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One for the experts.

Xander

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Right I'm thinking along the lines of MBTI and Enneagram. I've known a few people who when doing soul searching found one or the other more helpful.

Basically I'd like to discuss what one represents as opposed to the other, how much they should be integrated and what dangers, hazards and highlights there are to this kind of approach.
 

Totenkindly

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Right I'm thinking along the lines of MBTI and Enneagram. I've known a few people who when doing soul searching found one or the other more helpful.

Basically I'd like to discuss what one represents as opposed to the other, how much they should be integrated and what dangers, hazards and highlights there are to this kind of approach.

Short answer:

MBTI is an analysis of our priorities when we gather and process information. These priorities generate the sixteen types.

The Enneagram is a list of nine archetypes as the basis for the system, rather than starting with foundational functions. The types are more closely bound in the sense that people who are either maturing or declining will drift in defined ways towards one of the other archetypes. It is this sense of "movement" within the theory itself that probably makes it appeal to the more spiritualized audience.

Some aspects of the MBTI and Enneagram do intertwine. For example, some of the types commonly map into the other system. The INTPs are usually Fives, for example, and occassionally Nines. With the Fives, I am going to hazard a guess that 5w4 INTPs have more developed Fi/Ni/Ne (one or more of those) and not as stringent a Ti sense as the 5w6, which seems to be more about Ti and Si development. A case for stronger Ni in the case of the 5w4 can most easily be made because INxJ types (with Ni as their Primary) map most often into the Fours. Also, interestingly, the 5w4 wing has been identified as the "Iconoclast" (the Enneagram type that deconstructs "signs"), and if you study the Ni function (see the Lenore Thomson wiki), you'll see that this is exactly what Ni does... it recognizes that signs really do not have inherent meaning and thus steps outside them in order to better see what is happening.

[Thoughts on this are appreciated.]

In this sense, I find a combination of MBTI/Enneagram to be useful to explain variances within types in MBTI. You also see potentials for growth that you wouldn't find in MBTI. For example, INTPs are told that they need to develop Fe to eventually mature, but the Enneagram takes a different tact: Five goes to Eight, which means the INTP grows by involving himself and trusting his instincts (TiNe working together) rather than sitting back detached and uninvolved in life. Those are both good strategies, and MBTI doesn't really engage the latter one.

One thing to be careful of is that there is no good map. Some types map easily, others do not. There have been numerous theoretical approaches as to what the map should (I've personally seen at least 4-5 different ones).
 

Xander

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By map I am assuming your meaning a kind of plan for development, linking to the other thread. As such, yes this is why I'm investigating where the two kinds of profiling integrate and to what extent they do. It's not really to develop a better typing system, though I very much think that it's possible to develop a more detailed typing system (which is not necessarily better), but more to try and find a few developmental hints and tips.

The reason for this line of thinking is that I've seen many people with problems and not all of them are adequately covered by the MBTI. The enneagram however seems to dovetail nicely with the MBTI and should therefore provide the much needed extra pointers.

As for the development of certain functions versus what enneagram you are, I think that this would be a dangerous route to follow. Myself being INTP9 I've been told I Ti the crap out of everything and yet Ti would fall more into the remit of the 5 in my opinion with the whole detatched intellectual.

Perhaps the relationship is more MBTI is what you do, enneagram is why you do it?
 

rivercrow

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Perhaps the relationship is more MBTI is what you do, enneagram is why you do it?

Bingo.

Different lenses. Don't use them to validate each other.

During my MBTI class, I spoke at length with a psychotherapist who has used Enneagram for 20+ years in her practice. There are behaviors that are similar--like an INTP, ISTP, and ISFJ will be surface-calm--what's under the hood is fundamentally different.

Incidentally, this is why I'm increasingly cautious about type-speculation based on observed behavior.
 

Xander

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Bingo.

Different lenses. Don't use them to validate each other.
Whoa!
Eh?

No not validate. The point is that the MBTI doesn't cover all. It can't. It's only looking at cognitive processes. So we must use another tool for something more. The enneagram seems to dovetail nicely. I'm just investigating the fit.
During my MBTI class, I spoke at length with a psychotherapist who has used Enneagram for 20+ years in her practice. There are behaviors that are similar--like an INTP, ISTP, and ISFJ will be surface-calm--what's under the hood is fundamentally different.
Right. That's what I was getting at. The thing is that even with all the information from the MBTI it's still quite murky. Basically you have to be a professional equiped with all the ifs, buts, whens, and maybes to go deep into MBTI. That's not much good to us mortals ;) Therefore I'm looking for another way. A way where I can type people according to both systems and them present them with options based on the interplay.
Incidentally, this is why I'm increasingly cautious about type-speculation based on observed behavior.
Oh hell yeah. Observation ain't sheet without context. Hence the pros get paid big bucks.
 

rivercrow

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Right. That's what I was getting at. The thing is that even with all the information from the MBTI it's still quite murky. Basically you have to be a professional equiped with all the ifs, buts, whens, and maybes to go deep into MBTI. That's not much good to us mortals ;) Therefore I'm looking for another way. A way where I can type people according to both systems and them present them with options based on the interplay.

