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INXJ closed-minded certitude

Do you suffer from/find that INXJs tend to suffer from closed-minded certitude?


  • Total voters
    109

Mycroft

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Psst, Jen, just hinting at a reality check budges an INXJ not an inch. ;)

Also, I would only accept a post where I claimed, in no uncertain terms, that I think that I'm always right to refute my claim that I don't think that I'm always right.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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I haven't voted because I don't view INTJ's as having close minded certitude. I would describe them as having open minded certitude. INTJ's are very willing to listen to another's viewpoint and to receive correction. It's just that they seem deceptively sure about their all of their ideas regardless of what they are.


My daughter is so funny because she will make some assertion without thinking much about it as if it is Absolute Truth, then I will tell her that she is wrong and why. If I'm undeniably right, she will say "Exactly!"

It's like watching a cat commit some ungraceful act, then immediately begin bathing itself. "I meant to do that!"

I have a similar experience with an INTJ friend of mine. Whenever you point out a flaw in his argument he retorts, "That's what I'm saying!" He says that even if it's obviously the exact opposite of what he's been saying. :)
 

SolitaryWalker

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Twice now I have posted the following regarding what I find is the most common, vexing and self-destructive problem area for INTJs (and possibly INFJs?), namely closed-minded certitude:


Tell me about it..

Watch Cyberflauner in this thread..at least look at posts 25 and 30...30 especially..



The Relationship between Language and Culture: Philosophy Forums

and in this thread..after I thoroughly answered all of his hostile criticisms..look at the way he responds..Some sophism..and then 'if you now are admitting that you're wrong..then good' this is in the very end..

Schopenhauer?: Philosophy Forums
 

MacGuffin

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This thread seems mostly aimed at INTJs (I voted that way too), because I have not seen this behavior from INFJs. Or perhaps they hide it better.
 

SolitaryWalker

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This thread seems mostly aimed at INTJs (I voted that way too), because I have not seen this behavior from INFJs. Or perhaps they hide it better.

INFJs have this trait towards their personal values and can come off as terribly self-righteous people for that reason.
 

MacGuffin

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INFJs have this trait towards their personal values and can come off as terribly self-righteous people for that reason.

They (seem) far more willing to understand another's point of view. Even if they don't agree with it.
 

SolitaryWalker

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When it comes to ideas yes (Ni-Ti), though when their character is in question--not so much..they wouldnt be any more willing to understand how the other person feels than the INTJ would about ideas..I am thinking that the Fe is as analogous to the INFJ as the Te to the INTJ.
 

Mycroft

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Economica

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So what exactly is Ni then? I often hear it explained as being able to view a scenario from multiple perspectives. That would seem to be the opposite of what you describe here, and yet it is the primary function of both INTJs and INFJs. I am getting so confused.

I don't blame you. I'm fuzzy on the functions too. But clear definitions are for the INTPs to work out, right? :whistling: J/K.

The following descriptions of Ni from the Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki really resonate with me:

Introverted Intuitions are not really ideas. They're like trains at the edge of articulated knowledge. You can't claim them or advocate them. You put on a hat, grab hold of a boxcar door, and see where they go.

Ni is a way of knowing (or at least thinking you know) that bypasses reason, facts, evidence, the expected or intended interpretations of signs, or anything you can point to, simply giving you an awareness or belief that seems indisputably true to you, period. You can't tell by introspection how you got this idea. There is no thought process. There is only tuning into this form of awareness and just knowing.

I'm personally coming to terms with my half-brilliant :laugh: half-retarded :rolleyes2: Ni by distancing myself from the insights ("trains") I get. My friend Blackwater has suggested that when I get an inspirational insight, then instead of claiming it as My Truth, I should renounce ownership of it and just put it out there for us both to examine. That way, if the insight turns out to be one of the off-base ones, I don't lose face when the flaws sooner or later become apparent (and if it was brilliant, I still get credit ;)).

