N's feeling pressured to act like S's?

[kelric]

LOL "some jobs". That's a bold overstatement... how about "next to no" jobs?

We all know jobs comparable to being an army general are just as plentiful as those comparable to enlisted men.

you're giving me semantics, sailor, so i'll give you the same: you implied that ALL jobs were looking for detail oriented people, i just proved you wrong.

besides, since there are so many less people being N, it is only natural that there would be less N based jobs, don't you think? and if you can't find those, then i'm thinking you're looking in the wrong places. try google?

Sentura, I think what Mac was trying to say is that whether or not the actual tasks of a job are all about details (although for most jobs, they *are*), that employers don't actively look for people who would describe themselves as "not detail oriented - more of a big picture person". Are there exceptions? Probably. But in my experience they are VERY rare (as in, I've never seen one - Mac's "all" is a more accurate general statement than "some" or even "a large majority" would be). The reason people hire other people to work for them is to take care of the details the employer doesn't have time for - the employer thinks that they themselves are in charge of the big picture - even if the job's for a "big picture" type role - the scope of "details" changes much more than the employer wanting a "detail oriented" person.

Let's face it - a lot of people see "not really detail oriented" as meaning "lazy and not conscientious." It's probably not as bad a thing to put on your resume as "convicted felon" - but it's going to be a stumbling block against getting hired for almost anything (you'd want to do) either.

 

[Sentura]

Sentura, I think what Mac was trying to say is that whether or not the actual tasks of a job are all about details (although for most jobs, they *are*), that employers don't actively look for people who would describe themselves as "not detail oriented - more of a big picture person". Are there exceptions? Probably. But in my experience they are VERY rare (as in, I've never seen one - Mac's "all" is a more accurate general statement than "some" or even "a large majority" would be). The reason people hire other people to work for them is to take care of the details the employer doesn't have time for - the employer thinks that they themselves are in charge of the big picture - even if the job's for a "big picture" type role - the scope of "details" changes much more than the employer wanting a "detail oriented" person.

Let's face it - a lot of people see "not really detail oriented" as meaning "lazy and not conscientious." It's probably not as bad a thing to put on your resume as "convicted felon" - but it's going to be a stumbling block against getting hired for almost anything (you'd want to do) either.

good point with the employer being the big picture person. however, there can be a 'smaller' bigger picture inside a larger bigger picture. my point was that i can easily dig up a dozen jobs within a few different spheres that are not concerned with details. while these may have requirements, i'm saying that these same jobs would be done better by a N person than a S person. keep in mind that i dig these up in denmark (5 million inhabitants), so scale up for larger countries.

the reason i think you're missing the point is that you are concentrated on one specific sphere. there are plenty of good job opportunities without degrees if you choose to look for them. if you can't find them, try somewhere else. beggars can't be choosers.

and of course you'll be able to find good and bad wording for every situation. but honestly, not writing detail oriented on a CV is hardly going to make a difference in whether you get a job or not. i'm sure qualifications come before statements without merit.

as for your experience: i don't really care what you think is a better approximate of whether what jobs there are most of. there is perhaps a 60/40 worker/manager ratio worldwide if you include middle management. 20-30% of the world's population are N, the rest are S. just because you haven't been able to find any doesn't mean they don't exist. the proof of claim rests on the plaintiff, not the defendant.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

I'm going through something at my job right now that seems like just such pressure. I have an ISFJ boss who having never read an ESFJ description in his life is nearly reciting one to me in his "advice"! ESFJs are fine but I'm not one. I don't see things the same way and I never will. I'm finding that I am growing ever resentful about it.

