MBTI and the Four Temperaments (Humors)

[Shadow]

Is there any correlation? I would assume that I corresponds to melancholy and E corresponds to sanguine while J corresponds to choleric and P to phlegmatic. But, looking at my own personality (ISTJ - Melancholy Phlegmatic), I think it's more complicated than that.

I thought ISTJ was purely Melancholy? I definitely also have a Melancholy Phlegmatic temperament though, so there could be something in it.

 

[Wild horses]

I find this quite interesting actually! Anyone know about homeopathic types as I feel that that may spring up an interesting correlation too.. WIll have to dig out a homeopathic diagnostic thingy for yall

 

[Eric B]

I thought ISTJ was purely Melancholy? I definitely also have a Melancholy Phlegmatic temperament though, so there could be something in it.

ISTJ is pure Melancholy because both "Chart the Course" (IST) and "Guardian" (SJ) both represent two aspects of the general Melancholy profile. People can also have a third temperament area, where they can be another temperament. So maybe you're a Mel-Mel-Phleg.

To answer the post you quoted, Melancholy is not I by itself, as I (introversion) is only one one of the two factors. The other factor making up Melancholy is task-focus or directiveness, which is determined by T for Sensors, and J for iNtuitors.

 

[Kasper]

I find this quite interesting actually! Anyone know about homeopathic types as I feel that that may spring up an interesting correlation too.. WIll have to dig out a homeopathic diagnostic thingy for yall

What cafe said way back when;

I don't think MBTI temperaments correlate with humors temperaments particularly well.

I know quite a bit about them but the more I learn about MBTI the more pointless I see trying to correlate one with the other. That said these two are backwards;

NTs phlegmatic
NFs choleric

 

[527468]

I don't count supine as a temperament. Why? because it doesn't actually qualify as a temperament description.

Depends upon the person/depends upon the personality. So there is correlation.

High Arousal-Pleasant = Sanguine
Low Arousal-Pleasant = Phlegmatic
High Arousal-Unpleasant = Choleric
Low Arousal-Unpleasant = Melancholic

Word of advice, don't always relate Choleric with Anger. Choleric can mean many emotions of the "High Arousal-Unpleasant" category such as Fear. Anger and Fear can both come from the same arousal of course.

 

[/DG/]

Well, I took this test >> OneIshy :: Personality/Temperament Test a lil while ago and I got Phlegmatic Melancholy. It fits my personality almost perfectly.

However, according to what everyone is saying, ISFPs do not have the Phlegmatic Melancholy personality. =P

 

[Wild horses]

Oh no trinity..... You are trying to kill me... an innocent ENFP cos 'what cafe said way back when' would mean I would have to look for it and being VERY sleep deprived and generally an ENFP with no concentration span I'm going to have to assume it's what you have further down the post and so in response.... fair point

 

[Eric B]

I don't count supine as a temperament. Why? because it doesn't actually qualify as a temperament description.

Depends upon the person/depends upon the personality. So there is correlation.

High Arousal-Pleasant = Sanguine
Low Arousal-Pleasant = Phlegmatic
High Arousal-Unpleasant = Choleric
Low Arousal-Unpleasant = Melancholic

The Supine temperament was discovered apparently by realizing that the Phlegmatic is really moderate in both of those scales. He does appear "low arousal", but it's really for a different reason than the Melancholic. The Melancholic is driven by fear (rejection, failure, etc), the Phlegmatic simply has low energy. The Phlegmatic also appears "pleasant" compared to the Melancholic and choleric, but in reality can "take people or leave them". This also is due to the lack of energy that pushes the other temperaments to either want or reject others.

There also happened to be some people who were very fearful of rejection like the Melancholic, but had a high need for other people like a Sanguine. This is what the supine is, and I can certainly testify of those needs.

These images illustrate the concept:

http://www.erictb.info/grayscales.jpg

Word of advice, don't always relate Choleric with Anger. Choleric can mean many emotions of the "High Arousal-Unpleasant" category such as Fear. Anger and Fear can both come from the same arousal of course.

True, but the Choleric traditionally has the least problems with fear, due to their expressive and directive (i.e. "unpleasant") nature.

 

["?"]

I originally considered Temperament and MBT the same, however after studying Berens and Nardi's work I can appreciate the obvious distinictions. I have said before the succession of general to specific is quite clear:

Temperament is very general and makes distinctions between the four groups. This is a very good place for newcomers to limit their choice of type to four. I am in complete disagreement that Keirsey's system allows you to determine your type for obvious reasons that I have posted more than once on the forum. Keirsey considered the introversion of NT and NF types, but wrote his SP descriptions based on the extraverted function.

