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using shadow patterns to determine type

Grayscale

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it occurred to me recently that someone could determine their type fairly easily with just a basic understanding of the dichotomy patterns by comparing how their behavior changes when they are in a happy, emotionally healthy state vs. unhappy, depressed, and generally emotionally unhealthy.

that is to say, if you follow the pattern your behavior follows when transitioning between the two states, one could determine their type, no?
 

Eric B

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Just like I was discussing in the Ti con Fi thread, people thought I preferred Fi, and it does seem to be strong, but realizing it was more negative, while Ti was more positive, suggested Ti was what's really "ego-compatible" ("primary" four), and Fi more ego-dystonic ("shadow" or other four). So yes, in that sense, the shadows can help determine your type.

Even in determining I/E (the least drastic of the dichotomies), it seems like Ne is strongest, and thus dominant, but that would make Se, 8th place and "destructive". But it doesn't seem that way, but rather fits the 7th, "deceiving/comedic" better. Te fits Opposing (5th) better also. So this led me to see my last CP results as accurate, with Ne as technically strongest, but still in an auxiliary role.
 

Grayscale

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So yes, in that sense, the shadows can help determine your type.

im aware that types (even shadows) correspond to a CP order, but it's irrelevant.

for example, it could be as simple as asking whether someone tends to move towards extroverted traits when they are in an emotionally unhealthy state or towards introverted traits.

the reason this is useful is because despite the fact that everyone will have a soft value somewhere on the spectrum, they should theoretically correspond to a set type and CP order which is not as flexible as determining where within the spectrum someone would fall. it is often subjective at what point someone should be considered introverted and extroverted, so by simply mapping which direction they move to positive/healthy <=> negative/unhealthy behavior, the initial value which previously only existed as a relative value to other people can be determined as long as the concept of shadow types is legitimate. i just use I/E as an example, this could be applied to any of the dichotomies.
 
B

beyondaurora

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I have been looking into this a lot lately. I think it should be used in conjunction with conventional typing methods to validate results or bring other options to light.
 

Giggly

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What are shadow patterns?
 

NewEra

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Shadow functions occurs when someone is unhappy... or stressed?
 

Grayscale

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What are shadow patterns?

Shadow functions occurs when someone is unhappy... or stressed?

supposedly, when someone is in an unhealthy emotional state they take on a negative form of their opposite type.

considering this, what i am saying is that by charting whether someone seems to take on more I/E, S/N, T/F, or J/P qualities when in this state we could isolate the inaccuracy of typing that is a result of relative values.

that is, if person A is more introverted than person B, they both may incorrectly conclude that A is an introvert and B is an extrovert because all they have to consider is how they compare to each other. according to the idea of shadow functions, if person A become more introverted when in an unhealthy emotional state that would suggest they are actually an extrovert and that the person was typed incorrectly originally.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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In my experience... usually a person under stress will display inappropriate use of their shadow functions. This is primarily the 6th (according to the cognitive ordering of best developed vs weakest functions which I don't believe in).

To explain the ordering
ISTP: Ti (1) Se (2) Ni (3) Fe (4) Te (5) Si (6) Ne (7) Fi (8)

So according to this ordering, a stressed out ISTP will tend to sit and brood over their problems. (Si) They get trapped in the past... either they things they've done wrong or should have done but didn't do.

Just a check grayscale, does that sound fair? I'm extrapolating from INFJ's experience with their 6th (Fi)...

Sort of like the chinese saying... the fox always show its tail... It's a good way of typing even for well developed individuals.
 

Grayscale

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absolutely... i tend to brood and replay things in my head over and over to analyze where i went wrong.

admittedly what i said originally was just a thought, your approach could also be plausible for the same reasons... wouldn't that narrow it down to 2 types (F/T) do you have any ideas for a similar method to narrow that down?
 

Totenkindly

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This was the original premise of Naomi Quenk's "Beside Ourselves" (which was later reprinted under a different name, I think) -- she focuses on shadow functions of each type and how they usually play out.
 

Eric B

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So is this Quenk book the definitive printed source of knowledge for the shadows? (Since Beebe's knowledge is imparted mainly through lectures). Is Quenk's model the same as Beebe? Is it based on Beebe? Or might Beebe be based on her?

(Just checked the library, and they only have the MBTI book by her),
 

527468

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Do these shadow types have to correlate with original theory, of say the INTJ, being Ne Ti Fe Si? or can they be the shadows of my strongest functions, which are different?
 
G

garbage

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Do these shadow types have to correlate with original theory, of say the INTJ, being Ne Ti Fe Si? or can they be the shadows of my strongest functions, which are different?

