Help me type my ex please

[Sahara]

What I am asking you to do, is probably going to make me highly biased towards a certain type, to the point of avoiding them the moment I realise what type they are, but I need understanding within me, I need to feel safe, and knowing exactly what to avoid would help alot.

So I need help with two functions that I just can't pin down. S/N and J/P, the rest is definately IxTx.

Would anyone be prepared to help me pin down the last two?

I had him as an ISTJ, only because another ISTJ member (Sona) reminds me of him so much, except a difference in a certain form of intelligence.

What questions can I ask myself from my memories, that can help me fill in the last pieces of this puzzle?

 

[Sahara]

I just need to pop out for a few hours, but when I come back this evening I hope there will be some suggestions.

 

[Geoff]

P v J. Did he like to work (J)or play first(P), if there was a choice. Did he turn up to things early, on time or late(P). How did he react if you sprang a surprise event eg lets go for a trip this afternoon - great = P, cautious = J. How was he on accepting that something was right/correct. Easy and/or good closure = J. Uncertain, open ended = P.
Most of those questions should be readily identifiable by reference to your relationship.
I actually think the two you have least certain are usually the easiest. E/I and T/F are often the hardest to type...
-Geoff

 

[Economica]

The MBTI prayers might be helpful:

ISTJ: Lord, help me to relax about insignificant details beginning tomorrow at 11:41.23 a.m. EST.

ISTP: Lord, help me to consider other people's feelings, even if most of them ARE hypersensitive.

INTJ: Lord, keep me open to others' ideas, WRONG though they may be.

INTP: Lord, help me be less independent, just let me do it my way.

At least if he is S. I've seen more than one ISTX typed using these.

(The look on one anti-MBTI ISFJ girl's face when she heard her most common gripe about her boyfriend regurgitated as the ISTP prayer was priceless. )

 

[Sahara]

P v J. Did he like to work (J)or play first(P), if there was a choice.

No, he was very lazy and could put off doing things for ages in order to go play, however he was very insistant that I do the things he was putting off for him before such and such time or else, because he demanded things be done on time to his liking, he just was too lazy to do it himself.

Things like cleaning he expected done within the first few hours of the day or he would go ballistic because he was a neat freak.....so it was I who had to work first, and he who got to play.

Did he turn up to things early, on time or late(P).

Depended, for me and the kids, family and friends always late, for appointments, early. (I am always early too, I hate lateness)

How did he react if you sprang a surprise event eg lets go for a trip this afternoon - great = P, cautious = J.

He wouldn't have been great about it, he didn't like things that threw his day off of his own personal plans. Which is the same here, I don't really like suprises, but then that could be the going out example you gave, I don't like suggestions to go out, neither of us liked the other organising things on the others behalf. I can be spontaneous, he can be spontaneous, but we equally didn't like spontanaity from others.

How was he on accepting that something was right/correct. Easy and/or good closure = J. Uncertain, open ended = P.

He was always right, didn't matter how much I proved he was wrong, he was always right, or he would twist his original words to make it sound like I was always wrong.

An example, I am half English, I don't look half English for a Moroccan girl, I look like a full on Berber. I have an English mother, she came to visit (my 4th contact with her), he took us both out for a meal, sat and spoke with us both. Within 2 days of stewing it over in his head he accused me of hiring a white woman to pretend to be my mother, that he knew that I was a full Moroccan who was too ashamed of her roots to admit it. (I have no idea where his intense paranoia came from)

I pulled out my birth certificate to prove his preposterous claim (you would laugh if I told you the rest of his acusations), he refused to look, he refused to accept it as evidence, he maintained that he was right no matter what.

Most of those questions should be readily identifiable by reference to your relationship.
I actually think the two you have least certain are usually the easiest. E/I and T/F are often the hardest to type...
-Geoff

I am convinced he was an introvert, he was always quiet, he didn't like having friends, and only had one very close one, and a few aquaintances, but even then he shunned all company. I feel 99% sure that he was an introvert, I was way more extraverted than he was when we met. (infact I am beggining to wonder if I am just Introverted because it was forced on me so much)

I believe he was a T type as he had no empathy for the suffering of others, he sometimes found it amusing, he had no compassion for anyone, he seemed to have no feelings whatsoever, he didn't even grieve well. He tortured animals as a child.
His hobbies involved engines, techonology, science, his best subject was maths. Doesn't that sound T to you?

 

[Totenkindly]

Just curious, since you have been on the inside, Sahara:

Does the Muslim institution/culture push males towards a certain collection of type traits?

A case in point: The International Church of Christ (ICC) was considered cultish in many ways here in the states.

