ESTP vs ENTP - the value system

[TenebrousReflection]

don't all young extp want the same? party, power, sex? the good clothing label, the newest skateboard?

what knowledge is there, in the teen world?

surely an average enneagram seven is not all that interested into school matter.
and computers are boring, unless you are in a scene where you can throw parties around computers, ie parties financed by pirate/hacker activities.

that stuff did not even exist in the early nineties. no hover boards either.

so, what's left?

do entp go for knowledge about other peoples penis size?
'cause he sure tryed to pull down my pants more than once.

I agree with Blackmail on this. I don't know a lot of ENTPs, but the ones I can recall from my youth (which mostly took place in the 80s) would have no concern with fashion, and their idea of a party would be drasticly different than an ESTP. If they cared about a skateboard, it would probably be for what alternative uses they could think of for it not for actual skateboarding. Your friend sounds very much how I would expect a typical young ESTP to be (but I would not rule out an imature ESFP either).

In my mind, the ENTP is the personification of inventiveness and experimentation - the world is their laboratory and everything in it represents untapped potential. Now this is just the perception of an NFP regarding ENTPs, but I think their primary values (those common to nearly all ENTPs) are more along the lines of knowledge, and creativity my perception of ESTPs is that they value things like achievement, new experiences and excitement.

The one example of an ENTP in youth I can think of liked to take mundane objects and see what he could use them for and/or convince other people they were or could be used for.

 

[Lasting_Pain]

Egal was gegenwärtig existiert, egal was gegenwärtig geschieht, es gibt immer nur genau Einen der es beeinflussen kann.

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuX7lHEU7-Y"]The One[/YOUTUBE]

Nein, Stop posting in German

 

[nanook]

here is the efficient way, to get extroverted dominant people to participate in a topic.

oh dear extroverted people, i go down on my knees, to ask you to be so benevolent as to pleaasssee brag about your beautiful value system in your own words. make me believe in the absolute truth, coming straight from your perfect self-image, thank you. because i was unable to figure you out, while observing you for 30 years, and i feel so incomplete for not seeing your perfection.

only, that would create once more the illusion that you are needed AND benevolent. but you are not. it is the every day benevolence of "weak" people like me, that puts you in the position to have easy kings sized demands to others without having to be self-critical at all. you despise this benevolence as "weakness" and you may be right about that, except you contradict yourself, because you demand such weakness compulsively and go completely bonkers if you dont get it, as you have proven in this thread.

here is how values are supposed to work: if you think that something is bad, you will not only refrain from doing it yourself, but you will also discourage others from doing it. now, for the show of it, you pretend that you want me to be strong, yet i am strong in this thread, i simply talk from my past (more than 15 years ago), and you attack me, because i am not down on my knees, right away.

the truth is, that you have been friends with me, when i was weak, because i was weak, but you could not accept any sign of strength besides you, could not bear the idea that you are not needed like a god.

this is me, making you prove your true values, against your wish.

it was not even my plan to do this, when i created the thread. i was certainly a conscious decision to not go down on my knees before asking you something, but i had no idea it would turn out like that.

i was honestly overestimating you, believing your narcissism had gone 15 years ago - you had dis-identified from this early value set that 95% of you have in common, and you could talk about it honestly, admit it, without guilt but simply for the sake of objectivity.

but you are probably just 15 years old right now .... i should have thought about that.

 

[Ardea]

Know thyself!

Personality Page.com

* When they express their underlying principles, however, they may feel awkward and speak abruptly and intensely.

* If this type of reasoning goes uncompletely unchecked by the ENTP, it could result in a character that is perceived by others as unethical or even dishonest. The ENTP, who does not naturally consider the more personal or human element in decision making, should take care to notice the subjective, personal side of situations. This is a potential problem are for ENTPs. Although their logical abilities lend strength and purpose to the ENTP, they may also isolate them from their feelings and from other people.

* If the Feeling part of themself is neglected, the ENTP may not value other people's input enough, or may become overly harsh and aggressive.

This being said, I would imagine that an ENTP who has developed their Si and their Fe could be quite moral.

Aside from this... I would imagine that all ENTPs would be moral for two reasons:
1. Morals CAN BE socially dictated. At times, you need to follow certain operating procedures to be liked. IE We are charming as f*ck.
2. We think, and know how to work 'the system'. Morals make sense, they make things easier. IE Keep your nose clean, don't lie, don't get your hands dirty, etc. It makes sense.

I do get a bit bothered when I read about "immoral ENTPs". We only seem immoral because we can fight on both sides. This means nothing about what we'd actually do. My argument's poor, but this topic saddens me. We're not that shallow.

ENTP Descriptions - ENTP - The Inventors
Okay, so maybe we are. But there's a reason for everything. How else can we make our big schemes come true?

