Testing a few thoughts on MBTI

[INTJMom]

...
Oh yeah..

"Excuse me, you're irrelevant. Please take me to your leader and be quiet about it."

Okay, so it's not just my imagination then.

Only you...

Was he like "Who's this derranged person phoning me up? Didn't I write a book of instructions?" ?

Actually, he was quite nice and polite.
And we figured out the missing piece of the puzzle.

 

[Xander]

Actually, he was quite nice and polite.
And we figured out the missing piece of the puzzle.

First off, congrats on having the 500,000 post! (Just noticed )

Did the conversation go "No Ms Mom, explaining the logical process and ramifications doesn't tend to work on children of that age" ?

 

[INTJMom]

First off, congrats on having the 500,000 post! (Just noticed )

Ha! Cool.

Did the conversation go "No Ms Mom, explaining the logical process and ramifications doesn't tend to work on children of that age" ?

Do you really want to know?
I mean it's your thread. I guess you can derail it if you want to.
I actually learned a very important principle from that conversation,
one which I have never forgotten, and one which is useful to many people,
and so because of its usefulness I will share it:
You cannot teach a child who will not obey.

This explains why the school systems are in the mess they're in,
not just why my daughter was not learning how to toilet herself.

Anyway, the author of the book told me that my daughter was not obeying me.
First I had to get my daughter to do what I said,
and then I could teach her to toilet herself.
He was right.
I did.
And she did.

And I remembered that principle throughout my mothering years.
It worked in many other applications through the years.

I wouldn't be surprised if it worked with dogs, too.


btw: she was 3 years old at the time

 

[Venom]

Theory of extraverted judgment functions and their relevance.

Is it true that Te indicates thinking which desires resolution? in other words would say an ENTJ desire their thinking to be resolved but not necessarily their feelings?

-------------

Another thought, my father once referred to a girl as being an ISFJ with an "internalised F". Now upon pursuing the concept he explained that this was where the usual care paid to other's wants and desires is focused more on her own wants and desires and so unlike most of her type she is selfish and seemingly unaware of any importance to what others want to do.

I'm theorising that this is an issue that would affect any extraverted judgment function. Ergo a Te predominant person may end up acting with internalised T which would lead to a well organised internal world with strict definitions even if their externalised behaviour is seemingly flexible.

ENTJ here. and yes, i do that a lot. i actaully spent a good part of winter break hashing out my "world view" (ie morality, free will, what there is and isnt, defining hard to define things like love, emotion, beauty, my vision/purpose, etc) because i like things like that clearly defined.

in the past year or so i've also began to organize the physical world much more (tertiary Se maybe?), but i've always been seeking organization in "my head"...at least, as organized as a Ni person can be

 

[INTJMom]

Theory of extraverted judgment functions and their relevance.

Is it true that Te indicates thinking which desires resolution? in other words would say an ENTJ desire their thinking to be resolved but not necessarily their feelings?

According to this page:
The 16 Type Patterns
The two types with Te in the 1st position are ENTJ and ESTJ.
Since closure is a function of J and both of those types are J, I would say yes...
Te desires resolution, at least in those two types who are primary Te users.

Those types with Te in 2nd position are ISTJ and INTJ, so that principle would hold true for them also.

-------------

Another thought, my father once referred to a girl as being an ISFJ with an "internalised F". Now upon pursuing the concept he explained that this was where the usual care paid to other's wants and desires is focused more on her own wants and desires and so unlike most of her type she is selfish and seemingly unaware of any importance to what others want to do.

I know your dad is quite trustworthy with determining people's types, so I won't argue that point, but it seems to me that once we see a person who is acting so far outside of the scope of the norm for her type, I don't think type alone can explain things. A selfish ISFJ is an anomaly. It's not even typical behavior when they're in their shadow. Something seems wrong here. Either she's not really an ISFJ, or she's not really being entirely as selfish as your dad perceived her to be. There has to be external factors somewhere that are not being taken into account.