I also have no way to answer the original poll. The potential for irony is dizzying. I do find myself exploring a somewhat devil's advocate position in relationship to whomever I am discussing to be certain all sides are viewed. My entire mind is also in a deep state of flux in which there is virtually nothing I am certain of. I wrestle to approach politics, religion, philosophy, etc. because I view most sides simultaneously. It's very difficult to reach a decision unless it is in something in which I have been viewing every side for a long time, then when opportunity arises, I settle on the best plan, shut my eyes, and leap. I actually wish I could have more certainty. I'm getting rather tired of this endless expanse of grey. But am I certain of not being certain? :(

FWIW, toonia, I'll buy that you don't really suffer from CC. I know I've mentally filed you under the heading of "mature poster". :) (However, this has been known to happen to people simply for agreeing with me :blush: so it might not be worth that much. ;))

Also, I would only accept a post where I claimed, in no uncertain terms, that I think that I'm always right to refute my claim that I don't think that I'm always right.

Jen, I eat my words. Apparently his pulse did go up. :devil:

I haven't voted because I don't view INTJ's as having close minded certitude. I would describe them as having open minded certitude. INTJ's are very willing to listen to another's viewpoint and to receive correction. It's just that they seem deceptively sure about their all of their ideas regardless of what they are.

I have a similar experience with an INTJ friend of mine. Whenever you point out a flaw in his argument he retorts, "That's what I'm saying!" He says that even if it's obviously the exact opposite of what he's been saying. :)

This is what Langrenus described and what I call the keeping-up-appearances variant of CC (see post #17). If it doesn't annoy you (or if the other INTJs you know don't do this), then I suggest you vote for the "not really a problem area for INTJs" option (or the <50% option).

Tell me about it..

Watch Cyberflauner in this thread..at least look at posts 25 and 30...30 especially..

He's an INTJ all right. :yes: I wish I could wrap my mind around the content of your dispute, though, so I could judge for myself just how wrong he is.

I only skimmed the threads, but it occurred to me that what I would have done in your place is to pick the single worst contradiction you thought he made and then put it on display with devastating clarity. If you give an INXJ (/INTJ) with CC and on the defensive anything with which to distort or distract the discussion from the beef you have with them, then they'll never concede their error (or retreat, which on an internet board is good enough).

They (seem) far more willing to understand another's point of view. Even if they don't agree with it.

INFJs are much more diplomatic about it, but I believe they can still suffer from closed-minded certitude - i.e. they'll think they're right, but they won't insist on it if doing so runs contrary to making nice. At least with an INTJ you know where you stand. :rolleyes:
 

Totenkindly

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Also, I would only accept a post where I claimed, in no uncertain terms, that I think that I'm always right to refute my claim that I don't think that I'm always right.

Jen, I eat my words. Apparently his pulse did go up. :devil:

omg I had to read that sentence three times before I could even understand what Mycroft was saying... (He truly has a dizzying intellect.)

I don't want to keep poking him and seeing him mirror that scene of Ash (in "Alien") spinning around and puking white bile everywhere right before his head pops off.

INFJs are much more diplomatic about it, but I believe they can still suffer from closed-minded certitude - i.e. they'll think they're right, but they won't insist on it if doing so runs contrary to making nice. At least with an INTJ you know where you stand. :rolleyes:

True. INFJs tend to be extremely discrete. They might have the same internal reaction, but are usually very concerned about playing nice and acting in a relationally appropriate way, so as not to hurt anyone unnecessarily. Inside though, they will still have the same sharp opinions and sometimes stress because they don't allow themselves to release it. INTJs focus on the ideas and assume the other person will just have to deal... if they see it as worth their while to engage at all, in terms of it interfering in their own plans.
 

Metamorphosis

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We INTJs base a lot of our self-esteem on being insightful and decisive, but we are not always right - and that's okay. Making errors (of fact and of judgment) is forgivable. (People don't mind that we are not perfectly oracular. Really! ) Refusing to recognize and own up to our errors, however, costs us serious points. And it's idiotic, really, given that we aren't fooling anyone, just alienating them. Some strategists!

