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Are you wary of Fe?

Thalassa

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Amargith, your boss sounds like a control freak. There's nothing really to understand there. Control freaks need to feel in control. They don't trust others to do things "right." I've experienced this as a negative trait in some Fe-doms, especially ones under stress, in a bad mood, or just generally unhealthy. Then again, not all control freakiness comes from Fe, it can easily come from Te, or even Fi ...I just think it might be Fe in this particular case.

Punishment for failure to conform can take many forms, etc. seems...a bit harsh and judgemental. It really depends on how far it goes. I mean, if someone is constantly contemplating their navel and won't keep a job, then by all means, kick them in the butt.

But sometimes people need professional help. There is social anxiety, depression, PTSD, and grief to consider in some cases.

Other times there's not even anything wrong - they just are a person who needs more time alone. Period. Trying to change them is crazily counterproductive.
 

Udog

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Example for Amar

Fi and Fe process values in a completely different order:

Fi:
1. Internalizes and processes
2. Extroverts to test - highest vulnerability

Fe
1. Extroverts and processes
2. Internalizes to test - highest vulnerability

The basic source of misunderstanding is that when Fi/Fe align (i.e. both extroverting), they are at completely different stages of processing. The strength of one function is the weakness of another, so there's always one party that feels highly vulnerable and off center.

Examples:

My girlfriend only thinks she understands how I feel, but she doesn't. This pain is crippling and she should know that I can't be expected to do <blank>, while I feel this way. What happened was so wrong, I can't believe she doesn't agree. There's no point in explaining because she'll never understand.

My boyfriend needs to understand how I (or we) feel, but he doesn't so I'll show him. <Cue verbal lash out> "You need to stop being so selfish and think how what you're doing affects me and my family. We needed you to do <blank> and you didn't! That is so wrong. I cannot believe you didn't see that. This conversation is pointless because you don't understand."

Instead of cultivating my own examples, I'll just use yours. ;) I can see this playing out in so many different ways, so this is just one example.

Fi user: Step 1 Introversion: I'm stressed, and need to go into my head to handle the pain and work it out.

Fe user: Step 1 Extroversion: Something isn't right with him, but what? We need to talk about this and figure it out. "Hey Fi user, what's going on?"

Fi user: Step 1: "I don't want to talk about it." I haven't even figured out what is going on yet - how can I possibly be expected to talk about it?

Fe user: Step 1: I need to know what you are thinking/feeling. Lashes out, in accordance to Iwakar's example.

Fi user: Having been forcibly extracted from his head, engages Step 2 Extroversion and Vulnerability. To protect himself, he enlists opposing Te. "I'm in more pain than you can possibly know! Without knowing what I'm going through [aka having all the data], how can you possibly relate and tell me what to do?! If you cared, you'd just leave me alone! This is all your fault anyway, because if you didn't say/do <action>, then I wouldn't feel <emotion>!" Then, after the outbreak, retreats back to Step 1 and surrounds himself with an impenetrable brick wall.

Fe user: No longer able to engage in Step 1 extroversion, is either forced to find others to talk with or to engage Step 2 Introversion and become vulnerable. Their thoughts grow cloudy and dark, building upon themselves.

Fi user: Meanwhile, Fi user is happy to be left alone. He sorts through his problems, and having done his healing process, is now on comfortable ground. He willingly and perhaps even happily engages in Step 2 extroversion.

Fe user: Having been cut off from their area of strength, is now in a dark place and isn't ready to re-engage in Step 1 extroversion, or if they are, re-engages it with all these new problems that must now be addressed.

Hmm... do you think the Fi user is ready to deal with a new influx of emotion?

... and so on and so on...
 

Amargith

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Looks pretty impressive. Good work, Udog!

One question: I dunno about you, but when I get stuck in my head and cannot actually figure it out myself, I turn to my SO to ramble and vent, and sort out my thoughts that way. How does that fit in?
 

Udog

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Looks pretty impressive. Good work, Udog!

One question: I dunno about you, but when I get stuck in my head and cannot actually figure it out myself, I turn to my SO to ramble and vent, and sort out my thoughts that way. How does that fit in?

My example was admittedly INFP biased, as Fi plays a different role with ENFPs. The ENFP is an extrovert first, and under stress will use Ne/Te to deal with the problem, while letting the bruised Fi hide safely underneath. Since the core of the issue, the bruised Fi, isn't being dealt with, Ne/Te is being tainted by their hurt feelings, and voila - a passive aggressive ENFP.

