ENFX Hypocrisy

[Economica]

I appreciated the content of the posts as well, but just had to note this observation...

Just for the record, the following:

Perhaps I should apologize; I originally opened this thread offering observations that I hoped would be challenged or to have the perspective therein contradicted or expanded. Instead, what seems to have happened is that people mistook the lack of OP-empathy as another prelude to T/F trench warfare. Too bad, really; I personally prefer the clinical approach

was added after posts #37-39 were posted.

Blackwater, you need to write "Edit: blablabla" when you do so.

 

[RDF]

There's no need to be heated about this...

Um, okay. Let me try to clarify. I was in a hurry when I wrote that last post, headed out the door for work.

In post No. 36 you say, "I personally prefer the clinical approach". Your approach in the OP, however, seemed decidedly un-clinical.

For example, in your OP you:

A) used rather strong language (didn't qualify your assertions) as though to make the point that hypocrisy is a central feature of those personality types.

B) You and Economica also supplied personal anecdotes about how those types had screwed you over, making the start of the thread seem whiny and vindictive on your part.

C) It seems to me that you didn't establish any context for your criticism of those personality types until late in the thread; thus the criticisms sounded like an airing of personal pet peeves. It's only in the last ten or so posts of the thread that you've put your criticisms in the context of weaknesses of personality types in general ("All types have their own pathology").

D) The OP specifically attempted to take a rather petty weakness (smoothness, glibness, and appearance of lack of sincerity) and spin it into a somewhat harsher deficiency (hypocrisy).

Now, having said all that, let me qualify my own criticisms of your posts by admitting the possibility that part of the problem may be on my side. For example, in the OP you did put your message in the context of another thread (the reference to the INTJ thread), and I didn't bother to read the other thread in its entirety. And my own accusation of "vindictiveness" is inevitably a judgment call on my side.

Nonetheless, in such threads as yours I would prefer to see the standard qualifiers, disclaimers, and context, just to make things clear and reassure me that you're not airing a lot of personal grievances about a couple personality types you particularly dislike.

There are books and web sites on personality type that talk about the weaknesses of the various personality types, and they use a genuinely clinical approach. They use qualifiers to explain that the weaknesses of a given type aren't fatal flaws but rather immature manifestations of that personality type; they keep the descriptions impersonal; and they establish appropriate context by pointing out that all personality types have associated strengths and weaknesses, and that the weaknesses of one personality type are no more blameworthy than the weaknesses of other types.

Taking the example of ENFJs specifically: The book type "Type Talk" is clear about the weaknesses of ENFJs and how they can appear to other personality types:

...all ENFJs...are often criticized as insincere or superficial because of their smooth and glib way with words.

But the book "Type Talk" doesn't try to spin that weakness into "hypocrisy." In fact, the book does quite the opposite:

ENFJs may respond to such criticism with incredulity, often followed by depression and self-doubt, because their sincerity and concern are their driving force and motivation.

Similarly, the web site PersonalityPage.com also justifies the ENFJs weaknesses by pointing out how they spring from the ENFJs strengths and good intentions, rather than merely dismissing them as "hypocrisy."

ENFJ Personal Growth

For my own part, in my earlier posts in this thread I too tried to show that I see ENFJ weaknesses as immaturity at worst, and ultimately as outgrowths of their positive intentions and strengths (their organizational skills).

Hell, as an INFP I tend to admire ENFJs. We're both dominant Feelers, so I'm interested in what ENFJs do with their F. ENFJs use their F as a tool to organize their environment and hence are very vocal with their F; but because of their J, they also put limits on how much they are committed by their F. Hence, they can use expressions of emotion but still set limits on how much nurturing and support they are required to give as a result of their emotional commitments. I think that's pretty neat. As an INFP, I frequently get led by the nose by my feelings to my own detriment. Without any J boundaries to help me set limits, I have a tendency to over-commit emotionally to the point of ruining my own life. I sometimes don't know how much I'm committed to a course of action by my expressions of emotions. So I can learn something from the ENFJs: their ability to set limits; their natural sense of a given emotion and how much commitment it may entail.