 

[MacGuffin]

good point with the employer being the big picture person. however, there can be a 'smaller' bigger picture inside a larger bigger picture. my point was that i can easily dig up a dozen jobs within a few different spheres that are not concerned with details. while these may have requirements, i'm saying that these same jobs would be done better by a N person than a S person. keep in mind that i dig these up in denmark (5 million inhabitants), so scale up for larger countries.

the reason i think you're missing the point is that you are concentrated on one specific sphere. there are plenty of good job opportunities without degrees if you choose to look for them. if you can't find them, try somewhere else. beggars can't be choosers.

and of course you'll be able to find good and bad wording for every situation. but honestly, not writing detail oriented on a CV is hardly going to make a difference in whether you get a job or not. i'm sure qualifications come before statements without merit.

as for your experience: i don't really care what you think is a better approximate of whether what jobs there are most of. there is perhaps a 60/40 worker/manager ratio worldwide if you include middle management. 20-30% of the world's population are N, the rest are S. just because you haven't been able to find any doesn't mean they don't exist. the proof of claim rests on the plaintiff, not the defendant.

Even middle management is very detail-oriented.

Did you get that memo about the TPS cover sheets?

 

[OrangeAppled]

good point with the employer being the big picture person. however, there can be a 'smaller' bigger picture inside a larger bigger picture. my point was that i can easily dig up a dozen jobs within a few different spheres that are not concerned with details. while these may have requirements, i'm saying that these same jobs would be done better by a N person than a S person. keep in mind that i dig these up in denmark (5 million inhabitants), so scale up for larger countries.

In the US, they put "detail-oriented" in the job description whether it's really necessary or not. It's something I've noticed as well. It's just some buzz word that they love to throw in. It shows how the S values dominate society though, as the criteria is often based on what they think is important vs what is really required to do the job well.

I can tell when extroverts write the job descriptions too - they always want "people persons" and "upbeat attitudes", even for notoriously introverted jobs like graphic design - yeah, good luck with that.

Ultimately, every job will have some mundane crap you have to take care of. That's just life. The more you can minimize it the better. I find myself being quite innovative at times in trying to get out of doing "busy" work.

I think I have "detail-oriented" on my resume, come to think of it. I may even have "team player"

 

[MacGuffin]

"People oriented" E
"Detail oriented" S
"Team player" F
"Time management skills" J




And you all wonder why INTPs bitch so much about working???

 

[Lauren Ashley]

"People oriented" E
"Detail oriented" S
"Team player" F
"Time management skills" J




And you all wonder why INTPs bitch so much about working???

What about:

"level-headed and rational" T

 

[MacGuffin]

What about:

"level-headed and rational" T

Sometimes you see something similar to this, but not always. F/T is the function that seems to be in the neighborhood of 50/50.

 

[Southern Kross]

In the US, they put "detail-oriented" in the job description whether it's really necessary or not. It's something I've noticed as well. It's just some buzz word that they love to throw in. It shows how the S values dominate society though, as the criteria is often based on what they think is important vs what is really required to do the job well.

I can tell when extroverts write the job descriptions too - they always want "people persons" and "upbeat attitudes", even for notoriously introverted jobs like graphic design - yeah, good luck with that.

Ultimately, every job will have some mundane crap you have to take care of. That's just life. The more you can minimize it the better. I find myself being quite innovative at times in trying to get out of doing "busy" work.

I think I have "detail-oriented" on my resume, come to think of it. I may even have "team player"

Yeah, I try to stay away from bold-faced lies myself

I have in my CV that I possess (and I quote):

- Adaptability and flexibility
- A thorough work ethic and eagerness to learn
- An ability to work independently and take initiative
- Conscientiousness and dependability

These are emphasizing my INFP skills but I always have a sneaking suspicion that people will read the above as:

- unable to keep to schedules
- nerdy but without practical or useful knowledge
- can't work in groups or follow orders
- boring

Maybe I'm just being paranoid. I must say its interesting to think about all this code speak for types.

 

[cascadeco]

I can't say that I feel pressured to 'act S' - although to echo what someone else already wrote in here, I don't really know what that means anyway. I don't feel any pressure at all to perceive the world in a different way, but the way I perceive/view/prioritize things does mean I feel intensely alone, and separate, from the vast majority. At times I feel that I belong nowhere, with no group. So it can be quite lonely at times. But this isn't a constant state (which is good)!!

