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Distrustful of Fe?

The_Liquid_Laser

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Why are people so distrustful of Fe? It is the one function that I see the most consistently criticized (along with Si) as being hypocritical, manipulative, self-righteous, and insincere. What about this function makes people think of it in those terms?

Imagine what the world would be like without Fe. I think it would be a very unwelcoming place. If belonging (cue theme from "Cheers") is important to people then I think Fe is the mechanism through which this occurs. Is Fi able to do this just as well as Fe? Are people wary of Fi also or is this only reserved for Fe?

You have to consider the group you are talking to. Fe is useful for making everyone feel included in some sort of social group. Unfortunately for people who are unusual Fe can make them feel even more excluded. This is true more so for SFJ's than NFJ's, since SFJ's are more oriented toward maintaining tradition and accepted standards. (Based on my limited experience with NFJ's, I have found they are very good at making everyone feel included regardless of who they are.)

Now consider that this board is dominated by INxx's who feel misunderstood by everyone. Their experience with Fe is usually bad, because it causes them to be excluded. Additionally many NT's don't really understand Fe because it is a weak function for us. (I know that I personally view many social conventions as pointless.)

Then you also have to consider that we are a community, but a community with a decided weakness in Fe, so that makes our community a bit socially retarded in some ways. ;) Most societies (including ours) need some type of scapegoat to bring everyone together. The lack of Fe in this one means that we need several: sensors, extraverts, people with a strong Fe preference, etc.... The thinkers have to use their vaunted intelligence to determine the "worst" judging function, and they have "logically" decided that it is Fe. :huh:

Ok the previous paragraph is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek of course. ;) This is a place where a lot of people come to gripe and escape from their RL problems, so sometimes it's good to take what is said with a grain of salt. :)
 

heart

heart on fire
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That sounds about right. Fe is a weak spot of mine, and when it's used against me, it hurts. My mom has a tendency to use it against me, for one. It's an easy place for her to reach, but one that I have difficulty with.

For me, when some Fe dominant people demand Fe of me, it is hard because it often feels fake or forced. They often don't understand this and see it as me being "cold". My explainations do not matter. They push harder or get angry and then the whole situation is soured for me and hard for me to deal with. Unfortunately for me, most of the women in my family, but my own and my spouse's are Fe dominant.

Until reading more MBTI have totally not understood them and often seen them as being totally opposed to me, it has been through MBTI that I have been able to see that this is just the way their brains work, but often it still feels like :BangHead:. I am still a work in progress in trying to better understand how to interact with them.

The problem for me often is that my gut is telling me one thing and their lips are telling me another and then sooner or later their actions match up with my guts but their lips keep denying it. I just get so frustrated with the whole scene.
 

proteanmix

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You have to consider the group you are talking to. Fe is useful for making everyone feel included in some sort of social group. Unfortunately for people who are unusual Fe can make them feel even more excluded. This is true more so for SFJ's than NFJ's, since SFJ's are more oriented toward maintaining tradition and accepted standards. (Based on my limited experience with NFJ's, I have found they are very good at making everyone feel included regardless of who they are.)

Now consider that this board is dominated by INxx's who feel misunderstood by everyone. Their experience with Fe is usually bad, because it causes them to be excluded. Additionally many NT's don't really understand Fe because it is a weak function for us. (I know that I personally view many social conventions as pointless.)

Then you also have to consider that we are a community, but a community with a decided weakness in Fe, so that makes our community a bit socially retarded in some ways. ;) Most societies (including ours) need some type of scapegoat to bring everyone together. The lack of Fe in this one means that we need several: sensors, extraverts, people with a strong Fe preference, etc.... The thinkers have to use their vaunted intelligence to determine the "worst" judging function, and they have "logically" decided that it is Fe. :huh:

Ok the previous paragraph is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek of course. ;) This is a place where a lot of people come to gripe and escape from their RL problems, so sometimes it's good to take what is said with a grain of salt. :)

Believe you me, I was/am very aware of my audience. This is a topic that I've thought about frequently in the past, especially as a lurker at INTPc and I noticed the contempt towards Fe. I know the primary audience is not one that is willing to believe that Fe is not an evil function seeking to destroy individuality and souls because all it's concerned about is appearances and conformity. It's not like I haven't been the recipient of immature Fe, so I know it happens. The responses have actually been a lot tamer than what I anticipated so I guess that's a good thing.
 

