INXJ closed-minded certitude

[Economica]

I wasn't upset at all, I was agreeing.

My crack about you getting your pulse up was based on your preemptive refusal to accept any indirect evidence of CC on your part. To me it seemed (and still seems) both gratuitous and unreasonable. Coupled with your declared difficulty taking me seriously with the signature I have, my gut said (and says) that you are in fact smack in the middle of this thread's target audience.

But by all means, prove me wrong. How about sharing your thoughts on the poll results so far, especially the distribution of votes for options 7-10?

 

[meanlittlechimp]

Can the people here who have witnessed the close minded certitiude with INFJs please describe how it happened? Also, can you let us know how many INFJs, you've met this is based on?

I only know 3 well (and can't imagine or have seen any of them exhibiting this behavior) and I would really like to hear other people's experiences on this.

 

[Mycroft]

My crack about you getting your pulse up was based on your preemptive refusal to accept any indirect evidence of CC on your part. To me it seemed (and still seems) both gratuitous and unreasonable. Coupled with your declared difficulty taking me seriously with the signature I have, my gut said (and says) that you are in fact smack in the middle of this thread's target audience.

But by all means, prove me wrong. How about sharing your thoughts on the poll results so far, especially the distribution of votes for options 7-10?

As I've mentioned in the past, with my circle of friends I make it a point not to initiate or engage in argument. My present job is a stepping stone and nothing more, so I abide by a strict "don't rock the boat" policy. As a result the extent to which I may or may not be close-minded never really comes up.

In a broader sense, when I am in Planning Mode I try to be as receptive and open-minded to ideas and suggestions as possible. When it comes to Execution Mode, when all of the wheels are set in motion and it's gentlemen-man-your-posts time, yes, I admittedly do get irked by people who piss and moan about what we could've done better and point out all of the things that we overlooked.

As for responses 7-10, I have no opinion. People think what they think and I have no problem with them doing so as long as it doesn't negatively impact upon my personal plans.

 

[reason]

I am an INTP and I am always right.

(note: always being right does not imply certitude or close-mindedness)

 

[Economica]

As I've mentioned in the past, with my circle of friends I make it a point not to initiate or engage in argument.

That reminds me, you never answered my follow-up question:

You're never argumentative even in the company of people you respect? That would make you different from every INTJ I have ever known. ...Are you quite sure said people would agree to this characterization?

The people I respect are my bishops as opposed to my pawns. Why would I risk alienating them?

How is pursuing arguments going to alienate people who are worthy of respect?

---

In a broader sense, when I am in Planning Mode I try to be as receptive and open-minded to ideas and suggestions as possible.

Suffering from CC does not preclude all acceptance of input from others. CC would instead show in your reaction to input that runs contrary to the beliefs that you generally hold and hence carry with you from project to project. Perhaps you can give us an illustrative example of a time where you modified a general belief as a result of learning from such input from others...?

When it comes to Execution Mode, when all of the wheels are set in motion and it's gentlemen-man-your-posts time, yes, I admittedly do get irked by people who piss and moan about what we could've done better and point out all of the things that we overlooked.

Dismissing unproductive 20/20 hindsight has nothing to do with CC. I defined CC in the OP as refusing to recognize and own up to our errors. Do the people who "piss and moan" ever make you realize that you personally have made an error? If so, do you acknowledge it to them - or do you perhaps accuse them of pissing and moaning?

As for responses 7-10, I have no opinion. People think what they think and I have no problem with them doing so as long as it doesn't negatively impact upon my personal plans.

This is an INTJ first.

 

[Blackwater]

Can the people here who have witnessed the close minded certitiude with INFJs please describe how it happened? Also, can you let us know how many INFJs, you've met this is based on?

I only know 3 well (and can't imagine or have seen any of them exhibiting this behavior) and I would really like to hear other people's experiences on this.

Maybe close-mindedness isn't the most suitable word when it comes the INFJ-kin. That could be why you have trouble recognizing it. What we're talking about in the INFJ is more of a stubbornness; a willingness to stay with a point or an opinion in their heads even after the external situation have proven it wrong or inferior. The difference from their T-kin is that Fe wants to accomodate while the IN_J only sees things its own way. This usually leads to occurances where the INFJ gives its ground but only in a grumling manner, sprinkled with uncertainties. I get that from all the INFJs I know, although, luckyly, my woman is the one who suffers these traits the least

Off topic: Oh yearh and did you know that Jung himself touched upon your theory of subtemperaments in his psyhological types? He says that extrovert are objective and able to adapt in the present situation whereas introverts are programmic and idealistic? - Eigter way, your subtermperament theory is still an asset. Nicely done.