MBTI allows one to go to the next level, but does it using dichotomies. By now everyone knows my opinion of dichotomies and the system seems to keep you in a circular reasoning because the dichotomies are forced choices. In truth no one is 100% any dichotomy.

Jung is too wordy for the average person, but the cognitive functions can give you at least an indication of preference. In the end temperament, in my opinion gives a very good general indication of your preference for core values and Jung's cognitive functions allows you to pinpoint your exact type. MBTI in my opinion is entertainment reading but is not always applicable.

 

[Eric B]

Temperament seems to be a combination of needs driven ultimately by the cognitive preferences. Like an "introvert" being determined by having an introverted function as dominant. Whether the judgment is Thinking or Feeling, or whether the J is extraverted then determines the other temperament factor (responsiveness). So they are very much two sides of the same coin.
But yes, temperament is more general or elementary and cognitive dynamics more in depth.

 

[TaylorS]

Well, I took this test >> OneIshy :: Personality/Temperament Test a lil while ago and I got Phlegmatic Melancholy. It fits my personality almost perfectly.

However, according to what everyone is saying, ISFPs do not have the Phlegmatic Melancholy personality. =P

INTJ, Melancholic-Choleric. Fits me perfectly as well.

 

[coronzon93]

I think the axes can be paired to yield correlations. my guesses are as follows:
IN: Melancholic
EN: Sanguine
IS: Phlegmatic
ES: Choleric
Ix: Melancholic/Phlegmatic(Cold)
Ex: Choleric/Sanguine (Hot)
TP: Phlegmatic
FP: Sanguine
TJ: Melancholic
FJ: Choleric
xP: Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Moist)
xJ: Choleric/Melancholic (Dry)

I'm an IxTJ, therefore in my theoretical correlation, I'm Cold and Melancholic or Melancholic/Phlegmatic with Melancholic dominant. Items I haven't established a correlation with are Ax (Ambiversion and SN-medium) AS, AN, Tx, Fx, and xx (in this case refering to TF-medium and JP-medium).

Feel free to offer opinions. I don't believe in the Five Temperament model, but if you do, you can modify my model for your own use.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Correction. I received choleric melancholy.

 

[Chiharu]

I think the axes can be paired to yield correlations. my guesses are as follows:
IN: Melancholic
EN: Sanguine
IS: Phlegmatic
ES: Choleric
Ix: Melancholic/Phlegmatic(Cold)
Ex: Choleric/Sanguine (Hot)
TP: Phlegmatic
FP: Sanguine
TJ: Melancholic
FJ: Choleric
xP: Phlegmatic/Sanguine (Moist)
xJ: Choleric/Melancholic (Dry)

I'm an IxTJ, therefore in my theoretical correlation, I'm Cold and Melancholic or Melancholic/Phlegmatic with Melancholic dominant. Items I haven't established a correlation with are Ax (Ambiversion and SN-medium) AS, AN, Tx, Fx, and xx (in this case refering to TF-medium and JP-medium).

Feel free to offer opinions. I don't believe in the Five Temperament model, but if you do, you can modify my model for your own use.

I think you may be on to something here. I'm ENFP, and my scores have been all over the map, but always as Sanguine primary. I was told I ought to be SangPhleg or SangChol. The only blend I ever felt confident in was SangMel, but that's really more of a social mask. So, thank you for posting this and making me feel like less of an anomaly. =)

 

[Eric B]

Here's a similar discussion, where I lay it all out according to the temperament factors:

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/61422-temperaments-mbti-functions.html#post1491148
http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/61422-temperaments-mbti-functions-2.html#post1494811

 

[Thalassa]

I don't know but depending on the theory I'm either Sanguine-Phlegmatic (the theory that Eric B has posted on the site)....but in terms of other forms of the theory or tests I've taken I've gotten some traits of Melancholic...I don't know if those tests are just crap, or it's because socially I'm more introverted and I'm pretty sensitive.

I remember I read this book written by this fundamentalist Christian lady many years ago and I related to traits of both Sanguine and Melancholic in that particular book. Happy/Sad. Bipolar. LOL.

 

[Eric B]

That must have been Florence Littauer, who is associated with LaHaye.

It seems that many Melancholy descriptions have traits that anyone can identify with. I generally come out with it when I do traits tests as well. Here is another post from that other discussion today, where I really explain why they might not match all the time:
http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/61422-temperaments-mbti-functions-2.html#post1494768
Melancholy also is described as having "strong feelings", which makes it sound like F, but for the purest Melancholy (The ISTJ), it would be from the tertiary Fi. Stuff like that in these cheaper tests is what will further throw things off.

