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T and F and the Big Five

FFF

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MBTI info obtained from HERE.

T/F -- Thinking/Feeling. Feeling types are compassionate, sensitive people who put the happiness of people first. Thinking type are very logical, independent, accomplished, and know how to do things. However, you could also say Thinking types are heartless, arrogant jerks who treat people like machines, and Feeling types are insipid, dependent, conflict-avoiding basket cases.

INTRO

If you've read my previous thread in this section, you should know that research has found a connection between T/F and the Big Five trait Agreeableness (A), but I think it's really mixed up with Neuroticism (N) too. I was gonna go into the judging functions, but I'll save that for later to keep this post short enough so as to not scare anyone off.

Dissecting the Definition

Within the above quoted definitions, I see a mix of mostly A and some N (Neuroticism, not iNtuition in this post) that I will indicate by putting the letters in parentheses. I will indicate a lack of A and N for T types with minus signs following the letters.

Feeling types are compassionate (A), sensitive people (N) who put the happiness of people first (A). Thinking type are very logical (N-), independent (A-), accomplished (generally A- with Conscientiousness denoted by C and extroversion), and know how to do things (C). However, you could also say Thinking types are heartless (A-), arrogant (C) jerks who treat people like machines (A-), and Feeling types are insipid (A and N-), dependent (A), conflict-avoiding (A with one element of introversion) basket cases (N).

Apparently, feelers are a mix of mostly A with a little N, and thinkers are A-, N-, and C (although, I think conscientiousness is a perfect match for J and shouldn't have a thing to do with T and F).

EXAMPLE SECTION

Finally, I will discuss examples of people who are not A and N or A- and N- together. It helps to realize that A is a trait that only shows itself when interacting with people or animals and N is your capacity for negative emotions. Lack of negative emotions doesn't mean happy and jubilant, but simply lacking negative emotions.

I'm an example of someone A and N-. I'm compassionate and tend to put the happiness of other people first, but strangely, enough, I'm also insensitive. I'm insipid, dependent, and conflict-avoiding. My logical N- side causes me to value logical accuracy and sometimes can get ahead of my Agreeableness. I'll logically explain to you that you're wrong in the most agreeable manner possible, and I won't take it bad if you still don't agree.

My mom is someone who is A- and N. This really makes for a terrible combination when you have someone who experiences the fears, anxieties, worries, depression, self-consciousness, and anger associated with N and the welcoming of conflict, greater emphasis on one's own needs, and distrust associated with A-. If this type of person is worried or afraid, escaping these emotions are more important to them, than what's beneficial to others. My mom is now overcome with fear that the cat is going to get hurt by going outside to play. So she thinks it's acceptable to keep the cat inside all the time no matter how much he whines to go out and never mind how much boredom and frustration he may be experiencing. Although my mom is A-, she is not very logical at all because she's N.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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Neuroticism is being emotionally volatile. N+ would be correlated with large up and downs in emotions. At the extreme end, you can get hysteria and bipolar-like symptoms.
 

FFF

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Neuroticism is being emotionally volatile. N+ would be correlated with large up and downs in emotions. At the extreme end, you can get hysteria and bipolar-like symptoms.

Neuroticism is the capacity for negative emotions and includes six facets:

1. Anxiety
2. Anger
3. Depression
4. Self-consciousness
5. Immoderation (hard to resist over-indulgence)
6. Vulnerability

One author compares it to a fire alarm to illustrate that systems high neuroticism can be a good thing and being too can be bad. A fire alarm that's too sensitive might go off when it shouldn't and annoy you. A fire alarm that's too insensitive might not go off until the plastic is melting on the damn thing. By then most of your house is gone, and if you were sleeping, you probably died from the poisons released by the fire.

The range of positive emotions is found in the cheerfulness facet of Extraversion. They're two separate sets of circuitry. When you're really introverted and really lacking in neuroticism, you have a sort of Ben Stiller Stein (the Visine, "wow" guy) personality that seems to be lacking in all emotions.

One day I'd like to describe and discuss each Big Five trait in depth. I think I'd start with Extraversion and then go on to Neuroticism.
 

Haphazard

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When you're really introverted and really lacking in neuroticism, you have a sort of Ben Stiller (the Visine, "wow" guy) personality that seems to be lacking in all emotions.

One day I'd like to describe and discuss each Big Five trait in depth. I think I'd start with Extraversion and then go on to Neuroticism.

That'd be Ben Stein, not Ben Stiller. There's quite a difference, there.

So to be happy, you have to be extroverted?
 

FFF

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That'd be Ben Stein, not Ben Stiller. There's quite a difference, there.

So to be happy, you have to be extroverted?