I can make the same argument about ENFPs. That is, what they do may seem strange; but it springs from strength and good intention as much as weakness, and it may even serve as a positive example for other types. IOW, I think it's naive at best and vindictive at worst to attribute the worst possible motives ("hypocrisy") to ENFPs.

In sum, I'm all in favor of some genuinely thoughtful discussion about the negatives of the various personality types. I think it's fair game if done properly, and I think everyone could learn from it. But I would prefer that it be done in the context of the standard qualifiers, disclaimers, and context, (and without trying to spin petty weaknesses into harsher deficiencies). That would help make things clearer and reassure everyone that we're not airing a lot of personal grievances about personality types that we particularly dislike.

Oh well, I'm done with this thread. I've given it more time than it deserves. By the way, I'm not trying to bully you and Economica into changing your point of view. Rather, I'm responding to Economica's pleas for clarification (for example, post 27) and trying to show why I'm taking a rather unyielding position on this issue. I want to show that IMO there are some rather important principles at stake; hopefully I'm not just being a stick-in-the-mud.

FL

 

[Economica]

FineLine, thanks for jumping back in to clarify despite obviously not enjoying doing so. I appreciate it and I really would like to clear this up on my own behalf if possible. I'm tired though, so the following comments will be disjunct:

- I agree that opening with qualifiers, contextual disclaimers and statements of goodnatured intent is generally productive when bringing up a problem area for another type. That's what I would have done in a thread like this one. (Note that the INXJ thread I started is aimed primarily at my own type and that I explicitly acknowledge that I myself suffer from the problem; also, I will argue that the nature of the problem calls for heavy artillery in order to penetrate the formidable INTJ defense.)

- Once that is said and done, I don't understand why one shouldn't use concrete examples from one's own life to illustrate the problem area that one has identified and wishes to discuss.

- I'm disappointed that you seem to be ignoring or silently discounting my statements of goodnatured intent ("I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective", "I know Blackwater likes ENFXs very much, as do I", "It is not our intention to point fingers (...), merely to explore this problem area in order to understand and perhaps contribute to the personal development of ENFXs we are close to" etc.). Without a response to those assurances, I don't know what more to do in order to alleviate the conflict.

I'm very tired now, but I hope I have managed to communicate my good will.

Goodnight.

 

[RDF]

FineLine, thanks for jumping back in to clarify despite obviously not enjoying doing so....

Okay, I'll respond. It's probably selfish of me to launch another big broadside at you and Blackwater and then tell you I'm done with the thread. Typical self-involved INFP behavior.

- Once that is said and done, I don't understand why one shouldn't use concrete examples from one's own life to illustrate the problem area that one has identified and wishes to discuss.

You can. But put those examples in context. Tell both sides of the story. Did you even ask the other person why they did the thing that they did? What was their response? What was their justification for their actions?

I wasn't much impressed by the examples of ENFJ/ENFP perfidy that you and Blackwater presented. They were mostly pretty tame stuff. Based on the very short descriptions you presented, it seemed to me that most of those examples could have been committed by many different types of Ps out of sheer laziness, or explained away by unforeseen circumstances requiring a change of course on the part of the ENFJ/ENFP.

Also, you should probably put the stories in the context of MBTI. Show how their motivation matched some facet of their personality type. As ptgatsby pointed out, you are lumping two very different personality types together (ENFJs are Fe-Dominant Judgers and ENFPs are Ne-Dominant Perceivers), making it hard to parse which problems were related to which type or even to the concept of personality type at all.

Also, was the ENFX stressed? If so, that would affect his actions or words. Show how that fits into that person's profile.

In short, the anecdotes were pretty nearly useless to an outside observer. Don't misunderstand me; I know from experience how frustrating ENFPs and ENFJs can be in certain circumstances. (All types can be frustrating to me at times, including other INFPs. )But a second-hand anecdote about being disappointed because someone didn't keep a promise is largely useless from an MBTI point of view. It says more about you (it's interesting to gauge the level of your disappointment over these incidents) than about them. We need to hear from them why the promise couldn't be kept.

