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Astrology and Us

Mole

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I know why they consider it as pseudoscience. It's because it's unfalsifiable. I do study psychology. Is it a belief system? Only if you call a categorical system as a belief system. It's not the same as what astrology is claiming though. Arbitrary dividing something into groups is one thing, assuming there's a correlation between one pattern with another is another.

Just look at the father of MBTI, the guru Carl Jung.

He wrote, "Personality Types", without any evidence whatsoever.

And he wrote, "Personality Types", to complement Somatic Types.

You no longer believe in Somatic Types, so why believe in Personality Types?
 

redacted

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Just look at the father of MBTI, the guru Carl Jung.

He wrote, "Personality Types", without any evidence whatsoever.

And he wrote, "Personality Types", to complement Somatic Types.

You no longer believe in Somatic Types, so why believe in Personality Types?

Honestly, I don't care at all who started the theory. It could have been anyone; some schizophrenic, whatever. Completely irrelevant.

The only thing that's relevant is whether or not I find it useful. And I do.

The bullshit parts, I throw out. It's the Evan system of typology, not the MBTI.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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Just look at the father of MBTI, the guru Carl Jung.

He wrote, "Personality Types", without any evidence whatsoever.

And he wrote, "Personality Types", to complement Somatic Types.

You no longer believe in Somatic Types, so why believe in Personality Types?

It's not a believe though, it's a workable model. Personality in people is like the spectrum of a rainbow, continuous. Yet people like to divide up the rainbow into distinct colors... red, orange, yellow... Why? Because that's just how our minds work. We like categories... No different than MBTI. A simplified model to describe personality. Yes, it's far too simplistic, but it's as good a starting point as any.

Believe me, if they can find a way of applying the Big 5 to describe motive and behavior of people I'll use that as a model. But they haven't. In fact they can't because everybody is placed on a slide rule. A point on a ruler isn't very good for making predictions. To make a decision, we must impose a cut-off. Big 5 doesn't tell us where to make that cut-off. MBTI does, that's why I use it as a starting point. But after a while, even that breaks down. The system is too complex to be explained by a simple model.
 

Mole

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Honestly, I don't care at all who started the theory. It could have been anyone; some schizophrenic, whatever. Completely irrelevant.

The only thing that's relevant is whether or not I find it useful. And I do.

The bullshit parts, I throw out. It's the Evan system of typology, not the MBTI.

If Evan can have his own system of typology, then Victor can have his own system of typology.

You can have your own system of belief, and I can have my own system of belief.

But E=MC2 no matter what Evan believes or even what Victor believes.

Can you believe that?
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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If Evan can have his own system of typology, then Victor can have his own system of typology.

You can have your own system of belief, and I can have my own system of belief.

But E=MC2 no matter what Evan believes or even what Victor believes.

Can you believe that?

No... E=MC^2 only applies for this universe. At least that's what those "crazy" string theorists indicate... although the work they're doing is approaching the limits of scientific reasoning and into the realm of speculations.

It's like saying the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. This only holds true in normal space... Take it to the surface of a sphere and it breaks down. Or 1+1 = 2 and not 10? It's circumstantial. :)
 

Tiltyred

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"The only thing that's relevant is whether or not I find it useful. And I do."

Exactly, exactly. The measure is, "Does it work?" not "Is it logical?"

Nightning, the fact that elements of your chart contradict each other does not disprove the validity of the information. It shows that you are not internally consistent at all times. It shows the different ways in which you use your different energies and where they might conflict. It shows that you don't understand what you're reading (which is pretty nigh impossible anyway, the way it is being presented). The great art of astrology is synthesis, it calls for a high level synthesis, which is not possible from a computer report. The computer report lists the individual elements without synthesizing.

Venus in Scorpio means that Venus was in Scorpio when you were born. It means that you are possessive and intense, you demand a great deal of loyalty and you tend not to forgive if you don't get it. You may use your sexuality as a way to bind your mate to you. You do not take affairs of the heart lightly. You like intensity and high contrast in art and music.

If that doesn't fit it, it either means that you are very young and don't know your own Venus nature yet, or, more likely, that you were given the wrong birth time, OR that you have something else in your chart that ameliorates your Venus to a great degree, although that is a hard Venus to get to lighten up. (I have it, too.)
 

redacted

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If Evan can have his own system of typology, then Victor can have his own system of typology.

You can have your own system of belief, and I can have my own system of belief.

But E=MC2 no matter what Evan believes or even what Victor believes.