That's primarly a guess, though. Let me ask you this:

When something really knocks you flat on your feet and disorients you, do you go to the source ready to expose the feelings that were just hurt, or do you go to the source to understand and perhaps throw down a little Te smack down?
 

sculpting

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when I expose my feelings-which is rare-if they are hurt I will lash out with Te smack down, then retreat and analyze the situation to understand what went wrong.
 

nightning

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Problem is that she already gives me 'lists' to keep tabs on me and she's not even supposed to be my boss, just my collegue who just happens to have seniority. I respect her claim and her vast knowledge as I'm nowhere near her level, but it does aggrevate me on occasion, I have to admit. I cannot help but feel that she considers me like a child she has to raise. But maybe that's just coz she means well? Or is she in fact annoyed at the fact that I am not as efficient in her eyes?

Yikes! This isn't even a case of micromanagement... it's beyond that. I feel for you. :hug:

I'm not sure whether she just means well or whether she finds your work process unsatisfactory. But in the case of a ESFJ boss I had, she does that for everyone... check on your progress, hang around and do work with you for a bit etc. Now does your colleague do that for everybody or just for you? Even if it's just for you, she can simply see you as a special tutee... so it's difficult to say exactly... but chances are I don't think she's annoyed at you.
 

Mondo

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Without a good use of Fe.. I doubt I would be able to detect social norms, ;)
If something's bothering me.. I feel the need to talk about it right away.
If someone says that he or she needs to mull things over, I usually end up feeling more paranoid- since I too often feel that there is a way-too obvious answer to the conflict or that compromise can only be achieved by a fair discussion..
 

Amargith

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My example was admittedly INFP biased, as Fi plays a different role with ENFPs. The ENFP is an extrovert first, and under stress will use Ne/Te to deal with the problem, while letting the bruised Fi hide safely underneath. Since the core of the issue, the bruised Fi, isn't being dealt with, Ne/Te is being tainted by their hurt feelings, and voila - a passive aggressive ENFP.

That's primarly a guess, though. Let me ask you this:

When something really knocks you flat on your feet and disorients you, do you go to the source ready to expose the feelings that were just hurt, or do you go to the source to understand and perhaps throw down a little Te smack down?


If they let me go, I'll retreat and lick my wounds, and mull it over. But as soon as the worst is over and I cannot figure out what happened, I will go to my SO who acts like a sounding board on this and rant at him about what happened and how I feel about it..which allows me to sort through things even more. Things I cannot figure out myself, he himself will then address using his Ni+Te. I don't go on a Te rampage without his say-so, unless I can figure Fi out myself and feel justified to do so...and even I sometimes doublecheck to make sure I didn't misunderstand somehow.
 

onemoretime

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Fe is the only thing that can counter Fe. For example, I had the lovely pleasure of jumping into my friend's car while she and her boyfriend were in the middle of a huge fight. Mind you, this could get disastrous very quickly. Her boyfriend was very Ti dominant, and as such couldn't see why she was so upset (something I would agree on at an earlier age). Of course, this just set her off worse, Fe dominant as she was. It was only when I reminded her of how selfish she was acting that she was able to calm down enough to where an actual discussion could start.

It was nice, too, because understanding the obligatory nature of Fe made it clear what was going on - she was upset because she was putting so much effort into the relationship, and she didn't feel like he was putting enough, nor was he recognizing how much effort she was putting into it. Of course, it was hard to put into words, since she didn't want to seem ungrateful for what he had done up to this point. Once the idea was out, his Ti made it a lot easier to dissect the issue after the initial reservations.

I get into trouble because I know the mutual obligations and expect people to follow them - it's just that I can't remember what to do half the time. This is something I'm working on.
 

Udog

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If they let me go, I'll retreat and lick my wounds, and mull it over. But as soon as the worst is over and I cannot figure out what happened, I will go to my SO who acts like a sounding board on this and rant at him about what happened and how I feel about it..which allows me to sort through things even more. Things I cannot figure out myself, he himself will then address using his Ni+Te. I don't go on a Te rampage without his say-so, unless I can figure Fi out myself and feel justified to do so...and even I sometimes doublecheck to make sure I didn't misunderstand somehow.

So the idea that you need to retreat and figure out what YOU feel about this still remains, it's just that since you are Ne dom you do it in a different way. So the example would be similar, only different. ;)

Also, it sounds like you found someone that compliments you wonderfully. :)

It was nice, too, because understanding the obligatory nature of Fe made it clear what was going on - she was upset because she was putting so much effort into the relationship, and she didn't feel like he was putting enough, nor was he recognizing how much effort she was putting into it. Of course, it was hard to put into words, since she didn't want to seem ungrateful for what he had done up to this point. Once the idea was out, his Ti made it a lot easier to dissect the issue after the initial reservations.