Park

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Additionally many NT's don't really understand Fe because it is a weak function for us.

I do think many ENTPs and INTPs have a pretty good understanding of Fe. I also think many of us use it quite skillfully. It makes sense to me that the described chameleon trait in INTPs is supported by Fe.
 

Blackwater

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Bluewing while you have previously been spot on in your critique of feelers (and indeed, other types) I think you are hammering Fe harder over the head than it actually deserves, or at the very least charging ENFJs with typical ESFJ shortcommings.

proteanmix, the central problem of Fe is that existance cannot be reduced to introjection of social input an norms. Accountability (to others - and to oneself) comes from an ontological core that must always be beyond what others feel or think and so the fields the Fe naturally harvests for input will never yield the proper ontological nutrition. Persons relying solely on Fe will experience no real sense of being and that is precisely why other N-types are so distrustful of it.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Bluewing while you have previously been spot on in your critique of feelers (and indeed, other types) I think you are hammering Fe harder over the head than it actually deserves, or at the very least charging ENFJs with typical ESFJ shortcommings.

proteanmix, the central problem of Fe is that existance cannot be reduced to introjection of social input an norms. Accountability (to others - and to oneself) comes from an ontological core that must always be beyond what others feel or think and so the fields the Fe naturally harvests for input will never yield the proper ontological nutrition. Persons relying solely on Fe will experience no real sense of being and that is precisely why other N-types are so distrustful of it.

I was only talking about neurotic Fe. It is far more common among ESFJs than ENFJs because Ni is more internally focused.

Your second paragraph is cogent, however we can bring the same charge against other extroverted functions, like Te and Ne. Tes would likely be in danger of focusing too much on what others think and what the dominant authorities preach to the point where their own thoughts dont matter. And Nes could be so intensely focused on the perceptions of others that they forget about their own ideas.

Like Voltaire for instance. He was no original thinker, all he did was connect ideas of others and shape them into projects that he'd envision in the external world. He never came up with anything of his own or had an internally founded vision, he just bounced around the visions of others trying to tie them together and almost always his goals were externally focused and not other worldly as that of the Nis. He never had any sound opinions of his own, certainly if you asked him for his personal opinions he'd answer you, but really those ideas wouldn't be original, he just combined many of the things he heard others say and erected a design of his own upon them.
 

heart

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You have to consider the group you are talking to. Fe is useful for making everyone feel included in some sort of social group. Unfortunately for people who are unusual Fe can make them feel even more excluded.

I think a stronger way of putting this is Fe enforces/regulates/creates/glues together group activity and deciding which behaviors will be rewarded with acceptance and which will be subject to disapproval. I also think Te plays a part.

For the best understanding of the negative side of this group behavior I highly recommend The Undiscovered Self by Carl Jung.

A quote from page 54:

...As the dialectical discussion proceeds, a point is reached where an evaluation of these individual impulses becomes necessary. By that time the patient should have acquired enough certainty of judgment to enable him to act on his own insight and decision, and not from the mere wish to copy convention even if he happens to agree with collective opinion.

Unless he stands firmly on his own feet, the so called objective values profit him nothing since they then only serve as a substitute for character and so help to suppress his individuality. Naturally, society has an indisputable right to protect itself against arrant subjectivisms, but insofar as society itself is composed of de-individualized persons.

Let it band together into groups and organizations as much as it likes -- it is just this banding together and the resultant extinction of the individual personality that makes it succumb so readily to a dictator.