- I'm disappointed that you seem to be ignoring or silently discounting my statements of goodnatured intent ("I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective", "I know Blackwater likes ENFXs very much, as do I", "It is not our intention to point fingers (...), merely to explore this problem area in order to understand and perhaps contribute to the personal development of ENFXs we are close to" etc.). Without a response to those assurances, I don't know what more to do in order to alleviate the conflict.

I have been largely focused on the OP and the deliberate attempt to take a petty type-related weakness and spin it into a full-fledged moral deficiency that supposedly taints the interactions of two very different personality types. What comes after the OP is largely immaterial. It doesn't matter how nice you are about it; as long as you guys keep insisting on the charge of "hypocrisy," I disagree with you.

I don't doubt that you and Blackwater are nice people. I get the message that you've gotten a little fed up with the wishy-washiness of ENFXs, and you think you have located the core of their problem with the word "hypocrisy." You still like ENFXs, and you want to stress that it's nothing personal, but you want to jolt them into better behavior by letting them know that they are routinely acting like hypocrites. Fine.

I like you and Blackwater. As for your personality types, I like ENTPs and INTJs. Both types have very sharp intellects and I really like interacting with both types.

But I also think you're wrong about hypocrisy being at the core of ENFX behavior. I also think you're leveling a pretty serious charge. As the MBTI books point out, it's technically wrong to accuse ENFJs of a "lack of sincerity"; sincerity is actually an important value for them. Accusing them of hypocrisy IMO is worse yet.

So I continue to be rather adamant about the point that you've got it all wrong. I'm not being adamant because I dislike you or because I dislike INTJs and ENTPs. Like or dislike doesn't have anything to do with it. I'm being adamant because I think you're wrong about the "hypocrisy" charge.

Don't get freaked out about the "vindictiveness" charge. I wasn't saying that you and Blackwater are vindictive or that ENTPs and INTJs are vindictive. I just said that you may want to reconsider how you two are advancing your argument. The tone of your argument is coming off as vindictive (IMO) rather than convincing. While I trust you guys when you say that you like ENFJs and ENFPs, the one-sided personal anecdotes about petty ENFX rip-offs sound whiny. Thus, better adherence to a truly clinical approach would help clear up any potential ambiguity over personal motives and put the argument on a proper MBTI footing.

I'm very tired now, but I hope I have managed to communicate my good will.

Absolutely. You've demonstrated your goodwill time and time again in this thread and elsewhere in other threads. And given that Blackwater is a friend of yours, I'm assuming that Blackwater is also a person of goodwill. Birds of a feather, and all that.

But goodwill is not really the issue here. I'm addressing the charge of hypocrisy.

FL

 

[Usehername]

From what I've read and skimmed on this thread, the issue appears to be the difference between "unhealthy" and "healthy" ENFXs.

Personally, I know three healthy ENFJs, two healthy ENFPs, and one unhealthy ENFJ. Although, "immature" is the more appropriate word. He's also late teens, so it's not a high degree of immaturity.


The healthy ENFXs I know are able to really connect with people, bring out the best in others, make others feel appreciated and worthy, and let everyone have a better time.
Specifically, healthy ENFJs really feed my soul to get me excited and soul-searching; I feel like they are my favorite sometimes, b/c they make me a better person. They have qualities which ignite things in me where I have not been able to find elsewhere. They feed my soul.

ENFPs really get me goin' with feeling a little bit dazed but thrilled to just go along for the ride. I told an ENFP friend last night when he commented that he feels like his mind sometimes worked likes the movie Momento after not being able to remember something he journaled about literally last week (he said it was thrilling to read it! After a week! He's a smart guy, but terrible linear memory.) that that's one of the things I love about him.
It makes me feel like such a linear-thinking sensor (not that that's an insult in any way) when I'm around him b/c he's so sort of spastic. But yet if he has resolve to do something, he will get it done. I'm an N yet his ENFP baffles me. And I am forever fascinated.

