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Am I a "J" or a "P"?

Lateralus

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May 18, 2007
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6,262
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ENTJ
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3w4
I have traits for both, but ever since I found out about MBTI, I considered myself a pretty strong P. Lately, I've started to question this, thinking that I might just be a lazy J. I'm going to make a couple lists.

J traits:
-I've always been decisive.
-I've never shyed away from commitment in romantic relationships.
-I perform well in structured systems.
-I have strong convictions which I don't compromise.
-When I get excited about something, I do start to plan things out.
-I don't have a problem telling people what I think.
-I don't care if I offend people I don't care about.

P traits:
-I hate structure, even though I perform well in it. I find it suffocating and do my best to avoid it.
-I procrastinate quite a bit.
-With big decisions, I will collect enormous amounts of information before I make the decision. I'm talking about things like buying a car, big screen TV, etc.
-I don't like details. I only have a rough idea of how much money is in my bank account. I don't even care to know exactly how much I have. Close is good enough for me.
-I avoid commitment on little things. For example, someone will ask me if I want to go out for dinner later. I'll never say "yes". At best, they'll get a "maybe".
-When my excitement about something wanes, I become apathetic toward it.

I guess I'm probably borderline. I'm just looking for some opinions and insight, here.
 

ptgatsby

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,476
MBTI Type
ISTP
P. (Means not applicable, means dominant)


J traits:
-I've always been decisive.
-I've never shyed away from commitment in romantic relationships.
-I perform well in structured systems.
-I have strong convictions which I don't compromise.
-When I get excited about something, I do start to plan things out.
-I don't have a problem telling people what I think.
-I don't care if I offend people I don't care about.


P traits:
-I hate structure, even though I perform well in it. I find it suffocating and do my best to avoid it.
-I procrastinate quite a bit. (if universal)
-With big decisions, I will collect enormous amounts of information before I make the decision. I'm talking about things like buying a car, big screen TV, etc.
-I don't like details. I only have a rough idea of how much money is in my bank account. I don't even care to know exactly how much I have. Close is good enough for me. (if there is no seperation on scope of the project, either through time of interest. If there is, then it's relevent where the transition happens)
-I avoid commitment on little things. For example, someone will ask me if I want to go out for dinner later. I'll never say "yes". At best, they'll get a "maybe".
-When my excitement about something wanes, I become apathetic toward it.
 

Natrushka

Pareo cattus
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
Messages
1,213
MBTI Type
INTJ
-I avoid commitment on little things. For example, someone will ask me if I want to go out for dinner later. I'll never say "yes". At best, they'll get a "maybe".

I do this, too. I thought it was an IN thing.
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
I am a ridiculous procrastinator. So is another INTJ I know from another board. Like, serious problems. Sometimes I can conquer it, but my will waxes and wanes.
 

Langrenus

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Apr 23, 2007
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Personally I feel that 'procrastinates' (ARGH, I always spell that word wrong) is a bit misleading; the J/P distinction becomes another version of the ludicrously simplified "I hate people so I'm an I" approach to typing.

Taken together pt's list is great; don't just isolate individual traits and then use them to be an exception to the rule (I procrastinate - yes, got it right first time! - to the nth degree, but I'm pretty sure I'm still a J; just like I enjoy the company of others, within reason, and feel very sure I'm an I)
 

Lateralus

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Thanks for the replies. Are there any other potentially distinguishing traits that I failed to mention?
 

ptgatsby

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ISTP
Thanks for the replies. Are there any other potentially distinguishing traits that I failed to mention?

I'd be interested in knowing how procedural you are - that is to say, do you follow set procedures, do you not follow them, do you reject them even if they work, how do you deal with them when they don't, do you think you can do better...

That'd unify a lot of your traits.
 

Natrushka

Pareo cattus
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1,213
MBTI Type
INTJ
... do you have an idea what you're going to be doing next weekend? My Jness is blinding and I can tell you even though I have no concrete plans for next weekend right now; I'll be at home, and x will be done at some point on Friday, y will be taken care of by Saturday and z(ed) will have been taken care of by lunch on Sunday.
 