Ouch, there IS a big difference. It just shows my lack of celebrity knowledge.

In a sense, yes. The opposite of the happiness that comes with extroversion is not sadness, it's just a lack off that happiness. Most people have at least some capacity for these feelings I forgot to also mention that a lot of positive social emotions go along with extroversion too and have to do with other facets. So you have four results based on the extremes.

E and N- = Lots of positive emotions and few negative ones. Optimistic.
E and N = Lots of emotions all over the place. Inconsistent.
E- and N- = A lack of emotion. Realistic.
E- and N = Lots of negative emotions and few positive ones. Pessimistic.

In the Introvert Advantage it mentions two pleasure systems, one that runs on dopamine and one that runs on acetylcholine. The dopamine system is involved in simple quick pleasures like eating good food and sex. The acetylcholine system takes longer to activate and probably produces a deeper, more subtle enjoyment. Introverts are more likely to make use of the acetylcholine system than extroverts are, although they may not use it more than the dopamine system. I wish I had more info on this.

Eddie Murphy is a good example of an extrovert (Donkey from Shrek). So an introvert might be happy or content, but just not Eddie Murphy happy. TYPc's very own Whatever, is also a good example of someone really extroverted.
 

Haphazard

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So the strange euphoria that one gets from wanting to throw one's self into a project doesn't count as happiness?

Weird.
 

FFF

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Don't get too serious about terminology. It's definitely something pleasurable whether you call it happiness or not. It seems like it would come from your J. Generally, the extroversion happiness is like a frequently positive, upbeat mood.
 

A Schnitzel

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This is a good topic.
Something that I've been wondering about for a while.
 

Haphazard

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Don't get too serious about terminology. It's definitely something pleasurable whether you call it happiness or not. It seems like it would come from your J. Generally, the extroversion happiness is like a frequently positive, upbeat mood.

But it's still a positive emotion, right? And that's under E, as you've explained. I'm still confused. I mean, having intensely positive yet intensely private emotions may not exactly yield a chipper mood, but it won't look like Ben Stein and be 'realistic', either.
 

FFF

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But it's still a positive emotion, right? And that's under E, as you've explained. I'm still confused. I mean, having intensely positive yet intensely private emotions may not exactly yield a chipper mood, but it won't look like Ben Stein and be 'realistic', either.

Perhaps extraversion affects what kinds of pleasures you like and how much you like them. I do remember reading somewhere that introverts are more sensitive to dopamine.

As far as going head on into a project, it does sound like something a J type would like. So, I guess other traits can influence what you like.
 

Eric B

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Neuroticism was originally a factor Hans Eysenck paired with E/I to define the ancient four temperaments. So the more critical temperaments, Melancholic and Choleric, were high in Neuroticism, and Sanguine and Phlegmatic were low. So this factor paralleled the people-task-focus already developing with Marston's DISC model. Both were forms of "response-time sustain", which told how long a person held on to reactions, including negative ones.

Eventually, Eysenck added another factor, "Psychoticism", and when the FFM was developed, the N carried over, and Psychoticism was correlated with Agreeableness and Conscientiousness. The definitions for Agreeableness actually fit people/task-focus closer than Neuroticism.

When FFM was correlated with MBTI by McRae and Costa, Agreeableness was paralleled to T/F; Conscientiousness with J/P, and Neuroticism was left out. The concept was originally apart of Myers' work, but left out because of its negativity. However, a new variation of MBTI aims to represent it in a factor called "Comfort-Discomfort".

David Keirsey and Linda Berens would map out some new factors in their temperament and Interaction Styles models. These were not correlated with FFM, but do seem to be more direct parallels: Conscientiousness-Cooperativeness/Pragmatism; Agreeableness-Directing/Informing. With this, for S types; the correlations would fit Agreeableness=T/F; Conscientiousness=J/P. But for N types (iNtuitors, that is), it is reverse: Agreeableness=J/P; Conscientiousness=T/F.

In the original four tempermanents, Neuroticism pretty much followed Agreeableness, though in an inverse fashion (high N=low A). That would suggest the more directive temperaments are also more Neurotic. Since both temperament and Interaction Style correapnd to the same four temperaments, then there is another factor called Structure/Motive, which mirrors Directing/Informing, and is basically another level of Agreeableness. Both Directing and Structure lean towards T and J, and Informing and Motive lean towards F and P. Under this theory, we would expect T and J to be more neurotic. J is easy to imagine, since they are strict about scheduling and ordering the outer world. T, with its typical "detachment", may seem more emotionally stable on the outside, but the tough-mindedness does lead to a lot of inner discomfort (like when things are illogical, arguing with people, etc). F might have more emotional reaction, but the key to Neuroticism is how much they hold on to it. F's apparently might be more likely not to, hence them being called more "friendly". FJ's and TP's will be mixed in N, therefore.
 