 

[Lateralus]

Well, all I've got to say is that I don't have any of the fatal character flaws that the OP mentions.

Not everything can be attributed to type. Some people are flakes, regardless of their type. Some people are emotional wrecks, regardless of their type. Some people can't hold down a job, regardless of their type. I get the feeling that some people think they could predict what I'm going to eat for lunch tomorrow, simply because I'm an ENFP.

P.S. I don't give a shit about offending people I don't care about.

 

[Blackwater]

.

 

[Blackwater]

Fineline,

I can't understand why you keep mentioning that ENFP and ENFJ are very different types. I know that are. But in this instance they share a certain behavior in the empirical sense (differing when it comes motives). I lay claim to nothing else.

Also, I can testify that Economica has an almost negative interest in putting a negative spin on ENFx's, her ENFP boyfriend being a very good partner, and sticking with an ENFJ friend even when most of her close(r) friends deserted this ENFJ due to hypocrisy.

As for the slander, allegedly turning a "minor" flaw into a big deal by calling it hypocrisy, well:

Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, virtues and feelings that one does not truly possess.

Lateralus: Sure you're not ENTP

 

[proteanmix]

Fineline,

I can't understand why you keep mentioning that ENFP and ENFJ are very different types. I know that are. But in this instance they share a certain behavior in the empirical sense (differing when it comes motives). I lay claim to nothing else.

Also, I can testify that Economica has an almost negative interest in putting a negative spin on ENFx's, her ENFP boyfriend being a very good partner, and sticking with an ENFJ friend even when most of her close(r) friends deserted this ENFJ due to hypocrisy.

As for the slander, allegedly turning a "minor" flaw into a big deal by calling it hypocrisy, well:



Lateralus: Sure you're not ENTP

Maybe I'm not getting it either because it really sounds like you're saying ENFs are naturally hypocritical, more so than other types. A hypocrite is a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs AND/OR a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

Are you saying this is something ENFs do regularly? I'd sooner say nothing about my personal beliefs than deny them. Maybe you're dealing with some shady ENFs

 

[RDF]

Fineline,

I can't understand why you keep mentioning that ENFP and ENFJ are very different types. I know that are. But in this instance they share a certain behavior in the empirical sense (differing when it comes motives). I lay claim to nothing else.

Also, I can testify that Economica has an almost negative interest in putting a negative spin on ENFx's, her ENFP boyfriend being a very good partner, and sticking with an ENFJ friend even when most of her close(r) friends deserted this ENFJ due to hypocrisy.

As for the slander, allegedly turning a "minor" flaw into a big deal by calling it hypocrisy, well: [...]

All right. One more message and then I really am done with this thread.

I've raised a lot of objections and pointed out lots of alternate explanations for the issue at hand. You and Economica haven't addressed any of them.

Ptgatsby raised a bunch of similar objections and clarifications of a more technical or MBTI-related nature for the issue. You and Economica haven't addressed any of them.

Other people of a variety of different types have raised objections or drawn on their own experiences of ENFPs and ENFJs to disagree with you on the issues. You and Economica haven't addressed any of them.

ENFPs and ENFJs themselves have posted and said that your descriptions of them are completely wrong. You and Economica haven't addressed any of them.

The MBTI books flatly disagree with you. ENFPs and ENFJs are Idealists (using Keirsey's) designation, and they are routinely described as sympathetic, sincere, and empathetic. Thus, you two are using MBTI terms and concepts to come to a conclusion that is the exact opposite of how MBTI works. You and Economica haven't addressed any of the MBTI-related objections that have been raised.

At this point, you and Economica seem to be insisting that you're right about ENFXs for the main reason that you're nice people and you like ENFXs. I'm guessing that your reasoning goes something like this: "We genuinely like ENFXs, and we would never say something so mean about them unless it was really true!"



