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Function Order : Clarification.

Athenian200

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Even if these things can't be proven in any real sense at this point in time, it should be possible to derive criteria which could prove/disprove each scenario.

Okay, I'm open to that idea. How should we go about deriving such criteria?
 

entropie

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The intresting thing with socionics actually is: my cognitiveprocesses result does make sense:

extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************************** (32.4)
good use
introverted Sensing (Si) ************ (12.7)
unused
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *********************************** (35.8)
good use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) *********************************** (35.1)
good use
extraverted Thinking (Te) *********************************** (35)
good use
introverted Thinking (Ti) **************************************** (40.4)
excellent use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) *********************** (23.8)
limited use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ************************ (24.8)
average use

---------

Though I scored high on Ni and Te and according to socionics they do fall into the last 7th and 8th functions, socionics says also that they are more like to be a mirror image of the leading and creative function, so the 1st and 2nd. Therefore it does not exclude the fact that someone is not adept in them, it even says moreso that someone is to take the 7th and 8th function less serious in people and does make fun out of it, if he can :D.

And to do so, you have to be good at it, do I make sense ? :D
 

Salomé

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Okay, I'm open to that idea. How should we go about deriving such criteria?

I was hoping you would tell me :).
I'm going to have to procrastinate on that a while.

Initial thoughts, for T functions. One needs to be able to define in specific terms how Ti and Te manifest themselves. Then it should be possible to test whether people who excel in Ti also excel in Te (not by asking them about preferences but by testing their cognitive skills). If it is all just Thinking applied to different contexts, then there shouldn't be much difference between the two results. If there is significant disparity, then this suggests that different cognitive processes are at work. Localising them in the brain can already be done (crudely) with PET scanning.
 

Kaizer

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INTJ = Te Ni Se Fi = TNSF

INTJ -> NiTeFiSe

Also, Ni before Te i.e. N before T (with INTJs) and not the opposite i.e. Ti before Ne. T before N (with INTPs) is very obvious once one notices it, but the difference is very subtle. I'm relieved to have discovered this.
 
Last edited:

Xander

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do I make sense ? :D
Rarely but I think I catch your drift. :)
Initial thoughts, for T functions. One needs to be able to define in specific terms how Ti and Te manifest themselves. Then it should be possible to test whether people who excel in Ti also excel in Te (not by asking them about preferences but by testing their cognitive skills). If it is all just Thinking applied to different contexts, then there shouldn't be much difference between the two results. If there is significant disparity, then this suggests that different cognitive processes are at work. Localising them in the brain can already be done (crudely) with PET scanning.
Can you be good at Ti AND be terrible at Te? Extremely unlikely. It's T, it's all T. The e or i are just WHERE you prefer to employ the T.
INTJ -> NiTeFiSe
Okay smartass I noted the mistake earlier :tongue10:
Also, Ni before Te i.e. N before T (with INTJs) and not the opposite i.e. Ti before Ne. T before N (with INTPs) is very obvious once one notices it, but the difference is very subtle. I'm relieved to have discovered this.
Ti as primary is VERY noticable once you consider the HUGE delay between a question being asked and an INTP doing something about reaching a conclusion. Before we'll even consider going out and finding stuff out we have to pontificate about where we're going to look. We stoically refuse to just "meander about" looking in random places...
 

Salomé

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Can you be good at Ti AND be terrible at Te? Extremely unlikely. It's T, it's all T. The e or i are just WHERE you prefer to employ the T.
I was just attempting to come up with ways to explore the validity of the concepts. Currently, competing theories are merely hypothetical as Athenian has said. As such they are hardly worth debating. You can't prove Ti doesn't exist, I can't prove it does (although there is some evidence to suggest that it is a distinct neurological process), without going through the more rigorous process I have hinted at.
 

wildcat

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Is it not true that Ti and Te are both T?

If I gave this as the standard format Uc
fUnction and context.

Ergo Ti is T with a preference for applying it introvertedly and so on.

Is it not therefore true that an INTPs function order is TNSF?

Would I be correct in saying that there are only four functions listed in a types function order because of what it is describing, it does not require the other four?

Surely if the order is describing the order of preference for the four "functions" (as outlined above not in the normal subdivided Ti and Te sense) and making note of where the subject prefers to apply the function then noting the order of preference in which they use functions in a context they don't prefer is redundant.

OR am I barking up the wrong tree?
That kind of a marker does say a thing, yes. A promising note.


Take the cognitive processes test.
Or if you remember it you do not need to take it.

Ti + Te =
Ni + Ne =

Which is higher?

If Ti + Te is a way higher than Ni + Ne, then you are a TNSF.
Right handed.

I am NTFS. Left handed.

Our culture is right handed, unfortunately, so it does not mean every NTFS is left handed. Only the headstrong.