FFF

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Neuroticism does have a hold on factor involved, but there is also a level of activation too. Someone low in N might take 50 units of stress to be bothered by it, while someone low might take only 25 units. The low N types get over stuff faster, and the high N types take longer.
 

mlittrell

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i hope your not using that quote as your definition for T/F because that is by far one of the worst definitions i have ever heard.
 

FDG

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It's a very nice topic.

I think that the traits have many facets and thus a thinking type will never be able to score very high on all of them in the agreeableness realm.

I generally score around 99 on extraversion, around 5 on neuroticism, and somewhat average in agreeablness; say, around 40-50. I'm very trustful and optimistic, but also very blunt and I can be somewhat aloof with people I do not like. I can easily have conflict with people I have no feelings towards (say, the police), but in a very calm and nice way. Overall, though, this combination is not particularly good for forming, say, "work" relationships (it can get on people's nerves that I am calm yet not very very agreeable); however I personally like it as far as personal relationships go.

My girlfriend has low neuroticism (around 15-20) and high agreeablness. I personally think that being highly agreeable can increase your neuroticism in certain occasions, for example when people demand you favors, you agree - and then end up with an excessive amount of responsabilities.
 

Eric B

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Ouch, there IS a big difference. It just shows my lack of celebrity knowledge.

In a sense, yes. The opposite of the happiness that comes with extroversion is not sadness, it's just a lack off that happiness. Most people have at least some capacity for these feelings I forgot to also mention that a lot of positive social emotions go along with extroversion too and have to do with other facets. So you have four results based on the extremes.

E and N- = Lots of positive emotions and few negative ones. Optimistic.
E and N = Lots of emotions all over the place. Inconsistent.
E- and N- = A lack of emotion. Realistic.
E- and N = Lots of negative emotions and few positive ones. Pessimistic.
I always wondered if any branch of FFM paired together any of the factors to outline "types".
 

FFF

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I always wondered if any branch of FFM paired together any of the factors to outline "types".

I have a book with a list of combinations of traits (or sometimes just a single trait or even a single facet) that results in some kind of ability, behavior, or potential. For example, extroversion with agreeableness causes someone to be warm and friendly. Of course you can derive the opposite from the opposite traits, introversion with a lack of agreeableness causes someone to be cold and unfriendly. It's interesting to ponder the results of having only one here. Only extroversion causes someone to be willing to talk to almost anyone, but they're usually inconsiderate and rude. If you're not extroverted but agreeable like me, you try to be nice and get along with everyone, but you probably won't talk to someone unless they talk to you first.
 

Haphazard

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How mutable is FFM?

Because I can imagine neuroticism skyrocketing with PTSD, extroversion and concientiousness dropping with depression, etc., however these people would probably be different from people who were naturally high/low in these traits.

And neuroticism has to do with how 'fast' one gets 'over stuff'? What exactly does that mean? And does this count anticipation?
 

Eric B

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I have a book with a list of combinations of traits (or sometimes just a single trait or even a single facet) that results in some kind of ability, behavior, or potential. For example, extroversion with agreeableness causes someone to be warm and friendly. Of course you can derive the opposite from the opposite traits, introversion with a lack of agreeableness causes someone to be cold and unfriendly. It's interesting to ponder the results of having only one here. Only extroversion causes someone to be willing to talk to almost anyone, but they're usually inconsiderate and rude. If you're not extroverted but agreeable like me, you try to be nice and get along with everyone, but you probably won't talk to someone unless they talk to you first.
That's just like MBTI/Berens' E/I and Directing/Informing. E + A =Get Things Going; I + -A = Chart the Course; I + A = Behind the Scenes.

What book is this?
 

FFF

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What book is this?

THIS BOOK. It's probably the best introduction book for the FFM that I know of. It's all about how it applies to the Workplace though since it's by an I/O psychologist.

And neuroticism has to do with how 'fast' one gets 'over stuff'? What exactly does that mean? And does this count anticipation?

One time I was driving in the rain, and my car went sliding off the road. I swerved back on the road in a continuous motion, and I noticed I didn't hit anything. I concluded everything was fine. I was by the time I got to the next stop sign. Some girls I know would've been spazzing out, and buy the time we got to our destination would probably still be affected by it. They might possibly make reference to it. I would represent low neuroticism and the girl would represent high neuroticism.

Right now you should be in a normal state. Elements of neuroticism involve how easy it is for your fight-or-flight response to start, and possibly how intensely it's activated. It also involves how long it takes for you to get back to a normal state like you should be in right now.
 
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