The Ü™

Permabanned
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May 26, 2007
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11,910
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INTJ
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5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I never liked the way the P/J dichotomy was generally described -- it seemed to always contradict with the other functions. It becomes engraved in our minds that the P procrastinates and the J works hard. In actuality, both will work hard on the things they're interested in and slack off on the things they aren't interested in.

I think, in general, society's definition of hard-working is solely attributed to SJs, because they have dogmatic focus on doing in the concrete world, but it still relates only to their passions. And SJs generally have the kind of passions that society values.

In the case of NJs, society may perceive them as lazy, simply because their focus is generally more on the abstract, but as Js, their focus is still obsessive.

The SP may seem lazy to the SJ, but as Sensors, they are also perceived as more or less active, physically, since their interests are also in the concrete world. The difference is that their focus on the concrete world is not consistent, so they give the impression of being flighty.

The NP is probably perceived as the laziest of all types, because they are both abstract and flighty. They're all about new ideas, but as Ps, they are also flaky and wishy-washy about their ideas.

The J is only perceived as hard-working insofar as being single-minded. But a lot more has to do with S and N than anything.

But all types will procrastinate when it comes time to engage their weaker functions.

I don't think the P is a procrastinator per se, but they are more comfortable with adapting to last-minute plans, which is something the J gets upset about.

Also note that making plans is extremely NJ. NJs can make very thorough plans on how they'll approach something but they'll also end up doing, which is more Sensory, at the last minute. The NJ's N side might be more comfortable about fantasizing about the plan rather than actually doing it -- unless they are dominated by or have a developed Extraverted function, which then makes the NJ become more assertive.

The SJ is a good planner, but their plans are not normally new plans -- they were more created by prescribed J habits. For example, SJs are more inclined to pay attention to scheduling, because schedules are both concrete and structural data.

The NJ would benefit from schedules, but their abstract nature leads them not to make them in the first place, because while they like the comfort of structure and habit and dislike surprises that would upset them, the N is less interested in practical necessities of scheduling, and so would less likely go through with it.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
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Jul 1, 2007
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4w5
I've developed a rather subjective way of looking at the J/P dichotomy. The way I see J is as being less flexible about the way you deal with things. It doesn't really matter if you're organized, as much as it's about your need to have a certain structure in the way you behave. For instance, my home is usually a mess unless there's a possibility I might have people over, but I keep my definitions, rules, and ideas in good order. Also, I'm quite particular about my spelling and punctuation. That's another common J trait.

Lastly, I'd like to introduce you to an idea that a friend of mine had. He believed that J's think symbolically, which would mean through words/numbers/icons. P's on the other hand, supposedly think graphically/visually, which would explain to me why their thoughts seem to be less fixed, like a movie that changes scenes from one moment to the next, and mine are arranged more like a book. I can't verify this idea, but it seems at least plausible, since interpreting reality through words, which point to things in a more specific way than pictures, would lead to slightly more predictable and rigid behaviors.
 

Lateralus

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I'd be interested in knowing how procedural you are - that is to say, do you follow set procedures, do you not follow them, do you reject them even if they work, how do you deal with them when they don't, do you think you can do better...

That'd unify a lot of your traits.
I'm procedural in that I'll follow my own procedures (keeping my workout schedule, etc), but anything imposed on my, I resist. At work, I rarely do things the way I'm "supposed" to.

Another trait that I have that I thought was J...

My house is clean. I don't like clutter.
 

proteanmix

Plumage and Moult
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Apr 23, 2007
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If you're trying to figure out if you're ENFP or ENFJ, I'd go with figuring out if you're Fe dominant or Ne dominant.