Maybe the ISFJ with the inward-turned F was actually a shadow of her actual type?
It's confounding.

We're missing part of the picture. Did your dad observe this selfish behavior or did she come to him complaining of it herself? In what way was it selfish?
Was she being stubbornly immovable and it LOOKED like selfishness?
Now we're getting somewhere because that IS typical shadow behavior for the ISFJ.

I'm theorising that this is an issue that would affect any extraverted judgment function. Ergo a Te predominant person may end up acting with internalised T which would lead to a well organised internal world with strict definitions even if their externalised behaviour is seemingly flexible.

Not so fast, Kimosabee.

You know I just started reading Jung, so I only know enough to be dangerous, as they say, but this is what I keep thinking about that:
Jung said:

"... because in every pronounced type there is a special tendency to compensate the one-sidedness of that type, a tendency which is biologically purposive since it strives constantly to maintain the psychic equilibrium." Psychological Type, C.G. Jung, paragraph 3.

And now that I see it in writing, I have no idea why that kept bothering me...

Ah. I remember.
As in the case with your ISFJ, if she was going through her life being Fe instead of Fi, then there's no way her psyche would be balanced. It's unnatural. It can't happen.

Jung dealt with emotionally unhealthy people for over 30 years, and even they strive for "psychic equilibrium".

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction... even in the personality.

There. That's my current stance.

 

[Xander]

You cannot teach a child who will not obey.

Simple and yet so true.

There's none so blind as those who don't wish to see. It's as true when you're 3 as when you're 103.

 

[Xander]

ENTJ here. and yes, i do that a lot. i actaully spent a good part of winter break hashing out my "world view" (ie morality, free will, what there is and isnt, defining hard to define things like love, emotion, beauty, my vision/purpose, etc) because i like things like that clearly defined.

in the past year or so i've also began to organize the physical world much more (tertiary Se maybe?), but i've always been seeking organization in "my head"...at least, as organized as a Ni person can be

Is this because you cannot control what you wish to though or because you've got too much time on your hands?

It seems like instead of organising people and things (extraverted) you're organising yourself which I'd say is quite introverted.

 

[Xander]

I know your dad is quite trustworthy with determining people's types, so I won't argue that point, but it seems to me that once we see a person who is acting so far outside of the scope of the norm for her type, I don't think type alone can explain things. A selfish ISFJ is an anomaly. It's not even typical behavior when they're in their shadow. Something seems wrong here. Either she's not really an ISFJ, or she's not really being entirely as selfish as your dad perceived her to be. There has to be external factors somewhere that are not being taken into account.

Maybe the ISFJ with the inward-turned F was actually a shadow of her actual type?
It's confounding.

If we display the capacity to operate in this "shadow" mode then what is confusing about operating contrary to one's type more often? This particular subject was spoilt from day 1 and lacked a father figure. All she knows is that tantrums will get her way in the end so that is all she does.

It would be more contrary to do otherwise in my opinion (from the standpoint of evolution of behaviour).

We're missing part of the picture. Did your dad observe this selfish behavior or did she come to him complaining of it herself? In what way was it selfish?
Was she being stubbornly immovable and it LOOKED like selfishness?
Now we're getting somewhere because that IS typical shadow behavior for the ISFJ.

It was a further evaluation having previously analysed her type whilst she was relaxed and in a good mood. The additional information was fed to him by myself and that was his prognosis. I'm simply extrapolating as he evades doing so himself.

Not so fast, Kimosabee.

You know I just started reading Jung, so I only know enough to be dangerous, as they say, but this is what I keep thinking about that:
Jung said:

"... because in every pronounced type there is a special tendency to compensate the one-sidedness of that type, a tendency which is biologically purposive since it strives constantly to maintain the psychic equilibrium." Psychological Type, C.G. Jung, paragraph 3.

