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S and N in real life

Poki

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Of course I asked the wrong question (if you go by the book).
This is why I call this experimenting.

But your also pushing it in a direction, so its more like you are looking for something or steering it. Which can confuse people, especially if they dont see this. Perception is about noticing the world, whether you are N or S you still must use your senses to percieve something. People use sensors to throw up red flags saying something is not right, it detects changes that dont jive with what is expected. I am a sensor and my Se is throwing off alarms everywhere saying something is fishy with this thread and I gotta get to the bottom of it.

This is Se in action. You cant see it, but my response is the action of it.
 

alcea rosea

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One observation about the misunderstandings in communication between S and N in the real life.

S mean what they say and say it aloud.
N try to see what's behind what S said.
S doesn't mean anything else that is said. Literally.
N still thinks there is something behind it all, something that is not said.

N says something but actually the information is to be intrepreted.
S hears what is said (the words) and does not read between the lines.
S responds to what is actually said aloud.
N is confused because s/he was expecting S to understand the hidden message.

In both cases S - N communcaton is not successfull.
I have personally experienced this. ;)
 
Last edited:

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
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One observation about the misunderstandings in communication between S and N in the real life.

S mean what they say and say it aloud.
N try to see what's behind what S said.
S doesn't mean anything else that is said. Literally.
N still thinks there is something behind it all, something that is not said.

N says something but actually the information is to be intrepreted.
S hears what is said (the words) and does not read between the lines.
S responses to what is actually said aloud.
N is confused because s/he was expecting S to understand the hidden message.

In both cases S - N communcaton is not successfull.
I have personally experienced this. ;)

I agree with this.
S conversation style is often too concrete and to the point to grasp what is actually said . The only thing that saves me here is my strong Te. What means that I can swich to their style of communication if it is needed.
 

alcea rosea

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I agree with this.
S conversation style is often too concrete and to the point to grasp what is actually said . The only thing that saves me here is my strong Te. What means that I can swich to their style of communication if it is needed.

Te can really do that. I have learned to use Te in my written communications and I'm not that good in interpreting hidden meanings from written text. It's harder I think, maybe that's harder only for extroverted people? I don' know.

But when speaking, I'm very poor in Te. And thus, the misunderstandings between my spoken communicaiton style and S communication style will occur.
 

Chloe

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I am wondering how often does this happen to other Ns.

The scenario/task is that you have to walk through a city from point A to B and you will need about 20 minutes for that.
But as you are walking you maintain only a small sensory imput which only tells you that you are walking on a sidewalk and you notice a street lights. But you don't notice any details like details on buildings ,trees and if you another person is coming you only register that a person is coming your way and that you should do something about it.
The gender , clothing and colors are not registered in most cases.

Which means that you in a way "fall a sleep" while you are walking throught out the streets to get to the point B. So when you get there you wake up and you can't recall most of your "trip". Which is because your brain was busy playing with concepts and ideas. Or you can simply wake up on the half of the way and you say to yourself "Cool, I am already here." .

I am not talking about cases when you are listening to music along the way.


i have similar expiriences and thats -i dont notice anything, and i cant think. i feel awful when i need to walk. and i feel a bit dead.. un-alive for sure.
 

Virtual ghost

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Te can really do that. I have learned to use Te in my written communications and I'm not that good in interpreting hidden meanings from written text. It's harder I think, maybe that's harder only for extroverted people? I don' know.

But when speaking, I'm very poor in Te. And thus, the misunderstandings between my spoken communicaiton style and S communication style will occur.

Well I have misunderstandings with sensors all the time. But because of very well developed Te I can channel my thoughts and ideas so that a sensor can pick what I am saying without too much problems.
But if we are talking about feelings and very abstract things then misunderstandings are inevitable.
 

substitute

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N is confused because s/he was expecting S to understand the hidden message.

Yes... well I don't purposely make hidden messages, to me what I say and what's meant by it's as plain as the nose on your face - to not assume the other person would get it would feel, to me, like patronizing them, like I was assuming they were stupid.

Which means that you in a way "fall a sleep" while you are walking throught out the streets to get to the point B. So when you get there you wake up and you can't recall most of your "trip". Which is because your brain was busy playing with concepts and ideas. Or you can simply wake up on the half of the way and you say to yourself "Cool, I am already here." .