Can you believe that?

Yeah.

I just have a problem with you being so anti-MBTI when you haven't even tried to learn the theory and build your own.

I take offense because you have no way of even understanding the ideas I have about the system, and yet you dismiss them as if I'm some kind of idiot.

You condescend to all of us, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

And when people bring up valid points against you, you quote the evidence of others instead of coming up with your own points...AND, your quotes are irrelevant half the time, because, again, you don't know what you're talking about, and you don't listen to the arguments against you.

You are NOT enlightened. You just won't let yourself see anything valid about the system, especially now that you've essentially defined yourself as someone who blanket-ly doesn't "believe" in MBTI (a silly way to think about it anyway). It would create so much dissonance for you to even consider the possibility of some validity to the system at this point, that you're basically a lost cause.


At least stop talking about MBTI, because you really don't know anything, and the more you say, the less you're open to thinking about.

As "open-minded" as you claim to be, you're one of the most clear cases of intense confirmation bias on the forum.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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Exactly, exactly. The measure is, "Does it work?" not "Is it logical?"

Nightning, the fact that elements of your chart contradict each other does not disprove the validity of the information. It shows that you are not internally consistent at all times. It shows the different ways in which you use your different energies and where they might conflict. It shows that you don't understand what you're reading (which is pretty nigh impossible anyway, the way it is being presented). The great art of astrology is synthesis, it calls for a high level synthesis, which is not possible from a computer report. The computer report lists the individual elements without synthesizing.

Venus in Scorpio means that Venus was in Scorpio when you were born. It means that you are possessive and intense, you demand a great deal of loyalty and you tend not to forgive if you don't get it.

If that doesn't fit it, it either means that you are very young and don't know your own Venus nature yet, or, more likely, that you were given the wrong birth time, OR that you have something else in your chart that ameliorates your Venus to a great degree, although that is a hard Venus to get to lighten up. (I have it, too.)
Measurement is whether it works? Well it depends on how you define that system doesn't it? Let's just say for now I'll go with your definition. Whether it works... the answer for me is no. And no sensible person reading my description will say it works for them. Because it's lacks internal consistency.

"Nightning, the fact that elements of your chart contradict each other does not disprove the validity of the information."
This is a very bad flaw. A person is sometimes A and other times B? You might as well say if a person is not a introvert he must be an extrovert. Or rather at times he's quiet and if he's not being quiet, he's being loud. What does that explain? Nothing. Even the ignoramus me can tell you that.

"It means that you are possessive and intense, you demand a great deal of loyalty and you tend not to forgive if you don't get it. "
I think it's safe to say most people consider themselves as loyal... and if people cross them, they get upset. Possessive and intense, I'll give those to you.
 

Anonymous

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If that doesn't fit it, it either means that you are very young and don't know your own Venus nature yet, or, more likely, that you were given the wrong birth time, OR that you have something else in your chart that ameliorates your Venus to a great degree, although that is a hard Venus to get to lighten up. (I have it, too.)

Or maybe, and I know that I'm going out on a limb here, it means that when you were born has no influence on your personality.
 

nightning

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I just have a problem with you being so anti-MBTI when you haven't even tried to learn the theory and build your own.

You are NOT enlightened. You just won't let yourself see anything valid about the system, especially now that you've essentially defined yourself as someone who blanket-ly doesn't "believe" in MBTI (a silly way to think about it anyway). It would create so much dissonance for you to even consider the possibility of some validity to the system at this point, that you're basically a lost cause.


At least stop talking about MBTI, because you really don't know anything, and the more you say, the less you're open to thinking about.
This I disagree with. Victor has tried to understand MBTI and has come to his conclusions that it's of little use to him. And for that he is enlightened.

Disagree once again with your and his interpretation that MBTI is a believe. It's not... just a model. If it works for you, use it. If it doesn't that's okay too.

Relate it back to astrology... is astrology a model? No, I can't see it as such. The basic premise is you as a person is correlated to the movement of the planets because of this, you can learn about your personality through the position of these heavenly bodies. There is your causality. Because there's a correlation, then this follows... The correlation has never been demonstrated though... no matter how many times people looked at it. Nor can we find a rationale for such correlation to exists. That's my biggest pet peeve with astrology.
 

redacted

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This I disagree with. Victor has tried to understand MBTI and has come to his conclusions that it's of little use to him. And for that he is enlightened.

Disagree once again with your and his interpretation that MBTI is a believe. It's not... just a model. If it works for you, use it. If it doesn't that's okay too.