I don't think there's much point in me contributing to this thread anymore. We're all just talking past each other. You and Economica refuse to address any of the multitude of objections raised here. Meantime, as far as I'm concerned, your goodwill and good intentions don't insulate you from being mistaken. It still sounds to me that you're taking some relatively benign ENFX characteristic (diplomatic flexibility and reactivity to the situation at hand) and interpreting it as something much more sinister (deliberate intent to deceive the people around them for their own gain or comfort).

I do indeed think that you and Economica are well-intentioned. I've crossed paths with Economica in particular over a period of time, and she has been a strong, thoughtful contributor in other threads. I don't doubt her basic good instincts. I just think she has a little myopia about how her boyfriend works. There's such a thing as being too close to the subject you're studying. "Familiarity breeds contempt," as they say.

But as long as we're not dealing with the subject of ENFX motives, I look forward to encountering both of you in other threads and hearing your input on other subjects.

FL

 

[Economica]

You and Economica refuse to address any of the multitude of objections raised here.

Hey, FineLine, I just haven't gotten around to it. I've only made quick posts today; tomorrow I'll have the time to write something longer.

But as long as we're not dealing with the subject of ENFX motives, I look forward to encountering both of you in other threads and hearing your input on other subjects.

Well, I will post a reply. (You've accused me of closed-minded certitude; how can I not? ) If you don't want to answer, I won't hold it against you. Your posts reek of repulsion from the thread (originally caused, as I understand it, by the admittedly flawed OP) and I wouldn't be replying either if I felt like that.

 

[Usehername]

I just don't get what the OP is talking about. That's only been my experience with one immature ENFJ. I really think that maybe you guys just happened across a very unrepresentative sample of ENFs? 'Cause it seems like the majority of people here have experience that suggests otherwise.

 

[amber_rk]

I'm glad to have found this thread because I have an ENFJ friend who is really close, whom I could talk about regarding her characters.

Similar to the description of ENFJ hypcrisy described above, I frequently felt that my friend was a hypocrite because of her inconsistent actions. She would constantly think of what others would evaluate about herself, and act differently according to situations in order to earn appreciation.

Plus, she loves appreciation, admiration, attention - which she would sacrifice her logic (to me, it is like throwing away beliefs and logic of your own) and beliefs (if she has one) to gain those things. I normally think she is a very, very self-absorbed person who cannot but constantly think what others would think about herself. She has a tremendously large self pride which will often collides with the wish to please others but turn into a horrible stress that would hunt her for long time.

I frequently argued with her because I disliked how she behaved. I always thought her actions were hypocritical and pointless, and her intentions were to reach 'good judgement' from social norms.

Also, she is very sensitive towards criticism, (which I never care about when I have to criticize her actions) and would think about trivial remarks from others for a long time.

Regardless of this, I've been her friend for over four years and am a good advisor and a counselor to her when she has troubles. I often think she has hard time finding what 'she wants to do' because what she wants is ultimately to sustain good relations with others, (which can harm herself at some points)

"Selfish but wanting to sacrifice to please others" was the conclusion I made after analyzing her for a while.

 

[Economica]

Since this post is very long and for the sake of readers who have only skimmed the thread, I'd like to first emphasize my goodnatured intent once more. My focused participation in this thread is not caused by bottled-up dissatisfaction with the ENFXs in my life (to the extent that I am biased, I'm pretty sure it's in the other direction ). Instead my involvement reflects my interests in learning to bridge the NT/NF divide, preserving board harmony (out of empathy as well as for the sake of the quality of discussion) and, since your last post, FineLine, demonstratively practicing what I preach regarding closed-minded certitude.

---

The (admittedly poorly-presented) starting point for the thread was Blackwater's observation that the ENFXs he knows exhibit conspicuously inconsistent behavior; "most notably by the ENFX agreeing to one thing in one social setting and then saying the opposite two hours later" (OP). That is, the observed behavior goes beyond diplomacy into active position flipflopping.

(This is of course ironic since the NF types are supposed to value authenticity. However, perhaps an inherent difficulty prioritizing between people-pleasing and being true to themselves could be precisely why they take pride in accomplishing it.)