Me thinks he should have put the weed down for a little longer before writing that...

And now that I see it in writing, I have no idea why that kept bothering me...

Ah. I remember.
As in the case with your ISFJ, if she was going through her life being Fe instead of Fi, then there's no way her psyche would be balanced. It's unnatural. It can't happen.

Err... she is Fe. Sure she has Fi times but by and large she appears to prefer Fe.. hence she's an FJ (or the other way around if you prefer).

Jung dealt with emotionally unhealthy people for over 30 years, and even they strive for "psychic equilibrium".

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction... even in the personality.

There. That's my current stance.

'Strive for' does not equal 'move toward'.

 

[Chris_in_Orbit]

I don't get the whole mid-life crisis thing. When my cousin was 5, he was happier than ever.

Either this was completely morbid or I misunderstood it.

 

[INTJMom]

Either this was completely morbid or I misunderstood it.

I thought it was a mis-type.
I thought it was supposed to read "50".
It makes more sense that way, anyway.

 

[Venom]

Is this because you cannot control what you wish to though or because you've got too much time on your hands?

It seems like instead of organising people and things (extraverted) you're organising yourself which I'd say is quite introverted.

i was on month long winter break and did most of the heavy reading in a one week period on the beach (vacation)...so yes, i had way too much time on my hands . I would also say that i cant yet control what i wish to control... they only let you be in charge of so much when you're this young. If you saw me planning, scheming organizing for my job this summer (ill be runnin shit! ) my extroverted'ness would be more obvious.

it could also be better described by enneagram. type 8's move towards 5 when they are in a rut and trying to think things through...

 

[INTJMom]

If we display the capacity to operate in this "shadow" mode then what is confusing about operating contrary to one's type more often? This particular subject was spoilt from day 1 and lacked a father figure. All she knows is that tantrums will get her way in the end so that is all she does.

It would be more contrary to do otherwise in my opinion (from the standpoint of evolution of behaviour).

It was a further evaluation having previously analysed her type whilst she was relaxed and in a good mood. The additional information was fed to him by myself and that was his prognosis. I'm simply extrapolating as he evades doing so himself.

I don't know. I guess I have nothing else to say.

Me thinks he should have put the weed down for a little longer before writing that...

I burst out laughing on that one!

Err... she is Fe. Sure she has Fi times but by and large she appears to prefer Fe.. hence she's an FJ (or the other way around if you prefer).

Right. I got my directions mixed up.
I don't know how a person can appear to be Fe and also appear to be entirely selfish. I shall have to evaluate her for myself.

'Strive for' does not equal 'move toward'.

Uh. Yes. It does.

 

[Athenian200]

1.
What type is most prone to unresolved feelings?

ENTJ? With F turned inward and a direct approach would that lead to feeling things but keeping them all locked up?

INTP? Externalised F leading to feelings which need expressing or resolving but lacking the extraverted nature to DO something about them?

I'd think ENTJ out of the two, actually. I have a feeling the inferior Fe would result in expression of such feelings in a negative way, which would resolve them... although probably not in a good way. Inferior Fi would mean that they just keep building, and that they couldn't really come out. Although ESTJ seems like they might have it worse.

2.
I'm probably on the money here but an EJ should be the paragon of J and an EP the paragon of P, right?

I mean to others the primary function is more obvious and "underlined" is it not?

I would agree completely. I would say that Introverts tend to have a more "diluted" J/P tendency because the function they show isn't the same as their internal nature, yet it's still the same form of perception an extraverted version of the type uses. So Introverts resemble their Extraverted counterpart in many ways, yet are very different in their primary nature.

3.
A good way of recognising types...

EJ will be prone to leaving people with no illusion as to either what they think or how they feel about something. Possibly with a notable "ghost image" of either not feeling the need to resolve the opposite so an ETJ would not feel it necessary to resolve their feelings and an EFJ not feel it necessary to gain closure on their thoughts.