 

[Mycroft]

Suffering from CC does not preclude all acceptance of input from others. CC would instead show in your reaction to input that runs contrary to the beliefs that you generally hold and hence carry with you from project to project.

I understand "beliefs" to be personal values. Personal values are irrational and hence cannot be proven "wrong" by anyone.

Dismissing unproductive 20/20 hindsight has nothing to do with CC. I defined CC in the OP as refusing to recognize and own up to our errors.

Given as every description of the INTJ I've ever read mentions how we are always analyzing our actions to avoid making the same mistakes twice, I don't quite understand why you think an unwillingness to recognize errors is something common amongst INTJs.

...or do you perhaps accuse them of pissing and moaning?

I keep my thoughts to myself. Considering how you seem to feel that you've "read" me, I should think that ought to go without saying.

 

[Economica]

I understand "beliefs" to be personal values. Personal values are irrational and hence cannot be proven "wrong" by anyone.

Let's go by the dictionary definition, shall we? Courtesy of Merriam-Webster:

1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

---

Given as every description of the INTJ I've ever read mentions how we are always analyzing our actions to avoid making the same mistakes twice, I don't quite understand why you think an unwillingness to recognize errors is something common amongst INTJs.

Why'd you think I included the non-INXJ portion of this poll?

I keep my thoughts to myself. Considering how you seem to feel that you've "read" me, I should think that ought to go without saying.

Answering my questions would go a long way toward convincing me that I am being unfair to you reading you incorrectly.

 

[Mycroft]

Answering my questions would go a long way toward convincing me that I am being unfair to you.

I don't recall saying that I thought you were being unfair to me. At any rate, I believe that I have, in fact, answered your questions. If you want different answers, you're going to have to be more specific about what you ask. (Not using your own made-up acronyms would be a good start. I'm not saying that to be antagonistic; at this point I genuinely don't understand why you feel I haven't addressed your queries.)

 

[Economica]

I don't recall saying that I thought you were being unfair to me.

You didn't. I have edited post #48 so as not to let semantics distract from the matter at hand.

At any rate, I believe that I have, in fact, answered your questions. If you want different answers, you're going to have to be more specific about what you ask. (Not using your own made-up acronyms would be a good start. I'm not saying that to be antagonistic; at this point I genuinely don't understand why you feel I haven't addressed your queries.)

CC = Closed-minded Certitude; what this whole thread is about. Yup, I made it up to keep from having to write it again and again.

OP = Original Post. Not one I made up.

That's it, as far as I can see.

The whole point of CC is that one doesn't compute contrary input from others. I will let our readers judge for themselves how many of my questions in post #45 you've adequately answered.

 

[meanlittlechimp]

Maybe close-mindedness isn't the most suitable word when it comes the INFJ-kin. That could be why you have trouble recognizing it. What we're talking about in the INFJ is more of a stubbornness; a willingness to stay with a point or an opinion in their heads even after the external situation have proven it wrong or inferior. The difference from their T-kin is that Fe wants to accomodate while the IN_J only sees things its own way. This usually leads to occurances where the INFJ gives its ground but only in a grumling manner, sprinkled with uncertainties. I get that from all the INFJs I know, although, luckyly, my woman is the one who suffers these traits the least
.

Stubborness... hmm... I guess I could see that as more likely than close mindedness. I'm not saying it doesn't occur, I just have a very limited sample size of 3. It could very well be the case that most of the other INFJs are like this - which is why I wanted to hear specific examples/experiences frrom the folks here who voted this occurred often with them....

 

[meanlittlechimp]

Do most people here find INFJs more guilty of this than ENFJs?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yes, because ENFJs are more objective about their values. You can show them that they are not saintly by pointing out exactly what they did and how according to the values they hold its evil/wrong. Whilst with the INFJs its more difficult to do as their Intuition obscures their Rational(In the Jungian sense), feeling-based judgments.

ENFJs seem to be more certain of their moral rectitude and ENTJs more stubborn, yet an ENTJ could be silenced with hard logic alone, while the INTJ wouldnt because they have their subjective Intuitions to fall back on. And ENFJs could be put in their place by pointing out how exactly what they did wasnt good, whilst the INFJs would be able to escape the conviction by running off into their own, self-created world of Introverted Intuition.

 

[BlackMita]

I tend to think I’m as right as I could possibly be at any given moment, unless there are obvious influences to my attitude, like being angry or upset at the time. There isn’t much of a problem acting as if you are always right, because with dominant Ni, it is somewhat true.