 

[EcK]

so, how is that value of knowledge, that you mention, displayed in entp, who are not yet on a rational stage of developement, or do not have access to rational means, like books or computers? what was the difference between young entp and young estp in the middle ages, i an agrarian culture, on the country?

So... You got a brain at 18een or?
I was reading 'big books' when the other kids were still looking at all the pretty pictures.
And one can think for and by himself, you don't need a computer or to learn all you know from books. People who think that way aren't usually that smart anyway.

 

[nanook]

So... You got a brain at 18een or?
I was reading 'big books' when the other kids were still looking at all the pretty pictures.

perfect input. and what about before that? i could imagine things, i am just asking.

And one can think for and by himself, you don't need a computer or to learn all you know from books.

true. but then the value is maybe better worded as "insight", than "knowledge" which was proposed before. see: knowledge might just be a sensing value, then. for example, a profile of estJ says, they read or learn all they can in early years, then become suddenly very conservative, when grown up.

so its worth, taking a more precise look, at what it is ...

insight is related to observation, but what is valued enough, to become object of obsession of perception?
is is iconoclastic in political or social context, or is it more psychologically oriented? or is it technical?
or is it about how people work, meaning how power structures work, what i meant symbolically by penis size ...

 

[EcK]

Value system: well i'm eating a yoghurt so i'm a bit busy.
But I'm pretty much, when it comes to morals, a kantian, a bit on the selfish side maybe.

I do understand the advantages\cons of more individual or group oriented strategies and I don't really stick to any.
I'd say that in general, in any 'field', my value system is really fluid and relativistic. So i'm not even sure one could call it a value system. I don't really filter data that way, I simply take it in and see a few different possibilities, cast away a few paterns for simplification, time\computation efficiency, tailor it to the social interaction and so on and here we go.

There's one thing, I don't hit people, I use words to fight (but I wouldn't really care if i got punched on occasion, new is always fun).
And I see interactions as going in both ways. If I do something I won't complain if somebody else does the same to me, it's only fair.

 

[entropie]

I learned english from Castle Wolfenstein + Doom 3D. That totally supported my firepower to develop a bombastic vocabulary (or arsenal of weapons)

 

[substitute]

what knowledge is there, in the teen world?

surely an average enneagram seven is not all that interested into school matter.

You're assuming that not being into school means not being into knowledge. Nothing could be more untrue. I skipped school all the way through, but what was I doing as often as not during the time I was meant to be there? - Sitting in my room, reading on subjects not taught at school and at higher levels than were available at school. Or, much of the time, wandering around and travelling and meeting people out of curiosity and drive to understand the world by being in it and interacting with it.

I think your criticisms of extraverts are very deeply mistaken and show much more about you, your prejudices and deeply egocentric worldview, than they do about anyone else. Sorry.

 

[Unique]

I don't get this thread at all

Are you saying all ESTPs are egocentric?

Cut to the point already

 

[Halla74]

here is the efficient way, to get extroverted dominant people to participate in a topic.

oh dear extroverted people, i go down on my knees, to ask you to be so benevolent as to pleaasssee brag about your beautiful value system in your own words. make me believe in the absolute truth, coming straight from your perfect self-image, thank you. because i was unable to figure you out, while observing you for 30 years, and i feel so incomplete for not seeing your perfection.

only, that would create once more the illusion that you are needed AND benevolent. but you are not. it is the every day benevolence of "weak" people like me, that puts you in the position to have easy kings sized demands to others without having to be self-critical at all. you despise this benevolence as "weakness" and you may be right about that, except you contradict yourself, because you demand such weakness compulsively and go completely bonkers if you dont get it, as you have proven in this thread.

here is how values are supposed to work: if you think that something is bad, you will not only refrain from doing it yourself, but you will also discourage others from doing it. now, for the show of it, you pretend that you want me to be strong, yet i am strong in this thread, i simply talk from my past (more than 15 years ago), and you attack me, because i am not down on my knees, right away.

the truth is, that you have been friends with me, when i was weak, because i was weak, but you could not accept any sign of strength besides you, could not bear the idea that you are not needed like a god.

this is me, making you prove your true values, against your wish.

it was not even my plan to do this, when i created the thread. i was certainly a conscious decision to not go down on my knees before asking you something, but i had no idea it would turn out like that.

i was honestly overestimating you, believing your narcissism had gone 15 years ago - you had dis-identified from this early value set that 95% of you have in common, and you could talk about it honestly, admit it, without guilt but simply for the sake of objectivity.

but you are probably just 15 years old right now .... i should have thought about that.

Wow. I have not read anything more ignorant or condescending for quite some time. If you believe in such stereotyping then you are a fool.

 

[Amargith]

I have a couple of questions for EXTPs:

What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side? And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability? And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability? Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage? Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

 

[Halla74]

I have a couple of questions for EXTPs:

Answers on the way!