Relate it back to astrology... is astrology a model? No, I can't see it as such. The basic premise is you as a person is correlated to the movement of the planets because of this, you can learn about your personality through the position of these heavenly bodies. There is your causality. Because there's a correlation, then this follows... The correlation has never been demonstrated though... no matter how many times people looked at it. Nor can we find a rationale for such correlation to exists. That's my biggest pet peeve with astrology.

Yeah, you misunderstood me.

I put "belief" in quotation marks because it's a silly word to use. And I said as much afterward.

He is overstepping his bounds to shove his assertions on others wherever he can. It would be one thing if he said "I don't understand why ..." and asked people to explain or something. But the truth is, he's not curious. Because he doesn't actually want information that contradicts him.

He's not discussing, he's preaching. And he doesn't listen to points against him. He takes them all as "oh, those poor, stupid souls; they're so blind!"



MBTI isn't a belief system. It's a framework. Just like "left" and "right" is a dichotomy. Are you gonna go around saying "left" and "right" are bullshit? No, that's ridiculous. They aren't bullshit because they're useful to use as concepts. If you go victor's route, you should throw out language in general. It's all just metaphor. It isn't actually "true".

I don't believe in "big" and "small". There is a cult of "big" and "small". It's pseudoscience!
 

Tiltyred

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Measurement is whether it works? Well it depends on how you define that system doesn't it? Let's just say for now I'll go with your definition. Whether it works... the answer for me is no. And no sensible person reading my description will say it works for them. Because it's lacks internal consistency....

This is a very bad flaw. A person is sometimes A and other times B? You might as well say if a person is not a introvert he must be an extrovert. Or rather at times he's quiet and if he's not being quiet, he's being loud. What does that explain? Nothing. Even the ignoramus me can tell you that.

Dude. For example. I am an I. IRL, I don't talk much, I have one or two friends ata time, I like a lot of alone time. However, if the subject is interesting to me, I become very animated and I can talk for hours. This is true of most Is, no? How that bears out astrologically is that I have Mercury on my ascendant, which would indicate a person who is communicative. But I also have a 12th house Sun which would indicate a person who is solitary and retiring, also that I'm attracted to the occult meaning literally things that are hidden. Ok, so you read that I'm very communicative and then you read that I am retiring and solitary. Now you're going to tell me these two things cannot be true because they are contradictory. They contradict each other AND they are true -- they describe me perfectly if you combine them.

MBTI talks about our shadow functions, inferior functions, how different people provoke different reactions within the same type (in other words, INFJ and ISTP get along differently and provoke different reactions in each other than INFJ and ENTP).

You said
But it's not okay to say a theory is true despite all the evidence against such theory.

You have not read all the evidence. You have only read the work of people who are not astrologers.

Here's a link you may find interesting.
Planet Waves: Holographic Astrology by Eric Francis
 

Tiltyred

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Again, these are people who don't know what they're talking about, reading descriptions to other people who don't know what they're talking about.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Type in Forer Effect and MBTI in Google.
 

redacted

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Type in Forer Effect and MBTI in Google.

The Forer Effect accounts for a lot of the pro-MBTI sentiment. But certainly not all.

The Forer Effect accounts for ALL of the pro-astrology sentiment.

The only possible thing I could think of that would affect personality based on time and place of birth is that maybe if it's really cold during some early point in development, some change is more likely. But that's about as far as you can take it without turning it into vageries and nonsense.

Plus, that would only work if the person stayed put; didn't switch latitudes or anything.
 

Lauren Ashley

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The Forer Effect accounts for a lot of the pro-MBTI sentiment. But certainly not all.

The Forer Effect accounts for ALL of the pro-astrology sentiment.

Says who?

Those who've seriously studied MBTI say it's not the Forer Effect. Those who've seriously studied astrology say it's not the Forer Effect.
 

redacted

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"Those who've" doesn't mean anything to me.

I want my argument refuted.

Howabout this: list all of the factors that go into astrological "type". I'll use those to make a ridiculous claim that astrology defends by definition.
 

Lauren Ashley

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I'm too lazy for all that.

The same way Victor disagrees with MBTI, you disagree with astrology. Who's right on either side, we'll never know, I guess.
 

redacted

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I'm too lazy for all that.

The same way Victor disagrees with MBTI, you disagree with astrology. Who's right on either side, we'll never know, I guess.

No, it's not the same, since I'm willing to engage in discussion.

YOU aren't. Not my fault.
 
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