Assigning the labels of insincerity/hypocrisy to such inconsistent behavior was obviously controversial and IMO it has blurred the discussion of whether the behavior is common among ENFXs (much like how I claim and others agree that closed-minded certitude is common among INXJs). For instance, Brendan writes:

I will purposely hide parts of myself if I'm not sure how it will be received, and to be honest, I'm very, very good at lying...

Well, other than these two things having nothing to do with eachother, I've never said the opposite of what I actually think or believe if I wasn't being sarcastic.

...Two statements which I would welcome someone reconciling for me.

(BTW, Lateralus, I get the same vibe from you as Blackwater does: Are you sure you're not in fact an ENTP?)

I will now review the examples of ENFX inconsistency that have been given so far in the thread:

ENFP

Or take the following New York Times quote on a supposed ENFP:

"He means exactly what he says and tomorrow when he says the opposite he'll mean exactly that too."

I once worked with an ENFP producing a television show. Our editor had aired some intentions of censorship regarding our show and its content, should it be too radical. Not having signed anything, I knew that their intellectual copyright still pertained to us, the authors, and I made this ENFP promise me that we wouldn't let ourselves be censored.

Then one morning my ENFP partner calls me a says that the editor has just stated editing out a certain joke. Realizing that the editor has no right to do so without our approval I rush to the television station and prepare to browbeat the editor, only to find out that my ENFP partner had given the clear, caving into accomodation-pressure from the editor.

Objection: The ENFP is genuinely updating their position.

I don't know about the first case, but one might ask whether the notoriousness of the pattern does not belie the primacy of this motivation.

In the second case it's just a flat-out no from the horse's own mouth. The ENFP in question admits to having caved to accommodation pressure twice (first the easy thing to do was to make the promise, then the easy thing to do was to break it). He didn't even know what his own position was. I say this matter-of-factly; I feel no contempt, just the desire to help him get in touch with his values and become the champion he could be.

Objection: The behavior is not problematic.

As Blackwater acknowledged in the OP, this form of inconsistency "can be insanely charming in smaller matters", however, Varelse hit the nail on the head:

I've seen that, sometimes. It can make it a bit more difficult for me to trust them, when I can't determine if they're committed to what they're saying or not.

This also goes for the behavior as exhibited by ENFJs:

ENFJ

[A slimy and slick coworker] made a joke and I was the only that laughed. I didn't think it was funny I just laughed because my other coworkers were giving him the cold shoulder. I don't blame them, he's not a nice person in my opinion.

As soon as it was over, I was thinking to myself, why did you laugh? It wasn't funny. When I think about most of my interactions with this guy, I know I give a different impression than what I feel. I don't like him, have never liked him, but he would never guess it, or rather I'd go to great lengths to hide my true feelings for him.

There this ENFJ who makes occasional appearances in my life. (...) She has such an easy time tuning into what people want from her that she's constantly committing herself to promises which she can't/won't follow through. Specifically, she promised me, and my closest friends that she'd dump her guilt-manipulating boyfriend, only to stay with him for 4 years.

(Another ENFJ) Has written a book on modern philosophy (kuhn, popper etc.). I know his opinions on the subject through and through and yet I have often seen him relinquish a standpoint in favor of accomodation, rather than sticking with his superior arguments, he'll end up saying the opposite of what he thinks in the present situation (although he won't actually change opinion accordinly). No one is served by this kind of behavior, really.

My ex who's ENFJ admitted to me once that he's a big hypocrite. I had to agree with him. He had been like this (deceiving others and himself in the church) for years.

Similar to the description of ENFJ hypcrisy described above, I frequently felt that my friend was a hypocrite because of her inconsistent actions. She would constantly think of what others would evaluate about herself, and act differently according to situations in order to earn appreciation.

To flesh out the first of Blackwater's two examples:

The ENFJ stayed with her boyfriend for almost 5 years while telling her close friends for 4 of those years that she wanted to dump him. Indeed, seeing them together, it was obvious that she disrespected him and that there was little affection between them. For this reason, as the years progressed without her managing to dump him (she tried to do so twice but both times he emotionally blackmailed her into staying) and with her growing increasingly unhappy, our meetings inevitably turned to the question of why she did not either leave him or get some therapy. For years - and this is truly a tragic credit to ENFJ persuasiveness - she continuously convinced us that she would be leaving him very soon.