I would say that I definately have this, but I don't always use it. If I am with close friends, I will own up to it if I am wrong. However, if I am around idiots or people that I don't know well, it will sometimes annoy me that they have proved me wrong and I will just let the issue drop (Although, I will frequently think about their point of view later and decide that it was, in fact, better).

INTJs are always right. It's not that they are "objectively" right, it's that, right of this moment, they are right. If it turns out that they were wrong about something, they change it... and of course, that means they are right again. Since the change is instant, they are never wrong... always right, always certain.

The general consensus seems to be that this is a weakness. I disagree. Does it help our social life? Well...no, but it can definately be a strength professionaly (as in...anything that isn't social). Sometimes the appearance of confidence is just as important as actually being confident. This is particularly true for those in leadership positions. Appearing to "flip-flop" on positions doesn't help you at all. This is probably why we tend to do this.

Plus, I think it is a strength that we are willing to change our position at all. Would it not be even worse to just stick with our original wrong, point of view?

I guess what I am trying to say is that this close-minded certitude isn't a weakness, it is a strength. Our true weakness is that we are not able to adapt it socially, and thus make it more effective. That is why it appears to be a weakness...We are examining it from a casual conversation/social situation point of view.

Being wrong sometimes does not hurt our standing with other people.

I entirely agree, but as I just stated, the appearance of being wrong too often can hurt in professional situations.

I haven't voted because I don't view INTJ's as having close minded certitude. I would describe them as having open minded certitude. INTJ's are very willing to listen to another's viewpoint and to receive correction. It's just that they seem deceptively sure about their all of their ideas regardless of what they are.

:nice:
 

Economica

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The general consensus seems to be that this is a weakness. I disagree. Does it help our social life? Well...no, but it can definately be a strength professionaly (as in...anything that isn't social). Sometimes the appearance of confidence is just as important as actually being confident. This is particularly true for those in leadership positions. Appearing to "flip-flop" on positions doesn't help you at all.

I agree that in a leadership position it is usually imperative to publicly project confidence. (Though the approach does have its limitations, as showcased by a certain president. :whistling:) However, privately - i.e. around those who are close enough to you to not be taken in by the "always right" song-and-dance - be they friends, family, coworkers, subordinates, advisers, whoever - the keeping-up-appearances version of CC can only hurt you.

Plus, I think it is a strength that we are willing to change our position at all. Would it not be even worse to just stick with our original wrong, point of view?

Well, actually, this is precisely what a lot of people think INXJs do. ;)

To recap:

Self-deceiving CC: Refusing to recognize, let alone own up to an error.
Keeping-up-appearances CC: Conceding a point and updating one's opinion, but refusing to acknowledge to others that this is what has occurred.

If the first concept is foreign to you and you don't subject close friends to the second have no qualms subjecting "idiots and people you don't know well" to the second, then perhaps you should have voted differently?
 
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Mycroft

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Jen, I eat my words. Apparently his pulse did go up. :devil:

I wasn't upset at all, I was agreeing. Jennifer had insinuated that she could trot out some posts wherein I came across as a know-it-all. I have absolutely no doubt that she or anyone else so inclined could readily do so. However, it's fallacious to assume that because I sometimes come across as a know-it-all I believe that I am always right; even if Jennifer were to make a small compendium of such posts, it would in no way contradict my assertion that I do not, in fact, believe that I am always right. Hence you were 100% correct when you said that it wouldn't budge me.

What would force me to eat crow and admit that I had contradicted myself is if Jennifer were able to find a post of mine where I had claimed to know everything. As I have made no such claim, she would be unable to do so. This is what I had meant with my previous post although, admittedly, the wording could have been better.
 

Totenkindly

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I wasn't upset at all, I was agreeing. Jennifer had insinuated that she could trot out some posts wherein I came across as a know-it-all. I have absolutely no doubt that she or anyone else so inclined could readily do so. However, it's fallacious to assume that because I sometimes come across as a know-it-all I believe that I am always right; even if Jennifer were to make a small compendium of such posts, it would in no way contradict my assertion that I do not, in fact, believe that I am always right. Hence you were 100% correct when you said that it wouldn't budge me.

