Showdown: Fe vs Fi...

[Jeffster]

No topic with "showdown" in the title should be this boring!

 

[BlueScreen]

AAAAARRRREEEE YYYYOOOOOUUUU RRRREEEEAAAADDDDDDYYY TOOOO RRRRRRRRRRRRUUUUMMMBBBBLLLLLLLLLLLEEE!!!

Better?

To make an analogy with Ti being the purist logic function, Fi is the purist human function. It isn't about how it looks, or effect on society, or acceptability. These are seen as corrupting influences. It just wants to stay true to what is at the core of self and humanity. It isn't rigid or value based either. It is much like Ti in the sense that it is just true to what it is. Ti refuses to compromise logic, Fi refuses to compromise 'the soul' (of anything).

 

[Kalach]

The showdown...

Neither can win, can they? They locate value in completely different arenas. In a showdown the best they can do is negate one another.

Fi will make Fe cry first. Fe will turn Fi invisible.

 

[Totenkindly]

Fi will make Fe cry first. Fe will turn Fi invisible.

What?

(explain! Inquiring minds want to understand! )

 

[Kalach]

Sample Size: 1. Don't ask.

But I'll willingly wildly extrapolate to a whole theory.

Fi, finding the value in internal harmony, will in principle get pissed and refuse if obliged to play nice with the other kids. (Depending on a few things of course, but most especially if Fi has decided being nice would be fake.) Fe, finding the value in external harmony, will want to see the kids play nice regardless, and will be snide, all the way up to charming, about it, depending on the place of Fe in the function order of the person. But is Fi going to give in? Ergo, Fe cries first.

And since Fi is about internal harmony there's going to a range of things it won't allow if it figures them fake, and a range of times when it'll stick its heels in and go morose and withdrawn. And Fe will paper over that damn Fi moodiness if it's standing in the way of external harmony. Ergo, invisibled.

You'd think that Fe would want to address Fi moodiness. But how can it? Fe'll be about external values and Fi's grouchy over something inside. In principle what external thing is going to address the inside imbalance? (A hug at the right time would probably work as a stop gap, but still...)

For that matter, Fi would like to address Fe moodiness too, but again, how can it? Fi'll be worrying about the other person's insides and that person'll be caring about some external value being violated.

So who fixes what for the other? In principle, neither.

Real life will include practical measures--like hugs and earnest listening--that'll tide either party over till the nanobots can pop up and medicate whatever part went wrong, but... y'know?

Like an extrovert telling an introvert to just get out and meet more people, or an introvert telling an extrovert to sit down and think a bit more. Or something.


I should include a standard disclaimer whenever I post: "I may be making all this up."

 

[Kestrel]

Alright, I'll bite.

Fe is concerned with maintaining externalized harmony. This can be on a scale as large as encompassing an entire society but can be as small as your home environment. (I've found Fe works better on a smaller scale.)

Most of the time, the type of harmony it is concerned with is interpersonal. Fe seems to be about making some kind of impact - it's usually very active and capable of moving mountains on an emotional level.

In its healthy state, it's authentic and has the potential to engulf others in its warm, comforting embrace. In its unhealthy or stressed state, it'll steamroll you and overwhelm you with its powerful intensity.

At least, this is how I experience it.

 

[EcK]

What is it all about ? No i won't read 2 pages long posts, EVER!

 

[Moiety]

It's about Fi being ten times cooler than Fe, Eck. Basically anyway.

 

[EcK]

It's about Fi being ten times cooler than Fe, Eck. Basically anyway.

oh I have so little F it doesn't matter anyway
thanks though

 

[Eric B]

You'd think that Fe would want to address Fi moodiness. But how can it? Fe'll be about external values and Fi's grouchy over something inside. In principle what external thing is going to address the inside imbalance? (A hug at the right time would probably work as a stop gap, but still...)

For that matter, Fi would like to address Fe moodiness too, but again, how can it? Fi'll be worrying about the other person's insides and that person'll be caring about some external value being violated.

So who fixes what for the other? In principle, neither.

I often see Fi mentioned as concerned with other people's insides, as well as its own. Iwonder how that works. Would an example of this be one person seeing another suffer wrong, and Fe would want to help the person and/or right the wrong, even if the victim wants to let it go (focusing on the external), while Fi would not try to take action if the person doesn't want it (focusing on what's inside). Kind of like watching someone like Charlie Brown take all that abuse from some of the other kids, and while he doesn't like it, he still is able to put up with it, but some of us watching either want to strangle those kids, or wish he would stand up for himself. Someone else watching might say something like "well, he should not stoop down to their level" by fighting back, or whatever, and assume that his inner harmony is more important than gaining outer harmony. (I could never see how people think like that).

So I'm still wondering how a person's inner harmony can be "violated" by someone else, then. I guess by accusing him of lacking integrity, or something like that. Or is it simply if the other person does something that indicates lack of internal integrity, and that turns the Fi person completely off to him? And NFP's, and especially the ENFPs, are described as being champions of causes. Is this for their own internal harmony, or for the beneficiaries of the causes?

 

[Tiltyred]

Someone else watching might say something like "well, he should not stoop down to their level" by fighting back, or whatever, and assume that his inner harmony is more important that gaining outer harmony. (I could never see how people think like that).