Here's some information that may help:

ENFJ
Theme is mentoring, leading people to achieve their potential and become more of who they are. Talents lie in empathizing with profound personal insight and influencing others to learn, grow, and develop. Lead using their exceptional communication skills, enthusiasm, and warmth to gain cooperation toward meeting the ideals they hold for the individual or organization. Catalysts who draw out the best in others. Thrive on empathetic connections. Frequently called on to help others with personal problems.

ENFP
Theme is inspiration, both of themselves and others. Talents lie in grasping profound significance, revealing truths, and motivating others. Very perceptive of others' hidden motives and purposes. Interested in everything about individuals and their stories as long as they're genuine. Contagious enthusiasm for "causes" that further the good and develop latent potential and the same zeal for disclosing dishonesty and inauthenticity. Frequently moved to enthusiastically communicate their "message."

When Fe and Ne look alike:

Ne and Fe often focus on people and their interactions. With Ne, it is the meanings and inferences that come to mind relative to people and their interactions. With Fe, it is the actions that keep people connected or disconnected that matter.

Here are some definitions of Fe and Ne from the Lenore Thomson Wiki.

Which one sounds like something you're more comfortable using? How well do you think you use Ni, Se, and Ti? A good way that I've found to establish my EFJness is that I interact with a lot of IFPs. Maybe you should find some IFJ and IFPs and see what your interactions look like with them. With IFPs I see us coming from the opposite sides of the same coin, with IFJs it's more similarity between our thinking and actions.

When I took the official MBTI I tested ENFP (don't know HOW that happened) and other ENFJs here tested ENFP also. I'm not too familiar with your posts, but sometimes you see a little preachy :))) as an EFJ would.
 

Lateralus

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It's not so much that I'm trying to figure out if I'm an ENFP or ENFJ. The ENFJ descriptions don't fit me nearly as well as ENFP (actually ENTJ fits me better than ENFJ or ENTP). I'm mostly curious about this J/P divide and where I fit.
 

ptgatsby

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It's not so much that I'm trying to figure out if I'm an ENFP or ENFJ. The ENFJ descriptions don't fit me nearly as well as ENFP (actually ENTJ fits me better than ENFJ or ENTP). I'm mostly curious about this J/P divide and where I fit.

You show moderate expression of P traits, but your internal behaviour seems very P. I would rank you on a behavioural scale of about 55-65% P (Expressed) and 65-80% internalised based on your description. You also don't seem to have a large spread of sub-traits, so I believe that it is the lower expression that makes you question what your internalised score is. That is to say that you have some dissonance going on, most likely from trained behaviour.

(% above me "more than x population") (None of the above has anything to do with MBTI theory either.)
 

ptgatsby

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I was raised in a very SJ family.

That would the most likely source of "trained behavioural", as would any event that you thought you could of achieved if you had been more "disciplined", etc. in your youth. (Those two often go together, since upon failure, parents tend to think that their way would of worked, and J's are normally right about that.)
 

Dark Razor

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Lateralus, do you identify with the description of Fi or with that of Fe? Because if you are an ENFP then your secondary function is Fi, and if you are an ENFJ than you have Fe as your primary.

For example I am sure that I run on Fi and not Fe, and so I know that I am an NTJ.
 

Lateralus

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Lateralus, do you identify with the description of Fi or with that of Fe? Because if you are an ENFP then your secondary function is Fi, and if you are an ENFJ than you have Fe as your primary.

For example I am sure that I run on Fi and not Fe, and so I know that I am an NTJ.
Definitely Fi, but I don't buy into all the function order stuff with MBTI. When I look at function order lists, it looks to me like they were trying to come up with a neat looking pattern. I don't think function order is as well defined as it's made out to be.
 

proteanmix

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It's not so much that I'm trying to figure out if I'm an ENFP or ENFJ. The ENFJ descriptions don't fit me nearly as well as ENFP (actually ENTJ fits me better than ENFJ or ENTP). I'm mostly curious about this J/P divide and where I fit.

So are you trying to figure out if you're a ENTJ or ENFP? The J/P would change your typing. If you're confident about being an ENF then that's the difference between ENFJ and ENFP.
 
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