I'd say that if the model is off based on your four strongest functions, the even less reliable shadow type is even more off..

But I'd think that your shadow would be the functions you don't use. It just makes sense, since the shadow by definition is undiscovered and hidden personality traits.
 

INTJMom

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it occurred to me recently that someone could determine their type fairly easily with just a basic understanding of the dichotomy patterns by comparing how their behavior changes when they are in a happy, emotionally healthy state vs. unhappy, depressed, and generally emotionally unhealthy.

that is to say, if you follow the pattern your behavior follows when transitioning between the two states, one could determine their type, no?
I wish it was that accurate of a science.
I guess when someone has enough experience with people,
they perhaps get good at recognizing shadows, too.

I will say this, though, I am so critical of myself, that the way I finally decided what my type is was by comparing the negative traits instead of the positive ones.
 

nightning

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This was the original premise of Naomi Quenk's "Beside Ourselves" (which was later reprinted under a different name, I think) -- she focuses on shadow functions of each type and how they usually play out.
Will have to look up her book some day. This is new to me. :yes:

absolutely... i tend to brood and replay things in my head over and over to analyze where i went wrong.

admittedly what i said originally was just a thought, your approach could also be plausible for the same reasons... wouldn't that narrow it down to 2 types (F/T) do you have any ideas for a similar method to narrow that down?
Well that was based solely on observation from people around me. I find that it works well for Is... IJs in particular. I haven't looked at it closely for Es (don't usually interact with extroverts much...)

Using that tends to give you 8 categories, since 2 types share each function.
e.g. ISFJ INFJ or ISTP ISFP

That makes it easier to select their type, since the difference is in their dominant function.

Edit: just re-read what you said and realize I'm repeating what you've said already... (Experiments are getting to me)
The only saving grace with the method is that it's relatively easy in identifying their dominant. Under normal circumstances, the individual will alway use their dominant function is some fashion regardless of what other functions they paired it with. It's impossible to block the dominant. (I tried) So hopefully that'll give you some idea as an outside observer.

I wish it was that accurate of a science.
I guess when someone has enough experience with people,
they perhaps get good at recognizing shadows, too.

I will say this, though, I am so critical of myself, that the way I finally decided what my type is was by comparing the negative traits instead of the positive ones.
How I wish as well there's a method for type like there is for math. It's an "art", I find that I use multiple methods to arrive at my answer.

This shadow approach is handy, but takes a lot of work. Sometimes it takes a while to get the opportunity to see the person's behavior under stress. I'm not the ENTP that'll use deliberate manipulation to experimentally get an answer. Although I suppose if you really wanted to, you can "test" them.
 

NewEra

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Will have to look up her book some day. This is new to me. :yes:


Well that was based solely on observation from people around me. I find that it works well for Is... IJs in particular. I haven't looked at it closely for Es (don't usually interact with extroverts much...)

Using that tends to give you 8 categories, since 2 types share each function.
e.g. ISFJ INFJ or ISTP ISFP

That makes it easier to select their type, since the difference is in their dominant function.

Edit: just re-read what you said and realize I'm repeating what you've said already... (Experiments are getting to me)
The only saving grace with the method is that it's relatively easy in identifying their dominant. Under normal circumstances, the individual will alway use their dominant function is some fashion regardless of what other functions they paired it with. It's impossible to block the dominant. (I tried) So hopefully that'll give you some idea as an outside observer.


How I wish as well there's a method for type like there is for math. It's an "art", I find that I use multiple methods to arrive at my answer.

This shadow approach is handy, but takes a lot of work. Sometimes it takes a while to get the opportunity to see the person's behavior under stress. I'm not the ENTP that'll use deliberate manipulation to experimentally get an answer. Although I suppose if you really wanted to, you can "test" them.

So when under stress, which type does the person act like... like for an ENFJ, would they act like an INFP (take out the outside 2 letters), or an ESTJ (take out the middle 2 letters) or an ISTP (take out all 4 letters)?

Or does it differ with each person?
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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ENFJ => Fe Ni Se Ti Fi Ne Si Te.

Inferior would be Ti, 6th would be Ne (for my little pet theory). Those two would be what you expect to show up badly under stress.
 

heart

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What about looking at the types of people who take the easiest offense to you and seeing if there is a pattern there or not? Could this help a person see their shadows most clearly? (Just wondering aloud. If it bothers you that I did, maybe that says something about you! :D)
 

NewEra

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When a person is under stress, do they just use their shadow functions positively or negatively? Like would a person use.. let's say... Ne in a negative fashion or in a positive fashion?
 
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