep stuffing my computer up!!)
 

Eric B

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Not sure I agree that J is less objective. It's placing rules, boundaries and limitations on things which is less objective but without such you cannot establish any object upon which to base anything.
I didn't mean the J/P dichotomy; but rather the judgment and perception functions overall. "J" indicates extraverted judgment, and remember, extraversion is objective, so yes, you are right about that.
 

Nighthawk

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Hey Nighthawk!! Long time no see.

Feeling in parallel is a major pain though, IMO. Too many possibilities.

I'm still working from the point of view of "if you would kindly put those warm and fuzzies under control I think I can help". Not sure it's working but it's a start.

Of course what would be most helpful is if we could put into strict objective terms the benefits and methods of gaining the insight which changes your perceptions to include these extra variables which previously were discarded as irrelevant.

Long time, indeed :)

Yes, feeling in parallel is a pain for me too. I'm still not very good at it, and I push it away sometimes. However, admitting that feeling is a valid system has helped me understand and come to terms with the world much better. After all, roughly half of the world's population has the feeling preference. Yes, it still clashes with my thinking preference from time to time, but then I'm able to take a step back and try to envision both sides of the coin ... so to speak. It has helped tremedously in my relationship with my ISFJ SO. Raw blasts of Fe still make me retreat however.
 
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