Here's the equivilant Fi/Fi exchange.

I like kids. I really do. But I lack experience around them (single child, none of my close friends have any), so I can be awkward around them sometimes. To play that off, I overcompensate and go humorously overboard when I talk about how evil and devilish the little masterminding spawns are.

My INFJ friend, who has known me for years, would take my actions near face value. She'd laugh at my jokes, and knew I wasn't quite serious, but was unsure of what I really felt. Since I never told her, she just assumed I genuinely didn't like kids. My INTJ friend, on the other hand, likely recognizing the behavior of over-exaggerating something to hide the actual value, quickly recognized this and was able to call me out on it.
 

sculpting

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Okay I give up on my rosetta threads as I lack all functions today it appears and I dont feel they were coherent. I have been up since 2 so blah, yuck, blah.

Two Fe notes:
1) My entp and i today talked of what happens to an Fe-dom raised in a really odd enviornment growing up. She said they end up odd, but since they feel the need to be in agreement with thier surroundings, they sort of twist thier local sociatal structure to fit thier oddness. Has enyone seen examples of this?

2) I found out our PMO manager is an ISFJ. I couldnt understand why things seemed so odd and off kilter. Why his actions seemed passive agressive, yet on the surface didn't. Why he kept road blocking my entps... ISFJ guys have very good poker faces. We are all doomed... Me and my entp have much work to do.

I'll be back in a week or so hopefully with more brain cells then as I am plain dumb today.
 

PeaceBaby

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Well yeah, too many generalisations, it's true. Actually what I was trying for was some kind of simple recipe for Protean in dealing with her boss. Perhaps overreached my theoretical expertise.

But hey, here's a question: what's the right thing to say about the role of feeling in the life of an INFP manager?

(And I ask because it totally feels like it's the wrong question to ask, and I'd like an INFP to say so, but I don't know why.)

I love questions!

The role of feelings can be tough. I use them to help guide decision making, kind of the gut-feeling whether something is going well or going horribly wrong somewhere. I have also learned to detach some of my personal feelings from the business-oriented environment - meaning, I don't take it personal if someone doesn't agree with me, I try to remain objective at different approaches to communication even if they are not my preference.

I use a lot of praise in leadership, rather than censure or criticism. I can err on the side of being too accommodating and soft, so I have learned to place milestones that allow people to see for themselves if they are missing targets, and thus, I can discipline according to something objective rather than subjective. Because people generally see me as positive, I cannot simply switch over to be the tough gal and be taken at face value, honestly.

Hope that helps!

---

I suppose I don't see these functions as being as discrete as everyone wants to pin them down to.

If I were to hard-boil it to a sentence for each it would be:

Fi - I feel my feelings so I need to understand them
Fe - My feelings are real so I need to express them

Defensive Fi postures arise from a lack of sufficient processing time against the sounding board of the other functions. When forced to explain / justify the initial feelings and express verbally or in words, it can be challenging to pin. Fi gets lost in itself for a while.

Defensive Fe postures arise from a lack of sufficient or appropriate response to the outer expression of these feelings. I tell you I am angry, why don't you respond, why don't you care? The other functions are quick to justify the initial response and filter reactions.
 

onemoretime

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Here's the equivilant Fi/Fi exchange.

I like kids. I really do. But I lack experience around them (single child, none of my close friends have any), so I can be awkward around them sometimes. To play that off, I overcompensate and go humorously overboard when I talk about how evil and devilish the little masterminding spawns are.

My INFJ friend, who has known me for years, would take my actions near face value. She'd laugh at my jokes, and knew I wasn't quite serious, but was unsure of what I really felt. Since I never told her, she just assumed I genuinely didn't like kids. My INTJ friend, on the other hand, likely recognizing the behavior of over-exaggerating something to hide the actual value, quickly recognized this and was able to call me out on it.

Yeah, that's interesting. I would likely interpret that as "well, I don't find kids that interesting, either, but I don't begrudge them for that. Guess that person really doesn't like kids. Still, nice to know someone who isn't obsessed with them all the time", never knowing that you actually were fond of kids.
 

onemoretime

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Fe - My feelings are real so I need to express them

Defensive Fe postures arise from a lack of sufficient or appropriate response to the outer expression of these feelings. I tell you I am angry, why don't you respond? The other functions are quick to justify the initial response and filter reactions.