What would force me to eat crow and admit that I had contradicted myself is if Jennifer were able to find a post of mine where I had claimed to know everything. As I have made no such claim, she would be unable to do so. This is what I had meant with my previous post although, admittedly, the wording could have been better.

The beautiful thing about all of this is that (since I am P and not J), I was simply making a very off-the-cuff joke of which I promptly forgot about afterwards, mostly indifferent to how accurate the content was -- but my impromptu action still generated a great deal of information that I can now use to further increase my mental model of Mycroft and INTJs in particular!

(I feel like I just walked into the lunchroom and found a large, tasty peanut-butter-creme donut sitting all by its lonely self on the table, waiting for someone to take it home and call it Harold.)

And, besides, I'm too lazy to make the compendium... especially now that you've warned me it would be fruitless in any case. :)
 

Mycroft

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The beautiful thing about all of this is that (since I am P and not J), I was simply making a very off-the-cuff joke of which I promptly forgot about afterwards, mostly indifferent to how accurate the content was -- but my impromptu action still generated a great deal of information that I can now use to further increase my mental model of Mycroft and INTJs in particular!

(I feel like I just walked into the lunchroom and found a large, tasty peanut-butter-creme donut sitting all by its lonely self on the table, waiting for someone to take it home and call it Harold.)

And, besides, I'm too lazy to make the compendium... especially now that you've warned me it would be fruitless in any case. :)

It's all good. One of the things I like most about this board is that it offers me a chance to hone my logic. Believe it or not, when (not if, Lord knows) the day comes that I've irrefutably made a logical error I will own up to it gracefully.

Just out of curiosity, what is your mental image of me?
 

Totenkindly

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It's all good. One of the things I like most about this board is that it offers me a chance to hone my logic. Believe it or not, when (not if, Lord knows) the day comes that I've irrefutably made a logical error I will own up to it gracefully.

Just out of curiosity, what is your mental image of me?

Hmm.. not many of the specifics, because you don't talk about your "outside life" as much... but in general, I see you as a careful, calm, reasoned thinker; mature; accessible; open; trustworthy; someone I very much like and enjoy responding to. I take your posts and their content seriously.

Sort of like your avatar.

(Maybe you should switch to a Marilyn Manson one and see if that impacts my perception.)
 

Mycroft

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You would have made an excellent politician in another life. ;) At any rate, apologies to everyone for hijacking the thread to fish for compliments. Er, carry on!
 

Langrenus

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The question, Mycroft, is have you changed your perception of Jennifer in light of these platitudes, or has your closed-minded certitude precluded even the possibility of such a change occurring? ;)
 

Mycroft

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The question, Mycroft, is have you changed your perception of Jennifer in light of these platitudes, or has your closed-minded certitude precluded even the possibility of such a change occurring? ;)

Nope, I had assessed that she was good people to begin with and was correct because I'm always right.







...OH &'%$$#
 

Rohsiph

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:happy:

I don't have any clear memories of falling into the touched-upon "traps" of INTJ "closed-minded certitude" in the past; however, I have noticed a gradual shift in my willingness to admit when I am wrong since entering college--perhaps suggesting that I used to never do so.

I think that I have largely found my way around such traps, and, hopefully, being aware of how they might appear should mean that I will continue to avoid them :D

I attribute my increased willingness to admit wrongness to a period about a year and a half ago where my thoughts were largely focused on various forms of philosophical skepticism. My current philosophical foundation is now largely rooted in a kind of skepticism, particularly about the nature of certainty when discussing knowledge.

Perhaps of interest: I will often find myself trying to figure out my faults, especially when I think about my friends, and I imagine myself asking friends who I commonly will discuss with them about their own faults (and how to potentially fix them) whether or not they notice any such faults that they might be able to help me with. The one time I actually asked this question, which was before encountering personality theory, I ended up asking my ESFJ friend, and he gave me nothing to work with :doh:

I connect this to the ptgatsby's early reply, along with wondering about how apparent my actual open-mindedness is. Eh.
 
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