One problem was that everyone who joined showed an uncomfortable tendency to exhibit ESFJ behavior... which just happened to be the MBTI type of its founder. ESFJ traits were revered, the opposing traits were punished or decried. This weeded out those who refused to change, and it changed those who refused to leave, leaving "natural type" tainted to some degree.

Does the Muslim faith bring out certain functions at the expense of others for men (and, I suppose, for women as well)?

 

[Sahara]

The MBTI prayers might be helpful:

ISTJ: Lord, help me to relax about insignificant details beginning tomorrow at 11:41.23 a.m. EST.

ISTP: Lord, help me to consider other people's feelings, even if most of them ARE hypersensitive.

INTJ: Lord, keep me open to others' ideas, WRONG though they may be.

At least if he is S. I've seen more than one ISTX typed using these.

(The look on one anti-MBTI ISFJ girl's face when she heard her most common gripe about her boyfriend regurgitated as the ISTP prayer was priceless. )

All those 3 prayers sound like they could fit him. The last one not at all.


The only reason I begin to wonder about him possibly being an N type, is because of the long theological debates we would have, he was constantly wondering about those things, and so was I. Which I thought was the province of N? (I could be so wrong)

The only difference was he was able to take his answers from a book, or an imam, I couldn't see my answers getting closure, I was always looking further, you give me an answer and the answer becomes my next question.

You gave him an answer, and showed him where it existed within the text, and the question was satisfied within him.

 

[ptgatsby]

You gave him an answer, and showed him where it existed within the text, and the question was satisfied within him.

High probability of him being an ISTJ, from what I have heard. This supports it fairly heavily.

Also, knowing his history, it is highly probable that he is an -ST- with high neuroticism, as he correlates to quite a few of the related behaviours associated with that combination. So I'd type him as an ISTJ, but unlike the more stable duty-bound variety, he is a more neurotic/emotionally reactive type, one who would lash out easily. If so, you'd be looking for earmarks like justification from authority, blaming the other person for his acts, high emotional content to certain authorities... all things that you have expressed before.

 

[Sahara]

Just curious, since you have been on the inside, Sahara:

Does the Muslim institution/culture push males towards a certain collection of type traits?

A case in point: The International Church of Christ (ICC) was considered cultish in many ways here in the states.

One problem was that everyone who joined showed an uncomfortable tendency to exhibit ESFJ behavior... which just happened to be the MBTI type of its founder. ESFJ traits were revered, the opposing traits were punished or decried. This weeded out those who refused to change, and it changed those who refused to leave, leaving "natural type" tainted to some degree.

Does the Muslim faith bring out certain functions at the expense of others for men (and, I suppose, for women as well)?

I would say that it brings out ISTx behaviour in the men, and ISFx in the women. Introversion is highly valued in Islam.

A man is only meant to go work, pray with other men, and spend the evening at home with his family, last prayer is like a curfew (that so many do not know) from my reading, any social activities after last prayer should be religious circles, or family religious circles.

You are not meant to question too much, to seek too far, which is why I think it pushes an S on us, all you need to know is in a book, and you shouldn't question beyond it.

I think men are raised to not show emotion, that is a female thing, so the push to be a T for men must be strong, the women are brought up believing that they are emotional wrecks which is why they are unitelligent, and their witness only worth half of a mans, because they are F.

I can not be sure on J or P, I think that is realy difficult for me to determine.

What do you think?

 

[Geoff]

No, he was very lazy and could put off doing things for ages in order to go play, however he was very insistant that I do the things he was putting off for him before such and such time or else, because he demanded things be done on time to his liking, he just was too lazy to do it himself.

Things like cleaning he expected done within the first few hours of the day or he would go ballistic because he was a neat freak.....so it was I who had to work first, and he who got to play.



Depended, for me and the kids, family and friends always late, for appointments, early. (I am always early too, I hate lateness)



He wouldn't have been great about it, he didn't like things that threw his day off of his own personal plans. Which is the same here, I don't really like suprises, but then that could be the going out example you gave, I don't like suggestions to go out, neither of us liked the other organising things on the others behalf. I can be spontaneous, he can be spontaneous, but we equally didn't like spontanaity from others.



He was always right, didn't matter how much I proved he was wrong, he was always right, or he would twist his original words to make it sound like I was always wrong.

An example, I am half English, I don't look half English for a Moroccan girl, I look like a full on Berber. I have an English mother, she came to visit (my 4th contact with her), he took us both out for a meal, sat and spoke with us both. Within 2 days of stewing it over in his head he accused me of hiring a white woman to pretend to be my mother, that he knew that I was a full Moroccan who was too ashamed of her roots to admit it. (I have no idea where his intense paranoia came from)

I pulled out my birth certificate to prove his preposterous claim (you would laugh if I told you the rest of his acusations), he refused to look, he refused to accept it as evidence, he maintained that he was right no matter what.