A million zeros joined together do not, unfortunately, add up to one. Ultimately everything depends on the quality of the individual, but the fatally shortsighted habit of our age is to think only in terms of large numbers and mass organizations, though one would think that the world has seen more than enough of what a well-disciplined mob can do in the hands of a single madman.



Unfortunately, this realization does not seem to have penetrated very far and our blindness in this respect is extremely dangerous. People go on blithely organizing and believing in the sovereign remedy of mass action, without the least consciousness of the fact that the most powerful organizations can be maintained only by the greatest ruthlessness of their leaders and the cheapest of slogans...
 

Blackwater

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Your second paragraph is cogent, however we can bring the same charge against other extroverted functions, like Te and Ne.

True. All E's are more susceptible than the I-types in this regard but there's a difference, particularly in the case of Ne, N being, in the words of Myers, "a lightning rod to the unconcious" even when extroverted in nature. If we were called upon to arrange the functions by reverse order of ontological certitude it'd be Fe, Te, Se, Ne ... ending in Ni.

And Nes could be so intensely focused on the perceptions of others that they forget about their own ideas.

Rather, think of Ne as a cloud of petrolium: It's highly combustible, but it always needs an outside spark to ignite. The difference between a good and a bad ENxP in this regard is how much of an outside prod the ENxP will need in order to "go off", letting her own ideas take over, but the initial spark always needs to come from outside. Depending on the genius of the ENxP, this spark can consist of anything from reading two books and fusing the essential ideas therein together (weak originality) to the perception of a madeleine cake (strong originality).

I agree that the "philosophy" of Voltaire is an example former. He reminds me of the work I do when I feel the least original and does so constantly. I hear that he's eminent in terms of style though - a pity I don't do French.
 

SolitaryWalker

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True. All E's are more susceptible than the I-types in this regard but there's a difference, particularly in the case of Ne, N being, in the words of Myers, "a lightning rod to the unconcious" even when extroverted in nature. If we were called upon to arrange the functions by reverse order of ontological certitude it'd be Fe, Te, Se, Ne ... ending in Ni.



Rather, think of Ne as a cloud of petrolium: It's highly combustible, but it always needs an outside spark to ignite. The difference between a good and a bad ENxP in this regard is how much of an outside prod the ENxP will need in order to "go off", letting her own ideas take over, but the initial spark always needs to come from outside. Depending on the genius of the ENxP, this spark can consist of anything from reading two books and fusing the essential ideas therein together (weak originality) to the perception of a madeleine cake (strong originality).

I agree that the "philosophy" of Voltaire is an example former. He reminds me of the work I do when I feel the least original and does so constantly. I hear that he's eminent in terms of style though - a pity I don't do French.


Yes, Voltaire was an exquisite stylist.

If we were called upon to arrange the functions by reverse order of ontological certitude it'd be Fe, Te, Se, Ne ... ending in Ni.

Ontological certitude..yes..Ni would be last..devalues the object the most. Although the problem we've confronted here is that of Fe's promoting society over the individual. Fe, indeed is the most collectivist function, though Ti is the most individualistic. It is more intensely internally focused than Ni, and its tough-minded aspect minimizes the potential problems Fi's incurr of going out of their way to please others.

Not sure what you meant by ontological certitude..reverse order..so you're saying that Nis are most keenly aware of their inner ground? I'd argue that Tis are, the minds of Nis often drift, whilst Tis are almost always certain of their inner principles. They slide around less than Fis, again, because they tend to be tough-minded.

That is the order I'd place them in..

Ti-Ne
Fi-Ne
Ni-Te
Ni-Fe
Ne-Ti
Ne-Fi
Te-Ni
Fe-Ni
Ti-Se
Fi-Se
Si-Te
Si-Fe
Te-Si
Fe-Si
 

proteanmix

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True. All E's are more susceptible than the I-types in this regard but there's a difference, particularly in the case of Ne, N being, in the words of Myers, "a lightning rod to the unconcious" even when extroverted in nature. If we were called upon to arrange the functions by reverse order of ontological certitude it'd be Fe, Te, Se, Ne ... ending in Ni.