When I have an opinion, it isn’t set in stone. Even as someone is in the middle of explain why I’m wrong, my initial belief is under a subtle stream of revision, becoming more right.

Although I don’t do this at its extreme, I would be the person who, if someone articulates knowledge contrary to my own which I can agree with, I immediately absorb it and respond “Yeah, I know.” It’s not that I was right or ahead from the beginning. Rather, their point was in the back of my mind and had just shifted into clarity upon hearing them say it. It feels like they solidify something I already knew in the abstract (which arguably may not be considered knowing) compelling me to feel I'd known it all along, and had always been right.

In other words, suffering (barely) and working to overcome it.

 

[Mempy]

We INTJs base a lot of our self-esteem on being insightful and decisive, but we are not always right - and that's okay. Making errors (of fact and of judgment) is forgivable. (People don't mind that we are not perfectly oracular. Really! ) Refusing to recognize and own up to our errors, however, costs us serious points. And it's idiotic, really, given that we aren't fooling anyone, just alienating them. Some strategists!

I think this is true for everyone. I've met closed-mindedness in all people, including myself.

INTJs and INFJs have a tendency of pointing out things I've never considered and making me feel like an ass. But lots of people do that to me, not just INXJs. I wouldn't say INXJs have a closed-minded certitude. At least, no more than the next type. I think it's just certitude, confidence, whatever.

I know one INTJ who is open-minded toward just about everything, but he just will not budge on his opinions of homosexuality. I think everyone has their rubs. And for everyone at one time or another, it's hard to have to recant a statement on a discussion board, to admit you stuck your foot in your mouth, or to just admit to plain being wrong. It comes and goes, for me. That's on and off discussion boards.

 

[Mempy]

I tend to think I’m as right as I could possibly be at any given moment, unless there are obvious influences to my attitude, like being angry or upset at the time. There isn’t much of a problem acting as if you are always right, because with dominant Ni, it is somewhat true.

In other words, suffering (barely) and working to overcome it.

Haha, and then I read this.

 

[htb]

0 REM VERISIMILITUDE
10 IF ITISWHAT$="IT IS" THEN LET A$="IT IS"
20 END

 

[RDF]

The following is all off-the-cuff (based on amateur reading and personal impressions), but I thought I would put in my two cents. (Warning: I'm sort of still working in the vein of Freudian psychology from my posts this last weekend.)

I tend to see iNtuition as pattern-seeking behavior: Taking elements and weaving and juxtaposing them until correspondences are found.

This process is more visible in the Dominant Ne types (ENFP and ENTP), who like to juggle ideas in order to view the interactions between ideas. In a sense, these types are the ultimate brainstormers. They pick up, play with, and discard ideas with lightening speed. The downside, of course, can be a casual attitude toward ideas or superficiality.

Extraverted iNtuiting

By comparison, the "pattern-seeking" process is much less visible in the Dominant Ni types (INFJ and INTJ). But the PersonalityPage.com website describes Ni as gathering information and weaving it into a web or framework of interconnected ideas. Again, there is a sense of weaving and juxtaposing.

However, due to the "framework" nature of their internal landscape, Dominant Ni apparently does less "juggling" than Dominant Ne. The framework of Dominant Ni is more static than the extraverted juggling of Dominant Ne.

Introverted iNtuition is sort of like a framework for understanding that exists in the mind. As something is perceived, it is melded into the existing intuitive framework. If an entirely new piece of information is perceived by the Introverted iNtuitive, that person must redefine their entire framework of reference.

INTJ Personal Growth

I suspect that this framework gives Dominant Ni types a sense of "certitude" about their values and ideas. Due to the interconnectedness of their internal values and ideas, any one idea or value is supported and validated by all the other ideas and values in the framework and thus has a "feeling" of certainty to it. By the same token, Dominant Ni may resist new information that forces it to change its ideas. Dominant Ni may find new information jarring. Due to the interconnectedness of the framework, weaving in a new piece of information can mean changing up the entire framework. Thus, the flip side of certitude may be unwillingness to consider opposing ideas.

(Comparing INFJs to INTJs, I tend to think that this kind of certitude is mitigated in INFJs by their Auxiliary Fe as a factor orienting them to other people rather than to abstract ideas as in INTJs, i.e., anchoring INFJs more in reality. But I tend to see INFJs as occasionally becoming rigid about certain ideas and values as well.)