What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side?

Trust is given for one of two reasons: (1) Someone earns your trust by doing something that proves they are of good character and have your best interest in mind, or (2) You have enough simple experiences with another that over time you understand them to be like you in many ways and extend them your trust.

And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability?

No. It's an honor to have someone extend their trust to me. It is vulnerability, but it is not a weakness. They are making themselves vulnerable because they trust I will not hold that over them. I value my friendships highly, and there is no friendship without trust.

And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability?

I am supportive of it in the scope and context of my friendship with that person. I am of good intent, I wish no one harm, and actually quite nice and helpful. If someone places an inappropriate amount of trust in me (e.g. tells me of deeply disturbing things requiring professional guidance) then I make all efforts to guide them to an appropriate support network and consider my work done. I am not a psychiatrist, and I cannot assume the problems of the world on my own shoulders.

Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage?

No, I answered as such above. That is manipulative and I cannot tolerate such behavior.

Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

Answered above.

 

[thisGuy]

:
What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side?

it happens when it happens...OR if im TRYING to trust someone, ill just tell'em whatever then big secret is and hope for the best. i trust someone before i distrust them

vulnerable side? usually never. there are times when im supposed to be the pillar of confidence and all that stuff...if i show a vulnerable side, how am i supposed to able to support that other person?
that brings up another question....whats 'vulnerable' to me? most people close to me think they have seen something vulnerable but, other than my parents, no one has truly seen anything 'vulnerable' (at this point im gonna define vulnerable as something that makes me feel insecure to the point that i dont know who i am anymore)

And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability? And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability? Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage? Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

it depends on the situation but more often than not, this is NOT a vulnerability. i respect that person's decisions and feelings. everyone to their own. i NEVER use such information for a leverage. its much more rewarding and fun to get people to do your bidding while nurturing their own self-respect and the preserving respect they have for me.

No, im not usually 'endeared' by it either. i wont protect the person, but i will stand up for them after the they have taken the first few punches

 

[Synarch]

ENTP style is also to be very blunt and honest during the 10% of communication that is not entertaining creative Ne bullshit

It seems to me that ENTP's are fairly honest unless it's something they don't want to discuss, in which case they evade and omit. They do like to appear "blunt and honest", though, which can make them seem disingenuous.

I do get a bit bothered when I read about "immoral ENTPs". We only seem immoral because we can fight on both sides. This means nothing about what we'd actually do. My argument's poor, but this topic saddens me. We're not that shallow.

I think ENTP's are damned. Highly moral and yet highly influenced and deeply affected by the world around them, so that they sometimes compromise what they believe in.

I have a couple of questions for EXTPs:

What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side? And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability? And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability? Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage? Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

It is very very very hard for me to be vulnerable. It really takes a special person to let go with. I do not perceive their trust as a weakness or vulnerability unless I feel like they are trying to serve some ulterior personal motive of their own rather than really seeing me and loving me. If I feel like they see me, understand me, and accept me, and if I can respect them, it is powerfully endearing to me. I become their slave.

 

[Nocapszy]

Why would the packaging of input information have anything to do with their values?

 

[Mitzy]

I have a couple of questions for EXTPs:

What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side?
And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability?
And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability?
Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage?
Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

if someone whos nice and has good intentions trusts me..i do see it as vulnerability. i think them themselves are weak already..them trusting me would just prove my point further. if theyre a "stronger" type of person and they trust me, i would laugh and be condescending towards them.
i do see it as a mistake on their part and i probably would take advantage of their trust.
and the last question...no.

however, i think it all related to the first question. if i havent showed my vulnerable side to them, then theyre not really registered on my map therefore, i dont care about them. if i have, all answers change. it doesnt take much for me to show it. just some basic things like
me actually not being too lazy to show it and actually feel like developing a connection or relationship with someone
most of it has to do with time
it takes a lot of time for me to fully open up with someone
and even if i do, its a very uncomfortable position to be in

 

[mlittrell]

I don't get this thread at all

Are you saying all ESTPs are egocentric?

Cut to the point already

seconded, the only thing this thread has done has pissed me off.

 

[Halla74]

If I feel like they see me, understand me, and accept me, and if I can respect them, it is powerfully endearing to me. I become their slave.

Nicely put. It's rare for all 4 criteria to be met in a friendship.

To be seen is easy, to be understood a bit more difficult, and to be accepted as you are, that is an act of love IMHO. To have all three of these in a friendship is truly nice.

At this point in my life respect is a big deal. I respect certain things about certain people, but there are very, very few people that I can honestly say that I respect unequivocably. Actions speak louder than words, earn trust, build respect, it takes time.

 

[Unique]

I have a couple of questions for EXTPs:

What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side? And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability? And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability? Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage? Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

oh yeah I relate to the bolded