Well, I believe that's actually a control issue. Who's going to control me? I'm going to control me, since I'm the only one who has to account for my actions.
And then it comes down to where do you decide to take your stand? If I decide I am more concerned about being the boss of you, then I would fight back. But I'm not concerned about being anyone else's boss and I don't care if anybody thinks you're bossing or getting the better of me. I'm only concerned about passing my own tests. So if I am living up to my best self or my ideal, I don't fight back because I have decided to be merciful and kind no matter what you choose to do. If you are mean to me, I don't have to be mean back. All that proves is that I can be as mean as you are. Why would I want to prove that? It doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment. I can just avoid you. I can walk away.

I fail all the time, but that's the logic of the choice.

 

[Eric B]

Well, I guess fighting back is so that you would not become a doormat that everytone knows they can pick on.

But I was really viewing it from the perspective of the onlookers, and the comparison of Fe to Fi.

 

[Kalach]

I'll make some vague guesses here...

Both Fi and Fe appear to work off hints and clues for seeing feeling in others. And it seems like they look for hints and clues that remind themselves of themselves. So, Fe's out to see small actions that demonstrate people depending on each other while Fi's out to see the passion behind the project.

It seems to me too that both Fe and Fi value harmony, Fe external and Fi internal. Fe will become unsettled in situations where people are in conflict. Fi will become unsettled at such times too, but, perhaps, and now I just making things up, but Fi might in principle allow conflict in those cases where it stems from inner passions. The resolution of the conflict will be whatever finds internal harmonies for all involved, and that I guess will include expressing or at least recognising inner convictions. Fe, in principle, might not go so far. I dunno. Fe resolution is a recapitulation of everyone's interdependence?

But it does seem to me that in the cause of conflict resolution and harmony maintenance, Fe can and will privilege external signs of harmony over internal resolutions. And likewise, Fi can and will dig its heels in and offer to upset the applecart again and again if the inner conviction is not addressed.

The inner conviction powered by Fi need not be totally about the user himself. (For an INTJ it probably is, but for an ENFP...?) It might be a conviction about the rightness and wrongness of what people are doing to other people's insides.

Fe convictions?






...come after prolonged court battles including horrifying stories of demonic possession and why Father wanted all group members to carry a pistol if they had children.

 

[Kalach]

I'll make some vague guesses here...

Both Fi and Fe appear to work off hints and clues for seeing feeling in others. And it seems like they look for hints and clues that remind themselves of themselves. [...]

*sighs to self once again over inaccurate use of language*

Fi/e users work off hints and clues.

And saying "hints and clues" that "remind themselves of themselves" makes it all sound a very N process.

S people probably also use hints and clues too, but--and am I stereotyping here?--not stuff that needs to be guessed, but more likely "recognised as (traditionally?) appropriate"?

 

[the state i am in]

bitching about Fe seems silly to me when it is done to elevate Fi. judging functions do what they do, no one is entirely happy with the results.

Fi values/feelings hang like a raincloud over the room. we get tired of watching you mope and spin your tires and sigh sigh sigh (you're doing it out loud). who hasn't gotten the judging sideways glance of Fi when overstepping one of their invisible tripwires. you don't have to cooperate, but then stay out of the way, just go home. why do i want to spend time with someone who would rather sulk than make things work well for everyone? if it's the wrong decision, or if we are the wrong deciderers, find something or someone else.

i do these things too. i am more likely to opt out than to try to convert anyone to my ideas and beliefs and vision of how things should be. (i may have stronger Fi for an infj than i realize. maybe it's just an introverted quality, and we can just blame the extroverts!). often times it may feel all wrong, oh so wrong, and i'll just feel it and hate it.

attempts to control, to express, to fit in, etc, they're relevant for all of us. agency is a question that is muddled even more than authenticity. Fi is not more pure than Fe. it does what it does to get something done for a purpose, and pretending otherwise is absurd.

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i feel like Fi has a larger space for RESPONSE than Fe. it stores its memories and assigns feeling-tones to all objects. their abstractions are based on the built-in feeling-tones that come attached with whatever object they pull up into their attention.

Fe just buzzes with whatever frequencies are around it. knowing it will eventually replicate itself in you. magnetized. it tries to maintain its own healthy happy environment internally by fixing the situation in others, directing the situation, etc.

i am trying to understand right now if EXTROVERTED JUDGING is really a more viable way of understanding or situating these functions. j types are extroverted judgers. which is directing. Fe is more about directing. Te is more about directing. it is connecting and moving forward, evolving, changing, etc. ACTION. p types are extroverted perceiving, they grow their judging functions, they store Fi or Ti associations, articles, abstracts, etc into all objects, relying on categorizing and prioritizing to be better equipped in the future to respond in a quicker way. developing their habits so that they can feel confident and comfortable with their internal organization/virtual environment to respond quickly and efficiently and handle themselves.

Fe is a process of articulating and expressing and READING feelings. it relies on other tools of information gathering, perceiving tools like Ni or Se, and it gets additional judging power from Ti. absence of expressed feeling is seen as a negative by users of Fe, just like absence of THOUGHT is seen as a negative by T people (god, could you be any more vapid and illogical????).

 

[NewEra]

Fi all the way.