 

[Thalassa]

That must have been Florence Littauer, who is associated with LaHaye.

It seems that many Melancholy descriptions have traits that anyone can identify with. I generally come out with it when I do traits tests as well. Here is another post from that other discussion today, where I really explain why they might not match all the time:
http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/61422-temperaments-mbti-functions-2.html#post1494768
Melancholy also is described as having "strong feelings", which makes it sound like F, but for the purest Melancholy (The ISTJ), it would be from the tertiary Fi. Stuff like that in these cheaper tests is what will further throw things off.

Well, number one I've suffered from clinical depression, so that may have something to do with it, and two...it makes it sound like Melancholics write poetry, love art, and are aware of the pain and tragedy in the world. However, I could care less about being on time and I'm not sure I'm a perfectionist, either. I respond much more strongly to stimuli as well.

ISTJ is the ENFPs shadow self, and I know I'm more consciously aware of my Si than some ENFPs for whatever weird reason (being rasied by two SJs, so therefore forced to cultivate it to an extent at a younger age?) ...it's funny though because I think I fought against Si and ran from it in my teens in absolute horror, but embraced it more and more by the time I was in my twenties. I still hate working with details though. The devil is in the details, bro. *shudders*

I definitely think it makes sense for ISTJ to be Melancholic and ENFP to be Sanguine though.

ISTJ said to me the other day "you're happy, I'm sad." At first I took it literally and was like "lolwut, no"...but then he explained how much more cynical he is, how he's more subdued and pessimistic, and yeah...

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Why would I get Melancholic Choleric if I am an ENTP?... Very INTJ-ish.

 

[Eric B]

Well, number one I've suffered from clinical depression, so that may have something to do with it, and two...it makes it sound like Melancholics write poetry, love art, and are aware of the pain and tragedy in the world. However, I could care less about being on time and I'm not sure I'm a perfectionist, either. I respond much more strongly to stimuli as well.

ISTJ is the ENFPs shadow self, and I know I'm more consciously aware of my Si than some ENFPs for whatever weird reason (being rasied by two SJs, so therefore forced to cultivate it to an extent at a younger age?) ...it's funny though because I think I fought against Si and ran from it in my teens in absolute horror, but embraced it more and more by the time I was in my twenties. I still hate working with details though. The devil is in the details, bro. *shudders*

I definitely think it makes sense for ISTJ to be Melancholic and ENFP to be Sanguine though.

ISTJ said to me the other day "you're happy, I'm sad." At first I took it literally and was like "lolwut, no"...but then he explained how much more cynical he is, how he's more subdued and pessimistic, and yeah...

All of that certainly makes sense.

Melancholies in the classic temperament systems generally are portrayed as the artistic ones; generally where the SP's (especially ISFP) are in Keirsey's system. Just imagine that hurdles I had to clear when I first saw the Keirsey temperaments with the "Artisan" as the Sanguine, and the Feeling temperament as Choleric.

The classic system seemed to make sense, because my father is very artistic, and an ISTJ-Melancholy. (That really showed when I was younger. Now, it's my mother; also ISTJ=pure Melancholy, whose artisticness has really blossomed in retirement. There's also a lot of Ne--developed inferior in the stuff she makes).

I guess artisticness is a general S thing, and SJ's will focus more on internalized stuff, while SP's will probably be more about the current senses.
for some reason, Keirsey only picked this up in the SP's. The Galen systems identified it in the Melancholy. The systems before APS did not have the "Control area" distinction, so did not pick up any artisticness in the Sanguine, beyond their focus on "the senses" (which as mentioned in classic temperament, though not associated with Jung's "Sensing" function).

ISTP of course, is the one who is both Melancholic and Artisan. It actually was the only type known as "the Artisan" back when Keirsey had his old temperament names (with the SP as "Dionysian").
The ISFP was called "The Artist". That one is often [informally] called "melancholy", though neither the Interaction Style, nor the conative temperament are Melancholic. (It's Phlegmatic-Sanguine). I guess it's similar to the ISTJ, but with the Feeling out front instead of tertiary, and again, more current sense focused.

Why would I get Melancholic Choleric if I am an ENTP?... Very INTJ-ish.

I saw that before, but didn't notice your My Personality badge. So I went to your profile, but saw ESFP. So you changed? You actually said Choleric Melancholy in the previous post. That suggests ESTJ. (Don't know you enough to really have my own sense of your type).
ENTP fits SanChlor (Jenocyde is good example, and others here have fit it as well). Don't know why it would come out Melancholy in place of Sanguine. I could see the Choleric being mellowed into Melancholy.