I am convinced he was an introvert, he was always quiet, he didn't like having friends, and only had one very close one, and a few aquaintances, but even then he shunned all company. I feel 99% sure that he was an introvert, I was way more extraverted than he was when we met. (infact I am beggining to wonder if I am just Introverted because it was forced on me so much)

I believe he was a T type as he had no empathy for the suffering of others, he sometimes found it amusing, he had no compassion for anyone, he seemed to have no feelings whatsoever, he didn't even grieve well. He tortured animals as a child.
His hobbies involved engines, techonology, science, his best subject was maths. Doesn't that sound T to you?

It's very difficult to type an unhealthy individual because they are often overwhelmed by their shadow functions. If I had to pick something though I'd go for P with some sort of obsessive disorder/low self esteem bullying issues.

-Geoff

 

[Sahara]

High probability of him being an ISTJ, from what I have heard. This supports it fairly heavily.

Also, knowing his history, it is highly probable that he is an -ST- with high neuroticism, as he correlates to quite a few of the related behaviours associated with that combination. So I'd type him as an ISTJ, but unlike the more stable duty-bound variety, he is a more neurotic/emotionally reactive type, one who would lash out easily. If so, you'd be looking for earmarks like justification from authority, blaming the other person for his acts, high emotional content to certain authorities... all things that you have expressed before.

Yes yes, that is him, completely unable to look within himself for answers, blaming others, using authority as an excuse, totally paranoid headcase. So ISTJ? J even though he was a bum?

Are there any mature ISTJ's around MBTI or INTPcentral that I could observe? Sona is the only other example so far lol

 

[Sahara]

It's very difficult to type an unhealthy individual because they are often overwhelmed by their shadow functions. If I had to pick something though I'd go for P with some sort of obsessive disorder/low self esteem bullying issues.

-Geoff

Ok, 1 for P, and 1 for J.

But we are definately going with S then?

 

[Totenkindly]

High probability of him being an ISTJ, from what I have heard. This supports it fairly heavily.

Also, knowing his history, it is highly probable that he is an -ST- with high neuroticism, as he correlates to quite a few of the related behaviours associated with that combination. So I'd type him as an ISTJ, but unlike the more stable duty-bound variety, he is a more neurotic/emotionally reactive type, one who would lash out easily. If so, you'd be looking for earmarks like justification from authority, blaming the other person for his acts, high emotional content to certain authorities... all things that you have expressed before.

If I had to pick, based on Sahara's comments, this is what I would say as well.

I think the neurotic behaviors / flare points are the validators here.

A man is only meant to go work, pray with other men, and spend the evening at home with his family, last prayer is like a curfew (that so many do not know) from my reading, any social activities after last prayer should be religious circles, or family religious circles.

Uh huh. This is a difference from conservative Christianity here. I think the preferred types in practice nowadays (regardless of scriptural leanings) are ESTJs being strong men and ISFJs being the quintessential female.

NF is valued in terms of creating "mystical experience" and NT is valued in terms of explaining doctrine in a more holistic way... but as soon as it bumps up against the SJ valueset/establishment, it is nipped in the bud.

You are not meant to question too much, to seek too far, which is why I think it pushes an S on us, all you need to know is in a book, and you shouldn't question beyond it.

I think the more revelation-based the religion, the more that Openness (correlated to N) is rejected. If you already have the answers, there is no point in continual searching except to wander off the track and fall into darkness.

I can not be sure on J or P, I think that is realy difficult for me to determine.

If your ex was ISTP, he would be more responsive to the data coming from his surroundings and more freewheeling. (Ti + Se) He sounds much more like ISTJ. (Si + Te) -- he has an internalized ideal world that is his compass, and then tries to order the outer world to match it.

Yes yes, that is him, completely unable to look within himself for answers, blaming others, using authority as an excuse, totally paranoid headcase. So ISTJ? J even though he was a bum?

Yes. I see this pattern in male ISTJs. "Work" is external and sensory. So either they are visibly doing hands-on work that is clearly delineated, or they're not doing the work. ISFJ's are practical in the same sense; I watch them either go, go, go doing very visible handy work, or they crash and veg completely, then call themselves lazy. That's the paradigm they view work as.

In contrast, an SP usually sees everything as "playtime." Their work and their play seem similar, and not as sharp a contrast. They are just "nosing around" no matter what they're doing.