Objection: She was obviously malfunctioning to the extent where it was unproductive to hold her rationally accountable as you seem to have done. Focusing on her inconsistency here is about as naively unfeeling as it gets.

Guilty as charged.

Objection: ENFXs are no more susceptible to inconsistent behavior than other types. You guys just happened across a very unrepresentative sample of ENFXs.

Perhaps. That's partly what the OP wanted to investigate.

If people can stand continuing this discussion (?) I say a poll (in a new thread) is in order. (Me statistics.)

---

Please let me know if I have glossed over something crucial.

 

[proteanmix]

Would more ENFs chime in about this issue? It's mostly non-ENFs defending with very little input from ENFs.

I wonder if this is a case of not wanting to air our dirty laundry? Although I think I'm on the borderline of S and N, I still identify with the ENFJ description more and when I honestly think about my behavior in certain instances (like the one I gave) I can see how people would get the impression that I may be being insincere although it doesn't stem from conscious attempts to be a hypocrite.

I often feel torn between being loyal to my friends and being nice to everyone. I have experienced many problems in the past where I was friendly to someone one of my friends didn't get along with and my friends found my behavior questionable. I think this stems from my desire to treat all people equally and if I have no direct reason (their beef is with my friend and not me) to act in a certain way I don't. Also, this may be selfish and Machiavellian ohmy but I'm going to say it anyway, I never want to create enemies and I know exactly what to do to not create them. It's just not a good game plan. I'm probably not as altruistic as some other people here, but I'm not going to create any problems for myself and being "nice" to everyone helps a lot. In the past I have purposely made friends with people that are shunned (partly because I feel sympathetic) because you never know what the future holds and elephants have long memories. It really doesn't seem like good business to me. I suppose these actions can be interpreted as hypocritical, but that's not my motivation. OTOH, I have quite a high tolerance for foolishness from other people and I have stayed in situations where I am obviously not benefiting from the transactions based on a future hope of things changing. I hope this balances out in the universe.

The problem of breaking promises is not something I do often. I go to extreme lengths to keep myself out of promises that I know I can't keep. If I do promise someone something I'll try to keep it, even to the exclusion of other things namely myself. I don't like inconsistent behavior in myself and that's usually enough to keep me in check.

I admit to my bad behavior, and you may see other ENFs not being their glorious best but I doubt most of you are aware of the aftershocks. When I know that I have done something that is inconsistent with my ideals, I punish myself quite thoroughly. I don't even know how to explain how I feel, but it's really really NOT GOOD. Like missing work, staying in bed for days, crying kind of bad. My self-worth completely plummets and I lose sight of who I am. This is why I try to keep these instances to a minimum. It's just not worth how I feel afterwards.

 

[Lateralus]

Economica, regarding my type, I think the F/T distinction is bullshit. It's more dependent on circumstance than preference. Whether you treat people warmly or coldly has far more to do with how you were raised than MBTI type theory. I act differently depending on the circumstances, but I am certain I'm an closer to being an ENFP than ENTP. You hardly know me, so I guess I can understand why you would be confused. Perhaps it would be better explained by someone who knows me better, like Jennifer.

Regarding this entire thread...it's pointless. The entire premise is flawed. Humans are hypocrites. ALL HUMANS. So why does the OP notice this more in ENFXs? Perhaps it's because they talk a lot. I've seen this behavior in all sorts of people, not just ENFXs. The only consistency I've seen is that I see it more with extroverts than introverts, so my conclusion is that people who talk a lot are more likely to be exposed as hypocrites.

I think this has almost nothing to do with MBTI and everything to do with maturity and self esteem. The reason you see it more in ENPXs is because they're more likely to be put in a situation where their hypocrisy could be exposed. It's that simple, really.

