Now Hear This

[NewEra]

Types don't "have" anything.

I'm tired of hearing "ENTPs have Fe and Ti" or "ISTJ has Fi"

It doesn't work that way you guys.
It's not about posession.

Then how does it work? I really want to know.

 

[GZA]

While we're at it, there's no types either. Your personal problems are not because you are whatever type, or because your "function" is underdeveloped, it's because of you.

 

[Jeffster]

Sorry guys, Jeffster and the peanut gallery ruined it for everyone.

Yes, my two posts completely erased your point. That's how powerful I am. Excuse me, I need to go bench press a car real quick. Be back later.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Sorry guys, Jeffster and the peanut gallery ruined it for everyone.

Who on earth are you apologizing to?

(Actually, I shant tie you down to the earth.)

Who are you apologizing to?

 

[iwakar]

Know what?
Nevermind.

You guys can just wallow in your insipid fruitlessness for all I care.

Go ahead and close the thread.

I could, but I won't.


KNOW THYSELF BROTHER! :dons religious attire:

 

[Nocapszy]

Nocapszy, I think you are on to something and you should stick to your guns.

You know, it really isn't that I'm on to something. I'm indisputably correct.

However, you made some pretty strong claims and then failed to back them up, so it was hard to take your post seriously.

Fine. Don't take it seriously.
Ultimately it's going to boil down to me knowing the truth, and everyone who demands rigor from all claim makers being know-nots. Who's the one with the real problem?

Yes, my two posts completely erased your point. That's how powerful I am. Excuse me, I need to go bench press a car real quick. Be back later.

Gross misinterpretation.

I just like being spiteful.

Who on earth are you apologizing to?

(Actually, I shant tie you down to the earth.)

Who are you apologizing to?

Well definitely not you since you didn't bother to read the thread.

 

[Athenian200]

Uhh... Nocapszy? Couldn't you at least tell me if I got your point in the post I made earlier? Please? I thought I did, but I'm not sure.

I made that post before they ruined the thread, so I think maybe it should fall under a grandfather clause or something.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Either I've failed to grasp something... but aren't preference of functions the backbones of MBTI?

In a sense MBTI types do own them (them being their strongest style).

 

[Magic Poriferan]

So ultimately, we can just turn this into a metaphysical discussion about what it means to have something and whether or not a mental process is a thing that can be had.

 

[Nocapszy]

No. It's not a discussion.

I'm stating the fact that you can't have something that isn't, and since thats' just what type involves, we should stop speaking that way because it's misleading in that people are tricked into thinking type is actually substantial.

 

[Domino]

Types don't "have" anything.

I'm tired of hearing "ENTPs have Fe and Ti" or "ISTJ has Fi"

It doesn't work that way you guys.
It's not about posession.

No possession? Really? *grumbles* You're ruining the ENFJ fun, pal.

Nocap obviously has more J than he's letting on.

Also, rabies.

 

[Virtual ghost]

For a sometime I am thinkig about posting this.


I think that only real thing that is wrong with MBTI are functions. To be exact function order in each type. I think it would be better if functions are treated as something like the ennangram.

I mean this forum is full of people who don't fit in the model. (myself included)

Also this model has some caracteristics that are somewhat aspurd.

For example INTJs have Se are fourth function but ISTJ have don't Se at all in first four. What would mean that INTJs are better in Se then a sensor.
Unless you say that ISTJ Se is still stronger then INTJ Se, even if that if is a function that is not in the first four for them.

Another example is in ESFPs and ENFPs
They don't have Fe in first four but from what I have seen they have a fair amount of it. How it is possible that ESFPs are so much "fun, fun" type but their Fe is nothing special? In a way INTPs should have stronger Fe then them. What I don't think it is the case. Another thing is that they have Te. It is somewhat apsurd that that extroverted feelers have stronger Te then Fe.


I think that this is enough examples to get my point. The fact that functions are distributed so orderly shows that something is wrong. Since it is very rare that such a order exists in nature.

Questions, opinions, comments?

 

[garbage]

Questions, opinions, comments?

Agreed.. the models try to explain too much sometimes. The primary and secondary functions seem to be the only ones that are consistent across those of a particular type, and that's pretty much just by definition.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I think that only real thing that is wrong with MBTI are functions. To be exact function order in each type. I think it would be better if functions are treated as something like the ennangram.

I mean this forum is full of people who don't fit in the model. (myself included)

I agree. However, you have one misinterpretation here.

For example INTJs have Se are fourth function but ISTJ have don't Se at all in first four. What would mean that INTJs are better in Se then a sensor.
Unless you say that ISTJ Se is still stronger then INTJ Se, even if that if is a function that is not in the first four for them.

Another example is in ESFPs and ENFPs
They don't have Fe in first four but from what I have seen they have a fair amount of it. How it is possible that ESFPs are so much "fun, fun" type but their Fe is nothing special? In a way INTPs should have stronger Fe then them. What I don't think it is the case. Another thing is that they have Te. It is somewhat apsurd that that extroverted feelers have stronger Te then Fe.

The tertiary and auxilliary functions are not actually supposed to be your third and fourth place functions, they are supposed to be your 7th and 8th. So primary and secondary are the top layer, and tertiary (misleadingly named) and inferior are the bottom layer, and the four inbetween usually aren't mentioned. The reason for this is based on the crazy shadow theory and how your weakest functions bubble up and often have more influence than any of the four above them in times of stress (that was a very sloppy simplification, by the way). So technically, that the INTJ has Se listed in the four and ISTJ doesn't, actually implies that the ISTJ does have more Se.

But ultimately...

Agreed.. the models try to explain too much sometimes. The primary and secondary functions seem to be the only ones that are consistent across those of a particular type, and that's pretty much just by definition.

...This is still right, as far as I can tell. With my design of the Enneagram, I proposed a method for finding an order of preference, but me and Evan did both conclude that assuming that the full order could be charted out is just unreasonable. I might even go so far to say that the first three and the last three can be determined, but the middle three definitely cannot.

The MBTI has a similar problem, though I'd say it's slightly worse, since I don't believe you could even predict what the least used function is. As greed said, the first two functions match, but essentially by definition. It's analytically true. The remaining function orders, however, are supposed to be included as something synthetically true, but there is no logical warrant for including them.

Again, we can go to the Enneagram as an example. Me and Evan scrapped the lines of disintegration and integration because they seemed to be wild assertions. It was hard to figure out what other part of the system really supported that part of the system (and if there's no inter-support, it's almost definitively not a system). Which brings up perhaps the biggest flaw with the lines. They described a transformative process. To my understanding, these type systems can never be trusted to do that. They can measure things, they can described them as the measurement showed, but both are static reports, they are not speculation about transitions. The Enneagram lines, and also the MBTI shadow functions, attempt to predict the nature of a transformative process, and when it does that, it immedietely stops being descriptive and becomes perscriptive, which, you know, means it basically becomes zodiac. Assessments about the remaining functions are essentially divination, like numerology, or Freud's weird-ass psycho-analysis.

EDIT: I've just realized this post is a mire of pedantic and esoteric terminology.