I think this makes sense, too. Although Es are probably more open about that in general, I think an EJ would be more blunt and unwilling to obscure.

--------------------
Just looking for a little feedback here. I'm working on structuring some basic guidelines on types so that a more simplistic map can be drawn for how to begin typing people via observation rather than the more prevalent testing methods.

That's a good idea. I'll be waiting to see what you come up with. It looks like everyone is extending the theory in their own way now. Creativity is coming into play. Very good.

 

[Xander]

i was on month long winter break and did most of the heavy reading in a one week period on the beach (vacation)...so yes, i had way too much time on my hands . I would also say that i cant yet control what i wish to control... they only let you be in charge of so much when you're this young. If you saw me planning, scheming organizing for my job this summer (ill be runnin shit! ) my extroverted'ness would be more obvious.

it could also be better described by enneagram. type 8's move towards 5 when they are in a rut and trying to think things through...

Too many ESTJs? I'd love to see the degree of ENTJ smackdown laid upon some of the systems over there. You must be positively itching to change just a few things...

 

[Xander]

Right. I got my directions mixed up.
I don't know how a person can appear to be Fe and also appear to be entirely selfish. I shall have to evaluate her for myself.

Imagine an ENFJ on a crusade for their own rights... they can often stray into selfish behaviour especially if they don't require positive feedback.

Uh. Yes. It does.

No.. it implies they are making progress but is only actually making progress if they are striving in the right "direction".

I'd have thought an INTJ would understand this

 

[INTJMom]

Imagine an ENFJ on a crusade for their own rights... they can often stray into selfish behaviour especially if they don't require positive feedback.

So perhaps she is actually an ENFJ.

No.. it implies they are making progress but is only actually making progress if they are striving in the right "direction".

I'd have thought an INTJ would understand this

The "striving for" in this case is an unconscious biological action and therefore cannot go in the "wrong" direction.

 

[Xander]

So perhaps she is actually an ENFJ.

Nope. That's her other half. She's far too introverted and can't see the pattern for the tartan paint most days.

She's prone to the "right now" syndrome of a sensor more so than the lost in a mire of information. Oh and having tried to follow her clues in roleplay... definitely an S. What she considers as simple is often reliant on many contextual pieces of information which she never gave. It's totally specific to her construct to and lacks any kind of real parallel.

The "striving for" in this case is an unconscious biological action and therefore cannot go in the "wrong" direction.

Evolutionary dead ends.

I rest my case.



(Just admit it... you've been pwnd. )
How to wind up an INTJ 101

 

[INTJMom]

Nope. That's her other half. She's far too introverted and can't see the pattern for the tartan paint most days.

She's prone to the "right now" syndrome of a sensor more so than the lost in a mire of information. Oh and having tried to follow her clues in roleplay... definitely an S. What she considers as simple is often reliant on many contextual pieces of information which she never gave. It's totally specific to her construct to and lacks any kind of real parallel.

Evolutionary dead ends.

I rest my case.



(Just admit it... you've been pwnd. )
How to wind up an INTJ 101

Since I don't believe in evolution, I guess that makes you right.
I admit it. You win.













PS: Yes. I am messing with your mind.
(but I still admit you're right)

 

[Xander]

Theory X+5^

All types require their opposite environment in balance with their preferred environment to be happy.

INTPs require structure, INTJs require inefficiency... perhaps it has something to do with a safety net (in which case the INTJ example is wrong but I really only did theorise this from the INTP side... I'm assuming it works for others based only on intuition) to support those faculties where the person is weakest? Perhaps it has more to do with having something to do, after all what is an INTP with no system to apply themselves to?

I know I'm a great fan of balance in all things anyway but I think that this is larger than just my wants... I think it could be true across the board... Thoughts anyone?

 

[INTJMom]

Your theory is too inefficient and too unstructured for me to comment on.




No, I'm serious. Really.