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

Regarding this entire thread...it's pointless. The entire premise is flawed. Humans are hypocrites. ALL HUMANS. So why does the OP notice this more in ENFXs?

The reason I have not felt the desire or need to respond to this thread has nothing to do with dirty laundry. I am honest about my flaws even those I would rather not disclose. The above statement explains perfectly my thoughts on the matter. Why defend bullshit? I think if this thread was meant to be a learning experience (as stated several times) it should have been done very differently. I appreciate that FL took the time to do what he did here. It appears to me people are going to believe what they want and nothing can be said at this point to change it. I think any "defense" contributed would be twisted honestly. I don't know if the other ENFs feel this way but I do.

 

[Blackwater]

I've seen this behavior in all sorts of people, not just ENFXs. The only consistency I've seen is that I see it more with extroverts than introverts, so my conclusion is that people who talk a lot are more likely to be exposed as hypocrites.

So you're basically saying that an INTJ would relinquish a standpoint just as soon as an ENFP would?

Regarding this entire thread...it's pointless. The entire premise is flawed. Humans are hypocrites. ALL HUMANS. So why does the OP notice this more in ENFXs?

I agree that all humans are hypocrites in the sense that the psychologically project (former) vices onto others. However, that is clearly not the definition I, or anyone else, have been discussing in this thread.

 

[Usehername]

So you're basically saying that an INTJ would relinquish a standpoint just as soon as an ENFP would?

She's not saying that, I don't think, but at the same time, given the general description of ProteinMix, the bolded parts are what I (an INTJ who values people and social interaction) can completely relate with:

I often feel torn between being loyal to my friends and being nice to everyone. I have experienced many problems in the past where I was friendly to someone one of my friends didn't get along with and my friends found my behavior questionable. I think this stems from my desire to treat all people equally and if I have no direct reason (their beef is with my friend and not me) to act in a certain way I don't. Also, this may be selfish and Machiavellian () but I'm going to say it anyway, I never want to create enemies and I know exactly what to do to not create them. It's just not a good game plan. I'm probably not as altruistic as some other people here, but I'm not going to create any problems for myself and being "nice" to everyone helps a lot. In the past I have purposely made friends with people that are shunned (partly because I feel sympathetic) because you never know what the future holds and elephants have long memories. It really doesn't seem like good business to me. I suppose these actions can be interpreted as hypocritical, but that's not my motivation. OTOH, I have quite a high tolerance for foolishness from other people and I have stayed in situations where I am obviously not benefiting from the transactions based on a future hope of things changing. I hope this balances out in the universe.

The problem of breaking promises is not something I do often. I go to extreme lengths to keep myself out of promises that I know I can't keep. If I do promise someone something I'll try to keep it, even to the exclusion of other things namely myself. I don't like inconsistent behavior in myself and that's usually enough to keep me in check.

I admit to my bad behavior, and you may see other ENFs not being their glorious best but I doubt most of you are aware of the aftershocks. When I know that I have done something that is inconsistent with my ideals, I punish myself quite thoroughly. I don't even know how to explain how I feel, but it's really really NOT GOOD. Like missing work, staying in bed for days, crying kind of bad. My self-worth completely plummets and I lose sight of who I am. This is why I try to keep these instances to a minimum. It's just not worth how I feel afterwards.

To me, it does appear to be a universal human thing, where ENFs perhaps just plain run into it more because they run into everything social-related more.

 

[Lateralus]

So you're basically saying that an INTJ would relinquish a standpoint just as soon as an ENFP would?

All other things being equal, yes. I believe an INTJ would be less likely to be giving their opinion in the first place. So that's why they appear less hypocritical. It's only an appearance. An immature INTJ is just as likely to be a hypocrite as an immature ENFP. If you don't believe that, then...well...I'll shut up. This is MBTIc, not INTPc.

I agree that all humans are hypocrites in the sense that the psychologically project (former) vices onto others. However, that is clearly not the definition I, or anyone else, have been discussing in this thread.

Oh please. That's exactly what you've been talking about. Are you backtracking now?