I think there are a lot more demands for extroversion though, and I feel some level of pressure in most situations to be more extroverted than I really am. I inevitably feel the need to talk/interact/externalize more than I really want to. Social interactions just kinda require that, by their very nature. And since people are talking about jobs, there are a lot of jobs out there that I don't even want to entertain (customer service, anything phone/sales-related, management, retail, probably most positions in the medical field, etc), or know I'd be miserable at or stressed out with, because I'm so introverted and really dislike interacting in such a fast-paced manner, with such a people-focus.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Sometimes you see something similar to this, but not always. F/T is the function that seems to be in the neighborhood of 50/50.

In most professions it is an advantage to be a T. A significant advantage. There is an issue of team player which may come into play, but I don't correlate F-ness with being a team player. That is an extroverted trait. If you are a T, then when the finger pointing starts, politics get tense, you don't get sick and/or cry like a little girl. Except for settings like the PTA or such things, I think T trumps F almost every time in professional settings. If it didn't then I think the natural feminine traits would be much more easily accepted. I remember living with the label "the sweet one". Try living that down in a professional setting and see how it is to be an F. Not much of an advantage. Trust me on that one.

Maybe there is a gender difference. Think about the stereotype of the successful professional woman as a bitch. Also think about the requirements to compartmentalize thinking in professional settings. The rules tend to be male-dominated. This masculine culture tends more towards the same traits associated with being a T. It is just as true in real life as it is on these boards that Thinking is correlated with intelligence and Feeling, well, not so much. The professional world holds this same stereotype although it is more articulated in terms of masculine vs. feminine rather than MBTI categories. The principles are nearly identical.

 

[OrangeAppled]

In most professions it is an advantage to be a T. A significant advantage. There is an issue of team player which may come into play, but I don't correlate F-ness with being a team player. That is an extroverted trait. If you are a T, then when the finger pointing starts, politics get tense, you don't get sick and/or cry like a little girl. Except for settings like the PTA or such things, I think T trumps F almost every time in professional settings. If it didn't then I think the natural feminine traits would be much more easily accepted. I remember living with the label "the sweet one". Try living that down in a professional setting and see how it is to be an F. Not much of an advantage. Trust me on that one.

Maybe there is a gender difference. Think about the stereotype of the successful professional woman as a bitch. Also think about the requirements to compartmentalize thinking in professional settings. The rules tend to be male-dominated. This masculine culture tends more towards the same traits associated with being a T.

...but when F is valued, it is Fe over Fi.

 

[Sentura]

In most professions it is an advantage to be a T. A significant advantage. There is an issue of team player which may come into play, but I don't correlate F-ness with being a team player. That is an extroverted trait. If you are a T, then when the finger pointing starts, politics get tense, you don't get sick and/or cry like a little girl. Except for settings like the PTA or such things, I think T trumps F almost every time in professional settings. If it didn't then I think the natural feminine traits would be much more easily accepted. I remember living with the label "the sweet one". Try living that down in a professional setting and see how it is to be an F. Not much of an advantage. Trust me on that one.

T is professionalism incarnate.

 

[wolfy]

It is an advantage to be a T in most jobs, sometimes Fe but mostly T. That's just the way that is. Objectivity rules the day, hide your values away.

 

[CrystalViolet]

This is interesting, a N-coworker and I were discussing this the other day. Both of us struggle to keep up with the details of our profession. I've been in it for decidely longer than she has, so she was asking me how I got round it. Basically I told her I learned to anticipate potential hurdles, and I learned how to concentrate for longer....althought if I was tired or sick, it was way harder for me to do. I also told it gets easier because you don't have to think about the actual act so much so you can concentrate on the details...and also that with time you get really good at catching your self glossing over things. So I had become a master of double checking. I blend in pretty well now.
So to answer the OP, I have felt a certain amount of pressure, although with time my Ne certainly has given me an advantage with other aspects of my job (Politics mostly).
Certainly you can tell by my conversation patterns, and the way I bunny hop through tasks (Ne multi tasking can drive some people nuts, but there is a huge dollop of Te being utilised also) that I'm intuitive. And truth be told, I've found being introverted in my profession to actually be a distinct advantage....I know most people can't say that, but it's true. It's a decided workplace advantage if I keep my cards close to my chest.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

...but when F is valued, it is Fe over Fi.