Actually I've read it as Se, Si, Ne, Ni, Te, Ti, Fe, Fi (is this what you mean by ontological certitude?)

1. Gather concrete facts
2. Compare concrete facts to past information
3. Explore possibilities and options
4. Search within and beyond information for relevant meanings and insights
5. Look at the steps of possible actions that is workable and effective
6. Determine problem solving
7. Check that the decisions and plans take care of the people who are involved
8. Check that the information honors everyone's values
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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I do think many ENTPs and INTPs have a pretty good understanding of Fe. I also think many of us use it quite skillfully. It makes sense to me that the described chameleon trait in INTPs is supported by Fe.

Speaking from personal experience I can understand Fe intellectually, but in practice I find it somewhat mysterious. Sure my Ne is telling me what the cause/effect result of certain social norms are, but at the same time I ask myself, "Why do people do this stuff?" Whenever I use Fe it's really more like my Ne faking Fe. I go through the motions because of the effect I realize that it will have on the other person, but it does not have the same effect on me.
 

Park

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Speaking from personal experience I can understand Fe intellectually, but in practice I find it somewhat mysterious. Sure my Ne is telling me what the cause/effect result of certain social norms are, but at the same time I ask myself, "Why do people do this stuff?" Whenever I use Fe it's really more like my Ne faking Fe. I go through the motions because of the effect I realize that it will have on the other person, but it does not have the same effect on me.

I do the same. Sometimes I use Fe because it's easier to do what's expected than to ignore unwritten social rules and when I use Fe in a insincere manner, it conflicts with my truthseeking Ti.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Fi seems very good at connection with people one on one. Basically, Fi uses a personal investment with others in order to convince them of one's motivation.

Meanwhile, Fe uses a socially agreed-upon "language" or context to convey feelings of commitment and goodwill -- or the opposite, I suppose, if one is trying to be very clear publicly of their disdain for someone.

(Example: Someone will purposefully break etiquette -- the accepted rules -- in public in order to show purposefully disdain for someone else. It could be showing up for a dinner party with obviously inappropriate clothing. Or using a particular comment during a public political debate to "call someone out." Etc. The whole point here is to embarrass or snub. But it's still Fe.)

Because Fi is so personal, it's easier to embrace than Fe, which is more impersonal and detached. Fi also "stays the same" -- you can usually tell when someone is very fond of you or cares about you -- but Fe can change as society changes. What is appropriate in one time period sometimes becomes inappropriate as the years pass. Thus, Fe seems more arbitrary (because it actually is) and impersonal and fickle, in some ways.

These are a few of my thoughts on it...
That sounds reasonable and right, but Fe is supposed to be my second function and the descriptions here don't fit. Fi sound much more familiar in your context. So much so that i have completely restructured my professional life to insure that i can interact with people one on one. That is a huge driving force in my life. I do think i am an INFJ, but i grew up with an INFP. These are some contrasts i notice:

1. Empathy: Fi empathy is very focused, intense and personal. It tends to single out certain individuals and lavish this understanding on them. This selective empathy is constant, never ending. Limited personal resources results in focus on the few. Fe empathy is more diffuse, equally distributed amongst people regardless of their reactions. It could be compared to the distinction between a panic attack (Fi) and generalized anxiety(Fe), only applied to the concept of empathy instead of anxiety. When Fe resources are low, the entire switch flips off and feeling is placed on hold until the inner self is filled up.

2. Projection vs. Internalizing: When encountering a person the Fi sense of their inner world and feelings is so clear and intense, that the only error Fi is apt to make is to project their own innocence and passion onto the external person. Fe inner world is in more flux emotionally and readily absorbs whatever emotions are in the environment. Fe error is to mistake the attributes of others as their own, while Fi is to mistake their own attributes as belonging to others.