I am not talking about cases when you are listening to music along the way.

Totally, all the time. ALL the time. My senses are barely switched on almost all the time. Hence all the Sensotard moments...

Curiously though (perhaps), is that I never do listen to music when I'm out, except sometimes in the car. Why? Because I want to stay plugged into the world around me, and don't want to block it out. If someone gives me headphones even for a minute, I find it REALLY irritating and have to pull them out, it's like I've just been disabled or something. If asked what it is I'm actually noticing then, in that case, since it's rarely anything Sensory, I'm afraid I couldn't answer you in words, except to say "mostly intangible stuff"!
 

alcea rosea

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Yes... well I don't purposely make hidden messages,

I don't either. I don't like to mislead anybody and if somebody doesn't understand my meanings, I dont' certainly think they are stupid, I just think that my communicaiton sucks. As it many times does.

Me not doing it on purpose but doing it as it's natural for me might even make it a bigger problem. That's because it's hard for me not to do it.
 

Virtual ghost

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Yes... well I don't purposely make hidden messages, to me what I say and what's meant by it's as plain as the nose on your face - to not assume the other person would get it would feel, to me, like patronizing them, like I was assuming they were stupid.



Totally, all the time. ALL the time. My senses are barely switched on almost all the time. Hence all the Sensotard moments...

Curiously though (perhaps), is that I never do listen to music when I'm out, except sometimes in the car. Why? Because I want to stay plugged into the world around me, and don't want to block it out. If someone gives me headphones even for a minute, I find it REALLY irritating and have to pull them out, it's like I've just been disabled or something. If asked what it is I'm actually noticing then, in that case, since it's rarely anything Sensory, I'm afraid I couldn't answer you in words, except to say "mostly intangible stuff"!

1. Well that is why I asked. Since I wanted to get a reply from a Ne user.


2. The main reason why I like to take walks (alone) is exactly because then I can be alone with myself and I know that I will not be interrupted unless I run into someone. (what is quite unlikely)
Plus stuff like sidewalks and streetlights keep my senses distracted so nothing can interrupt my inner process. Plus it is good from health.

There is a number of people that are wondering quite a bit why I am walking around for at least 1 hour every day without any real/obvious reason.
 

Jeffster

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One observation about the misunderstandings in communication between S and N in the real life.

S mean what they say and say it aloud.
N try to see what's behind what S said.
S doesn't mean anything else that is said. Literally.
N still thinks there is something behind it all, something that is not said.

N says something but actually the information is to be intrepreted.
S hears what is said (the words) and does not read between the lines.
S responds to what is actually said aloud.
N is confused because s/he was expecting S to understand the hidden message.

In both cases S - N communcaton is not successfull.
I have personally experienced this. ;)


Yes, I have experienced this quite a bit now. Since I have become aware of this divide, I have tried to be more understanding and diffuse conflict that I see arising because of it, and I think sometimes I have been successful, but it isn't always easy, and sometimes it seems I am at a loss for how to respond when the "N" person is so frustrated with me for not understanding their meaning and focusing on their words. The truth is I don't know what else to do. What you present to me is all I have to go on. I am not a mind-reader. And I also think sometimes when Ns try to read minds, they are not as accurate as they think they are.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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I think the OP said something about how S and N present themselves in a work environment. I have worked in service industry for eight years now as a bartender/server/cook...you name it.

Something I've noticed:

I'm usually the one who can see a bar fight about to happen. I've often broken up many before they become a problem or before any of my co-workers notice a problem building. I'm usually the first to react or notice someone not "acting" right. I can sort of "sense" something in the "air" isn't right. I'm observant but not necessarily detail oriented. I know where people are located and I see how things might occur and I'm ready for that. I like that feeling. However, If you asked me what these people in the bar are wearing etc. Unless someone is the object of my attention, I probably wouldn't notice! I'd have to call back my memory to get that information. It's not at the forefront.

My fellow ESFP bartender (one of my best friends) is much better at these concrete details than I am. Although, she misses the big picture a lot of times. (too busy bouncing around - literally! :D). We work exceptionally well together. Yin and Yang, I suppose.
 

Poki

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I agree with this.
S conversation style is often too concrete and to the point to grasp what is actually said . The only thing that saves me here is my strong Te. What means that I can swich to their style of communication if it is needed.