I agree. It would be nearly impossible to make a case to the contrary. Fi is arguably the least valued or used function in the world externally. Try to think of scenarios in which it results in power or money. Pretty tough to come up with a list.

The introverts with Fe have a somewhat more complex relationship to the outside world. On the one hand they are in a position to more quickly develop those external skills than the Fi person, but are also morely likely to internalize the actualize negativity and have less ability to cope through internal escapism. I do think that the Fi dominants are the most overlooked and undervalued professionally. I see it in my field and mine is the performing arts where outsiders could easily assume F is a strength. Cut-throat competition weeds out any internal sensitivity. It makes these people physically sick and forces them out. The level of emotional communication that aids professionally is so shallow that it is easily faked. Because of that even Feelers have to fake it because it is not related to the actual thought processes of Feeling.

I would argue that Te dominants have the greatest advantage and any types that can emulate that style will share that advantage.

 

[Sentura]

Even middle management is very detail-oriented.

Did you get that memo about the TPS cover sheets?

okay, let's put it differently: having the overview of an entire company is still a detail in comparison to having an overview of the entire market economy. having the overview of the market economy is still a detail in comparison to having the overview of an entire country. having an overview of our planet is a detail in comparison to having an overview of the entire galaxy, universe or what may be beyond.

so yeah, middle management is detail-oriented because there isn't anything that isn't detail oriented in our world. however, every detail needs an overview. you need an overview of a class or program to justify a code snippet, you need an overview of a paragraph to be able to read every sentence within.

also, take a look at something here that isn't detail oriented (note while the locations may not be in the US, the company is based in america):

https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000Gs7NAAS
https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000HAKvAAO
https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000HtnEAAS

and additionally some that do not require any formal education:

https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000HpxzAAC
https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000HvGCAA0

that was just looking for, what, some 5-10 minutes?

 

[Randomnity]

Actually, I feel pressured to act like an N, in my field (research). It's all about seeing the big picture, and connecting (seemingly) random pieces of information. I understand that this isn't the norm, but I don't think it's the only N-dominated field either.

More than that though, I feel E-pressured. That may be because I'm a fairly strong I though.

Just for comparison

 

[MacGuffin]

okay, let's put it differently: having the overview of an entire company is still a detail in comparison to having an overview of the entire market economy. having the overview of the market economy is still a detail in comparison to having the overview of an entire country. having an overview of our planet is a detail in comparison to having an overview of the entire galaxy, universe or what may be beyond.

so yeah, middle management is detail-oriented because there isn't anything that isn't detail oriented in our world. however, every detail needs an overview. you need an overview of a class or program to justify a code snippet, you need an overview of a paragraph to be able to read every sentence within.

also, take a look at something here that isn't detail oriented (note while the locations may not be in the US, the company is based in america):

https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000Gs7NAAS
https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000HAKvAAO
https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000HtnEAAS

and additionally some that do not require any formal education:

https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000HpxzAAC
https://jobs.ea.com/jobs/jobposting.aspx?postid=a0z50000000HvGCAA0

that was just looking for, what, some 5-10 minutes?

Where's the cover sheet mentioned in the memo?

EA is always looking for those people. They rarely hire though. It's just a "dream job" listing.

 

[Amargith]

Yes, I feel pressured to be an S. Could be coz I work as a secretary/receptionist. Details and organisation man..part of the job. I can multitask as no other, I'm good and thorough at what I do, but I do not do details or keep track of time well. And those things I fumble up or stress about so much in order to do them right that I cannot relax during the day. I try to learn but its...hopeless
Also, during a task that is very detail-oriented, I check three times if I didn't forget something or looked over something. It makes me really perfectionistic and accurate, and I learned to do it fast, so I do a good job..but it stresses me to no end. Luckily the other aspects of my job are more up my alley

One thing I seem to do perfectly fine is destress people that come to my station to just vent or unwind. Like my ESFJ boss...he needs to be able to share sometimes (he's really under a lot of pressure). Unfortunately that's just not part of my jobdescription though, so I'd be better off being an ESFJ myself in this job, considering the tasks that are in fact in my jobdescription