3. Emotional convention: Fi will respond to emotional contexts within the extensive framework they have create deep inside themselves. The concept of convention can be quite strong, but is in a profoundly personal context. This internal sense of convention can be broadly developed to include multiple scenarios, but will tend to all be linked to a single inner vision of how people ought to value emotional responses and communication. Fi strives to maintain this inner consistency and peace projecting it outward. Fe is more aware of external conventions and is willing to alter their own sense of expectation to fit the specific scenario. Their value lies in terms of maintaining external peace and consistency, but use a variety of means to achieve this goal. Their inner assumptions about how people will interact emotionally is not as well developed, and so they more readily accept various strategies based on the context.

4. Connecting to others: Fi has the ability to draw people into their rich world of meaning and compassion. They are like a beacon, a lighthouse on the shore. There can be constancy, stability. When no one responds to this beacon, there is longing. Fe searches outwardly to connect to the other person on whatever terms are presented. They have a treasure map and are searching outwardly for the buried treasure. Fe hopes to find meaning and compassion by offering a reason to be let into the world of another person. When this does not occur the isolation aches. Edit: It's possible that Fe tends to be more self critical because it's measure of attaining an ideal is based on the external world which is in flux. It is pretty easy to feel a sense of failure since achieving peace in the external world is much more of a lost cause than that of the internal world, generally speaking. [/edit]

Both are equally sincere. Both can hold the value of wanting the greatest peace, meaning, and benefit for all involved. Perhaps in their ugliest scenarios Fi will fall into blind narcissism, while Fe into hypocrisy and lies? Once again MBTI is not a determinant for morality. Forcing it to be disrupts the path to achieve understanding.

(hello from wyoming folks :hi: )
 

SolitaryWalker

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Wouldn't be much of a surprise if your F resembled an Fi more than Fe. Ni bends it inwards. That is the reason why INTJs often seem like they have Ti and are more analytical than ENTPs.
 

Mycroft

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Bluewing, you are the most striking example I've ever seen of Jung's assertion that "people tend to overvalue their own type".
 

SolitaryWalker

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Nothing that I said had anythign to do with values, just pure reasoning.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Since there is a tendency for people to seek out worst case scenarios to understand for self-protection, i thought perhaps it was worth outlining two worst case scenarios in the interaction of Fe and Fi in an abusive context in which one is innocent and the other guilty.

Fe as perpetrator, Fi as victim
Fi has a deep innate sense of trust in self and believes that others on some level are worthy of a similar trust. Deep down everyone is 'good'. Fi falls in love with a troubled scarred Fe believing that Fe only needs to be embraced into their inner peace to find the same within themself. Fi projects their innocence onto Fe seeing them as a scarred child needing love. Fe maintains a front with Fi to keep the benefit of this false perception, but lives out contradictory roles in which the trust of Fi is disregarded for other goals. Fe is nothing like Fi imagines and takes advantage of this misplaced trust.

Fi as perpetrator, Fe as victim
Fe has made efforts to connect with Fi who is deeply troubled, but much like someone from their past by whom they were influenced. Fe believes that since such a connection has been made that compassion will come from it. Fi projects their own pathology onto Fe, accusing them of everything Fi is actually guilty of. After enough repetition, Fe becomes confused and resolves this conflict by accepting the identify imposed on them. In their mind they must have done something wrong, they must be guilty or this would not be occurring.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I'll leave it to others to decide if they agree.

It doesnt matter who agrees with what, it only matters what is true. To paraphrase what Jung said in some of the quotations in this thread, people think that quantity without quality makes substance. That if you put many zeroes together, they will somehow make a one. It doesnt matter how many people hold a particular view, it does not have merit unless it is true.
 
R

RDF

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..but what about heroes like Shakespeare..Rousseau...Virgil...Kierkegaard.. Tolstoy..all Fi dominant besides the last one..he was a secondary Fi though..they were the ones who have shown us the true splendor of the human 'spirit'...

Welcome to the jungle
It gets worse here everyday
Ya learn ta live like an animal
In the jungle where we play
If you got a hunger for what you see
You'll take it eventually
You can have anything you want
But you better not take it from me...

("Welcome to the Jungle," Guns N' Roses)

:party:
 
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