Its funny that this style of S talking has taken the path of us being concrete and to the point. I can tell you from experience that with more dominant Te users there is a point to there speaking style and it is to purposely hide there intention. Apparently it works like a charm. It takes you down a path away from what they want to mislead you from there intention. You see there is no reading between the lines, you must back up and figure out what is in it for them. I have seen this many times from Js that have more dominant Te. They lead you down a path to convince you of something when it is really a path to satisfy Fi. Te is used to logically convince you that it is in your best interest so you are convinced that the path they chose is the one you want. Its kinda manipulation, but we all manipulate in some form or fashion. If Te really knows the other person it is a way for both parties to be happy. If there Fi gets selfish you start off like man they really are thinking of me only to realize down the line, wait this is for them. Like I said if they really do care and like you, the outcome of Te is in the best interest of both parties.

And I have experience mostly with ISTJ so no this has nothing to do with the OP and him being a J with a more dominant Te, thats a coincidence:D
 

Poki

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I see a problem, and the solution just clicks in my mind. It's as though I've mentally threaded a needle through a bunch of different disconnected resources, and all that's left is to physically thread that needle (i.e. implement that solution). I kind of feel like Macgyver when it happens :)

I see a solution and the problem just clicks in my mind or I see a problem and the solution just clicks in my mind. If I am around people with solutions I seem negative, but around people with problems I appear positive. To explain this I have to have an understanding of how everything works and how it all works together, this lets me see both solutions and problems and come up with some fuzzy logic of what route to take. This makes me a jack of all trades. This always includes the Fi of the person I am doing this for and what solution they feel the most comfortable with. Sometimes I may take over what they feel uncomfortable with so they feel more comfortable with a certain solution.
 

onemoretime

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Ne - constantly subconsciously scanning your surroundings, looking for things to put together in the context of Fi/Ti
Se - constantly consciously scanning your surroundings, looking for clues to deduce actions through the filter of Fi/Ti

These do not have so much of the "sensory focus" issues that you speak of

Si - constantly consciously taking information and judging it against inductive precepts in order to maintain consistency. More inclined to do this toward your Te/Fe preference

Also doesn't have the sensory focus issue, as it's a conscious process

Ni - constantly subconsciously noticing information and inductively creating an Fe/Te proposition based on relevant information

The sensory focus issue comes less from it being an N function as much as it is an inductive function - that is, information that is irrelevant to the proposition that the brain is trying to create will be discarded. Ne has less of a problem with this because it's more of a deductive process - it constantly seeks more information to come to valid conclusions about, and thus will be more attuned to one's surroundings, though not in as concrete a manner as the S functions.
 

Poki

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Ne - constantly subconsciously scanning your surroundings, looking for things to put together in the context of Fi/Ti
Se - constantly consciously scanning your surroundings, looking for clues to deduce actions through the filter of Fi/Ti

These do not have so much of the "sensory focus" issues that you speak of

Si - constantly consciously taking information and judging it against inductive precepts in order to maintain consistency. More inclined to do this toward your Te/Fe preference

Also doesn't have the sensory focus issue, as it's a conscious process

Ni - constantly subconsciously noticing information and inductively creating an Fe/Te proposition based on relevant information

The sensory focus issue comes less from it being an N function as much as it is an inductive function - that is, information that is irrelevant to the proposition that the brain is trying to create will be discarded. Ne has less of a problem with this because it's more of a deductive process - it constantly seeks more information to come to valid conclusions about, and thus will be more attuned to one's surroundings, though not in as concrete a manner as the S functions.

I agree and it goes against the authors statement of not noticing your surroundings. This is what trips me up about statements of N not being about your senses. Ni may not be about your senses, but Ne is and it seems like the OP keeps pushing that N is not about what your senses take in. It can really confuse people because even though Ne may relate things it has to take in information from its senses. Both Se and Ne has to scan its environment. What the op is refering to is Ni which has nothing to do with the external environment and is why he may miss obvious concrete things. Since he has it linked to high up the chain as an N thing as opposed to Ni it is misleading. Se actually discards alot of information because we dont have the time to process it all similiar to how Ne discards because of the same reasons. I forget alot of detail if I dont have time to process it.
 
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