A good marker, Xander. In the correct application useful.
Congrats. :)

Now it is time for the morning news (exciting things about Obama :D) and for the morning :coffee:
 

alcea rosea

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That kind of a marker does say a thing, yes. A promising note.


Take the cognitive processes test.
Or if you remember it you do not need to take it.

Ti + Te =
Ni + Ne =

Which is higher?

If Ti + Te is a way higher than Ni + Ne, then you are a TNSF.
Right handed.

I am NTFS. Left handed.

Our culture is right handed, unfortunately, so it does not mean every NTFS is left handed. Only the headstrong.

A good marker, Xander. In the correct application useful.
Congrats. :)

Now it is time for the morning news (exciting things about Obama :D) and for the morning :coffee:

Very interesting point. Now I'll have to check my function tests. :D I do rememer I have FI+Fe very high both.... *checking the function order test results*

The result of the function order test for me is: Ne Fi Fe Ni Se Ti Te Si
and counting the procentages together I'm FNST. But when checking out my stronges function that I'm very strong it's Ne. And my Fi is much stronger than Fe so I say I'm more ENFP than ENFJ even if I'm probably ENFp.
 

Kaizer

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Okay smartass I noted the mistake earlier :tongue10:
Yes I noticed that & hence the edit note : "Last edited by Kaizer; Yesterday at 06:29 PM. Reason: read the subsequent post by Xander"
Ti as primary is VERY noticable once you consider the HUGE delay between a question being asked and an INTP doing something about reaching a conclusion. Before we'll even consider going out and finding stuff out we have to pontificate about where we're going to look. We stoically refuse to just "meander about" looking in random places...
Yes agreed. I've experienced this J outlook & course of action etc . but it wasn't till I understood the leading func difference that the Ti v/s Ni difference explained it. I see it as passing judgment based on lil or no info and then backing it up with T (in INTJs) and so judgment is instant, and even though the judgment might be open to scrutiny, the buttressing by T that follows makes the lack of precision and the reaction seem like intransigence etc. So I guess what I'm, trying to say is that even though the Flack func sys makes sense in a certain way, and what you've said does cut some ice, but that this seemingly not so visible diff b/w the two INTs i.e. Js and Ps, seems to be a fundamental and so subtle a difference that it'd be hard to spot and explain interaction with the help of it had it not been this function order and the orientation of each.
 

wildcat

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Very interesting point. Now I'll have to check my function tests. :D I do rememer I have FI+Fe very high both.... *checking the function order test results*

The result of the function order test for me is: Ne Fi Fe Ni Se Ti Te Si
and counting the procentages together I'm FNST. But when checking out my stronges function that I'm very strong it's Ne. And my Fi is much stronger than Fe so I say I'm more ENFP than ENFJ even if I'm probably ENFp.
I say a perfect equilibrium.
Beautiful.
Thank you, alcea rosea.

Your dominant hemisphere is the right one.
Very much so.

But you are not left handed, are you? :)
 

wildcat

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Is the application of a component removed of the component?
The engineer says no.

The engineer is even more right than he thinks he is.
The component is one.
The application is many.

Multiple keys open the lock.
 

alcea rosea

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I say a perfect equilibrium.
Beautiful.
Thank you, alcea rosea.

Your dominant hemisphere is the right one.
Very much so.

But you are not left handed, are you? :)

Hehe, I score many times balanced brained or slightly right brained in those brain hemisphere tests (if those tests actually mean anything).

I'm right handed. I can use my left hand pretty well thought, and I do have many left handed relatives (my granddad was left handed but forced to write with his right hand). In fact, compared to members in my family, I use left hand naturally doing some other stuff than writing when the other right handed use right hand....:doh: I mean here stuff like which way a person naturally carries a baby etc. But I'm still dominant right hand user. :newwink:

Pretty messy explanation there and so also very typical of me. ;)
 

Salomé

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That kind of a marker does say a thing, yes. A promising note.


Take the cognitive processes test.
Or if you remember it you do not need to take it.

Ti + Te =
Ni + Ne =

Which is higher?

If Ti + Te is a way higher than Ni + Ne, then you are a TNSF.
Right handed.

I am NTFS. Left handed.

Our culture is right handed, unfortunately, so it does not mean every NTFS is left handed. Only the headstrong.

A good marker, Xander. In the correct application useful.
Congrats. :)

Now it is time for the morning news (exciting things about Obama :D) and for the morning :coffee:

I don't see how this is useful. It provides less information, not more.
 

Xander

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Mr Wildcat (Master of Tangents),

The thrust of the thread is that if INTP =4 then Ti+Te=1, Ni+Ne=1, Si+Se=1 and Fi+Fe=1. As a gross oversimplification.