On a tangent going out even further into off-the-cuff territory:

Just for the heck of it, I also tend to see Dominant Ni associated with the Freudian concept of "magical thinking." That is, we all tend to interpret the outside world in terms of our internal mental landscape. According to Dominant Ni, ideas make sense by virtue of how well they fit into a framework and interact in juxtaposition with other things. So when Dominant Ni views the outside world, it tends to look for things in correlation to other things: ideas in juxtaposition, opposing objects in balance, correlation equaling causation, etc. This is at the heart of "magical thinking."

Magical thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

magical thinking

Magical thinking is at the base of many superstitions such as astrology, and INTJs in particular are sometimes characterized as prone to superstitions as part of their willingness to pursue offbeat ideas. Magical thinking is also at the base of schizotypal personality disorders, and INTJs sometimes get tagged with a tendency in that direction as well. (Again, I think this is somewhat mitigated in INFJs due to their Auxiliary Fe as a factor orienting them to other people, i.e., anchoring them more in reality.)

Astrology, in its traditional form, is a type of divination based on the theory that the positions and movements of celestial bodies (stars, planets, sun, and moon) at the time of birth profoundly influence a person's life. In its psychological form, astrology is a type of New Age therapy used for self-understanding and personality analysis (astrotherapy). In both forms, it is a manifestation of magical thinking.

astrology

Just my quick two cents, purely off-the-cuff and based on amateur interest in these subjects.

FL

 

[The Ü™]

Schizoids seem to correspond more with Ni, actually, because they're preoccupied with introspection and fantasy in addition to lack of desire to connect with others, the latter of which makes it correspond more specifically to INTJ and INTP.

Paranoid personality disorder seems to directly correspond with Ne, since it's outwardly directed.

I actually think that Schizotypal is the halfway mark between Schizoid and Paranoid personality disorders, making it correspond to either Ni or Ne.

In short, Ns are more likely to be diagnosed with the eccentric personality disorders.

I think the INFJ and INFP types are more likely to correspond with Avoidant personality disorder.

 

[RDF]

Schizoids seem to correspond more with Ni, actually, because they're preoccupied with introspection and fantasy in addition to lack of desire to connect with others, the latter of which makes it correspond more specifically to INTJ and INTP.

Paranoid personality disorder seems to directly correspond with Ne, since it's outwardly directed.

I actually think that Schizotypal is the halfway mark between Schizoid and Paranoid personality disorders, making it correspond to either Ni or Ne.

In short, Ns are more likely to be diagnosed with the eccentric personality disorders.

I think the INFJ and INFP types are more likely to correspond with Avoidant personality disorder.

Well, first off, Schizotypal PD is the one that's closest in symptoms to Schizophrenia, including ideas of reference (the stage of thinking just prior to delusions) and "magical thinking".

By contrast, Schizoid PD is much more benign. Some analysts consider Schizoid PD similar in appearance to Avoidant PD, with the distinction that AvPD sufferers feel a high degree of anxiety while Schizoid PD sufferers may in fact be quite content with their situation.

No offense, but I personally find INTJ thinking very different from INTP thinking. Taken them to their respective extremes, INTJs can pursue some very strange and bizarre paths of thought and still retain full confidence that they have the truth by the balls; while INTPs in fact think relatively normally but have much lower confidence and/or simply find interacting with the world more trouble than it's worth.

Hence I tend to see INTJ thinking more closely related to Schizotypal and INTP thinking more closely related to Schizoid.

Here is a description of Schizotypal PD (note the second bulleted item):

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (American Psychiatric Association, 1994, pg. 645) describes Schizotypal Personality Disorder as a pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

- ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference);

- odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations);

- unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions;

- odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped);

- suspiciousness or paranoid ideation;

- inappropriate or constricted affect;

- behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;

- lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives;

- excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self.

The disorder does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, another Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder.

PTypes - Schizotypal Personality Disorder Criteria

In short, I pretty much agree with the way Dave Kelly relates MBTI to PDs (see link below). For example, I like his linking of INFP to Histrionic PD rather than Avoidant PD (as others tend to do). It's a toss-up; there are both histrionic INFPs and avoidant INFPs. But comparing INFJs and INFPs, I would agree that INFPs are by far the bigger drama queens and hence the better candidates for Histrionic PD.

And I can see INFJs as Avoidant-leaning when one remembers that the distress level is very high for Avoidant PD - similar to the distress level for Schizotypal PD.

PTypes - Correspondence of PTypes, Keirsey, Enneagram, Psychiatric, and Astrological Types

FL