I think you're right, but there may be a shade of difference - I'd say that the defense is not necessarily from a lack of response, but a lack of validation - "I'm having these feelings, and I need to know that you understand why I'm feeling this way", regardless of whether the feelings make any sense. Come at someone in full-blown Fe dominant rage, and no, a hard logical response isn't going to get you anywhere. Letting them know that you understand why they're like that, and they're perfectly justified in feeling this way, though their expression of it is a little selfish, is a much more effective response than just giving attention.

Fe-dominants are not going to often tell the true reason for their feelings, for fear of rejection by the other person ("you're ungrateful", "you're insane", "that's silly, why didn't you bring it up before?", "you're completely irrational", "that's not true"), and the deepest fear they have - the dissolution of their relationship with that person.
 

PeaceBaby

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^ Well said, I have amended my lil explanation above to add "why don't you CARE?"
 

heart

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See the thing is, which is what I wonder about when people complain about the ExFJs and FJs in their life, is are they taking the 10 things that annoy them about this person and completely blowing it up to be the whole of their being? No one is trying to stop valid criticism. But the noise of I hate it when Fe does this and Fe does that is all you hear. And like I said already, the complaints aren't even original. It's the same old same old.

About my boss: She has been at my organization for 15 years. If you've been at a place that long, you'll naturally go up the ladder simply by virtue of seniority or being the last man standing. My particular department has been through two turnovers since 2000 (I just started in 2006) and she is the person who's been here the longest and knows the most.

I think she's a decent person and I can handle both her good and her bad qualities. She is not leadership material and she's not a good supervisor. Does that mean I dislike her as a person? No. I feel like I'm capable of separating her personal attributes from her professional ones. Her professional attributes are nightmarish occasionally, but I don't inflate those things to the whole of her person. It often seems to me that people inflate an FJs negative traits (which every person has) to some twisted caricature of the whole person. And then they give some MBTI cliche positive traits to make up for it and I see very little nuanced criticism of Fi (maybe because the second largest type group on the forum is INFP) to balance the criticism of Fe.


In this case, to my view, whether or not she is a nice or good person or if you like her on a personal level doesn't seem to factor in. She's a part of your professional life and you have to deal with her on a professional level. It's her professional behavior that causes you stress.

It seems like she was placed in a job that she wasn't suited for and so how can the people around help but magnify her negative traits? Her negative traits seem directly opposed to her position so they stick out like a sore thumb, it has nothing to do with if she is a nice or good person but that she's not competent and that causes frustration and dysfunction. Your complains about her seem valid and I feel a lot of sympathy for you over it.

Like I am thinking of an FJ relative. I know she has good traits but her position relative to me places her in a postion where I bear the brunt of her bad traits and the fallout from them without gaining any of the benefit of her good traits, so hence I'm more likely to rant than glorify her. But there's another EFP female relative who displays negative Fi traits and I've ranted about her too. In fact, I won't talk to her anymore.

BTW, I do see criticism all over this board for INFPs. We're just aimless, whining cry babies who are so selfish, we're boring and we bother people with useless things like values and we all want to return to Disneyland and childhood and we let everyone around us down because we're so self centered.

By larger point earlier was just to say I realize that I put out shadow vibes that J types can pick up on. I mean, yeah there are people I do avoid or that cringe before I have to deal with them because of their "are you depressed? Are you upset? Are you mad?" type questioning. Like there's this one relative:

On the phone:

"Are you depressed?"
"No, why do you ask?" --- Me
"Well, you're talking really slow."
"I had an antihistiamine earlier because I was feeling sick and now I feel pretty tired."
"Yes, but you always talk so slow."
"I was raised in Texas." ---- Me, laughing now.
"So, are you going to tell me what you're depressed about?"
"I am in a fine mood today, what's going on with you?"
"Come on, tell me what's going on." Person growing irritated.
 

PeaceBaby

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BTW, I do see criticism all over this board for INFPs. We're just aimless, whining cry babies who are so selfish, we're boring and we bother people with useless things like values and we all want to return to Disneyland and childhood and we let everyone around us down because we're so self centered.

Agreed LOL!
 

Thalassa

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BTW, I do see criticism all over this board for INFPs. We're just aimless, whining cry babies who are so selfish, we're boring and we bother people with useless things like values and we all want to return to Disneyland and childhood and we let everyone around us down because we're so self centered.

:yes:
 

jenocyde

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BTW, I do see criticism all over this board for INFPs. We're just aimless, whining cry babies who are so selfish, we're boring and we bother people with useless things like values and we all want to return to Disneyland and childhood and we let everyone around us down because we're so self centered.

To be fair, all types are criticized badly. You notice the INFP stuff because that's your type, but I never noticed it. Either way, you're not alone. :hug:
 
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