With weighting it would be similar to T=4, N=3, S=2 F=1 ergo INTP =10

Ti= say 2.5 Te=1.5 and so on. That would be the preferences combined with their contexts.

Function order should be TNSF not Ti Ne Si Fe + Te Ni Se Fi. The second group is not necessary.
 

Salomé

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Mr Wildcat (Master of Tangents),

The thrust of the thread is that if INTP =4 then Ti+Te=1, Ni+Ne=1, Si+Se=1 and Fi+Fe=1. As a gross oversimplification.

With weighting it would be similar to T=4, N=3, S=2 F=1 ergo INTP =10

Ti= say 2.5 Te=1.5 and so on. That would be the preferences combined with their contexts.

Function order should be TNSF not Ti Ne Si Fe + Te Ni Se Fi. The second group is not necessary.

I wish you would qualify your statements. Arbitrary certainty is troubling in amateurs.
 

"?"

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This is what I meant and I think your examples from Jung's writing show.

Basically there is no Ti and Te, there is only T in the context of E or I.

No person is a pure I or a pure J or a pure anything but only by establishing these extremes is it possible to compare people and categorise them.

Anyhow, what I'm getting at is that when people start to analyse and propose that they "use Ti" or whatever, it's incorrect. They are using T, the context does not form part of the function.
Well if nothing else you indicate that you do use Ti as described by Jung. You subjectively plucked out one sentence which is taken out of context since the preceding sentence says "When the objective orientation receives a certain predominance, the thinking is extraverted. This circumstance changes nothing as regards the logic of thought -- it merely determines that difference between thinkers which James regards as a matter of temperament." It was focusing on Te, not Ti. In any case "No" the attitude is the most important thing and Jung, Myers-Briggs and Jungian Psychololgist give little credence to pure function. In fact I would have to read "Gifts Differing" but I am strongly thinking that the only author that ever raised the dichotomies as you present them were the Tiegers. Their work is not Jungian, but a mere hybrid of Myers-Briggs.
I wonder though if functions necessarily operate in pairs. I know that Jung said that if the primary function was extraverted then the secondary would be introverted to balance it but is it necessarily impossible to use Te and Ne at times?
No. If you read this part you also realized that his principle states that you cannot introvert or extravert two functions simultaneously. You can only use an extraverted function when using introverted functions simultaneously.
 

wildcat

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Hehe, I score many times balanced brained or slightly right brained in those brain hemisphere tests (if those tests actually mean anything).

I'm right handed. I can use my left hand pretty well thought, and I do have many left handed relatives (my granddad was left handed but forced to write with his right hand). In fact, compared to members in my family, I use left hand naturally doing some other stuff than writing when the other right handed use right hand....:doh: I mean here stuff like which way a person naturally carries a baby etc. But I'm still dominant right hand user. :newwink:

Pretty messy explanation there and so also very typical of me. ;)
It is not at all messy! I got the idea easily.
It is as I thought. I can also use the non dominant hand quite easily in tasks that do not require complex motor skill. I have great motor problem even with the left hand. But that has nothing to do with laterality, it is an aspie thingy.

You were the only one who did understand what I said. :hug:
I think that is because of you are a right brainer. Therefore you have an elastic mind.
Yes, you are an FNST, but you have great intution all the same.

I say T is much overvalued. It is a left brain thing. Rather boring and very tedious. :)
 

alcea rosea

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It is not at all messy! I got the idea easily.
It is as I thought. I can also use the non dominant hand quite easily in tasks that do not require complex motor skill. I have great motor problem even with the left hand. But that has nothing to do with laterality, it is an aspie thingy.

You were the only one who did understand what I said. :hug:
I think that is because of you are a right brainer. Therefore you have an elastic mind.
Yes, you are an FNST, but you have great intution all the same.

I say T is much overvalued. It is a left brain thing. Rather boring and very tedious. :)

Yes, I shouldn't underestimate INTP's thinking capabilities! I'm just used to overexplaining myself because many people do not understand what I'm saying when I get complicated.

I think you are great wildcat :hug: and I always appreciate your way of thinking. I mean it's so refreshingly different and I love to learn new ways of looking at things. That is why I enjoy very much the discussions with INTP's I meet in the real life (thank god my sister is iNTP or eNTP, we have very intense and interesting discussions together when we see, althought I tire her out with my huge amount of radiant extroverted energy).

But what you were saying in your previous post would explain why I have problems with the functions theory and my very strong F and why I don't fit into ENFJ even with my strong F. My F isn't mainly Fe like it is when most visible with EXFJ's. It's very strong and quiet F in the real life. I hide it well because it has caused me a lot of trouble in my life. Let's just put it this way: it just hurts too damn much.
 

Jack Flak

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Ask her for her number, wildcat...

(The preceding was a joke)
 
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