 

[Geoff]

If I had to pick, based on Sahara's comments, this is what I would say as well.

I think the neurotic behaviors / flare points are the validators here.

But what if they are extreme distress shadow functions?

an NFP, for example, would exhibit high stress STJ. Rigid, inflexible, cold, dominating.

-Geoff

 

[Sahara]

But what if they are extreme distress shadow functions?

an NFP, for example, would exhibit high stress STJ. Rigid, inflexible, cold, dominating.

-Geoff

Looking back on his life I couldn't ever give him an NFP tag, never dreamy, not into books, no imagination, practical, down to earth in a cruel pessimistic type way.

I understand what you are saying about shadow functions but he would tell me of his childhood and life up to meeting me, and from what I have observed of NFP's playful outlook of life, I don't see that in him.

 

[Geoff]

Looking back on his life I couldn't ever give him an NFP tag, never dreamy, not into books, no imagination, practical, down to earth in a cruel pessimistic type way.

I understand what you are saying about shadow functions but he would tell me of his childhood and life up to meeting me, and from what I have observed of NFP's playful outlook of life, I don't see that in him.

I wasnt typing him NFP, that was a generic example.

Also, I've seen you under stress be cold and rigid in the face of a difficult situation, so you can see what I mean if you think about it..

-Geoff

PS you do look a little as if you have english ancestry too I would say... despite what he might have thought....

 

[ptgatsby]

Yes yes, that is him, completely unable to look within himself for answers, blaming others, using authority as an excuse, totally paranoid headcase. So ISTJ? J even though he was a bum?

Be careful about generalised stereotypes. For example, ISFJs make up over 60-70% of the nursing population, an incredible outstripping of any other type. However, saying that all ISFJs are/should be nurses isn't accurate.

It's the same thing with ISTJs. Just because policemen (as an example, I don't know the numbers) are more likely to to be ISTJs doesn't mean that they have to be... to the degree that it would be unlikely than an ISTJ would be a policeman, although it is likely that a policeman is an ISTJ.

Also, neuroticism is a serious barrier to personal relationships, job stability and performance. Unless one is in a career that required quick and extreme reactions, the ST and neuroticism components would be very difficult to do well with.

But we are definately going with S then?

The likelyhood of him being an N is already lower than 1/3, followed by some S tendencies (the concrete book examples, rather like my data drive).

I went with J because he has a really hard time integrating new information into his worldview - this is largely a J problem. The paranoid aspects are also J more than P.

 

[Totenkindly]

But what if they are extreme distress shadow functions?
an NFP, for example, would exhibit high stress STJ. Rigid, inflexible, cold, dominating.

I don't know, it just did not seem to come off this way.

His normal mode of operation -- the place where he goes naturally and seems to do instinctively -- is the ISTJ stuff.

An NFP under THAT amount of stress -- to be driven so FAR into the extreme shadow functions for such a long time -- just could NOT handle it for as long as her ex seems to have. They literally would have a breakdown. I can't picture any NFP I have met being able to tolerate that for very long at all.

As a comparison, INTPs get pushed into SFJ land sometimes -- but they don't STAY there. They usually blow up, then get a grip or withdraw. (That says something as well, I guess... See how people retreat BACK to their preferred functions, even after they have indulged the shadow?)

The ex here seems to have the STJ as the foundation. The paranoia (Ne) is his inferior shadow (lots of paranoia!), and the shadow Fi is him focusing solely on his own values and refusing to regard anyone else's as important... it justifies him sticking with SiTe. Meanwhile, he clings to the Si + Te in order to keep his world stabilized.

At least, that is how I am seeing it.

 

[Geoff]

But he may have been highly unhealthy and deep within his shadows. From all I've heard he was hardly a paragon of good mental health...

He could be unhealthy because he is trying to be something he is not too. He may be an NP trying desperately to be SJ to fit with his religion and teaching, and desperately unhappy and abusive as a result.

-Geoff

 

[Totenkindly]

But he may have been highly unhealthy and deep within his shadows. From all I've heard he was hardly a paragon of good mental health...

He could be unhealthy because he is trying to be something he is not too. He may be an NP trying desperately to be SJ to fit with his religion and teaching, and desperately unhappy and abusive as a result.

Well... is he?

He could also be a plant for the CIA, monitoring Sahara because she is the unknown heir to the fortune of one of the middle-east oil barons. But it's not likely.

But seriously, what would an NP (especially an NFP) trying so hard to be an SJ (especially an STJ) look like? Can we paint a probable picture of one and see how it compares? Do we have any notable examples of that in the public culture?