Oh hell yeah. Observation ain't sheet without context. Hence the pros get paid big bucks.

So...you want a way to do what you just admitted can't be done: Type people based on observable behavior.
 

Totenkindly

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During my MBTI class, I spoke at length with a psychotherapist who has used Enneagram for 20+ years in her practice. There are behaviors that are similar--like an INTP, ISTP, and ISFJ will be surface-calm--what's under the hood is fundamentally different.

Yes, that's been a problem in what i see in many type readings -- the same observable behavior is attributed identical motivations, but people aren't realizing that different motivations might exist.

(Note: This is the same reason people have arguments, many times -- someone does something that means one thing in their lexicon, but the observed behavior means something different in the viewer's personal lexicon.)

Which is why I like a more holistic view. The theory gives a framework off which to understand and anticipate motivations, and then you can look at all the pieces of the person [behavior, speech, approach, style of thinking, focus, appearance, etc.] and see which alignment/type fits all the pieces. (i.e., how all the pieces... not just one... best click into place).
 

rivercrow

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Yes, that's been a problem in what i see in many type readings -- the same observable behavior is attributed identical motivations, but people aren't realizing that different motivations might exist.

This is why understanding your own type biases is so vital.
 

Xander

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So...you want a way to do what you just admitted can't be done: Type people based on observable behavior.
Who said a what now????

*taps microphone* this thing on?

:shock:

Context... CONTEXT!

Context..1..2...3

You can't type based on a list of tick boxes. It doesn't work. You CAN type based on observation IF your understanding of the MBTI is good enough and you have enough experience of it and it's implementation.

For example.. We know certain traits of one type. We know .. for example... if someone keeps questioning why they should do things that they are increasing the probability that they are an NT. It's not certain but at some point the probability must be high enough to treat it as a solid preference. Hence you can type people.
 

Totenkindly

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This is why understanding your own type biases is so vital.

Yes, not just for effective "type reading" but often to simply get past one's own crap and relationally maturing. (I know, for me, much of my anxiety in social settings came because I was completely misreading other people's motivations and opinions of me based on their comments/actions.)

Xander said:
For example.. We know certain traits of one type. We know .. for example... if someone keeps questioning why they should do things that they are increasing the probability that they are an NT. It's not certain but at some point the probability must be high enough to treat it as a solid preference.

eh, too vague still

For example, SJ types will question things as well -- but in a slightly different style and context. (The whole "authority" paradigm leads them to often behave either in the role of a "good citizen" or a "rebel." The rebel is constantly challenging things because their motivation is not to conform.) The NT questions things because he wants to know the answer, and gets mad at authority as a side issue because they interfere with the search for truth.

So one also looks at lots of other comments and behaviors and seeing how everything adds up. The more factors/data involved in the judgment, the better the judgment.
 

rivercrow

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You can't type based on a list of tick boxes. It doesn't work. You CAN type based on observation IF your understanding of the MBTI is good enough and you have enough experience of it and it's implementation.

For example.. We know certain traits of one type. We know .. for example... if someone keeps questioning why they should do things that they are increasing the probability that they are an NT. It's not certain but at some point the probability must be high enough to treat it as a solid preference. Hence you can type people.

Er, no.

You may hypothesize a type preference based on behavior.

For example:
  • If someone is stressed or has learned to adopt behaviors from a non-preferred function/attitude, then typing off observed behaviors will not be reliable.
  • If we agree with type development theory, then there could be a great difference between the behaviors of a given type at age 20, age 40, and age 55.
 

Xander

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Er, no.

You may hypothesize a type preference based on behavior.
Dude it's a theory. Chill. It's all hypothetical based upon it's own free standing standards and such. As such as long as it works, who cares.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but the whole of the MBTI is pretty much guestimations and theory.
For example:
  • If someone is stressed or has learned to adopt behaviors from a non-preferred function/attitude, then typing off observed behaviors will not be reliable.
  • If we agree with type development theory, then there could be a great difference between the behaviors of a given type at age 20, age 40, and age 55.
Exactly right. You as someone who has been taught such things will be aware that what your observing may be a result of that and so you are more aware. It's all about grabbing another percentage mark of certainty with typing there is no 100%.
 

Xander

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Yes, you are being argumentative. It's in your nature. :hug:
:rolleyes: I'm not alone :tongue10:
What I mean't was is that my motivation behind what I say is not to cause an argument. My points may lead to an argument till we agree or plateu in some other form.

So definately :hug: & :coffee:

Edit :-
Right now I'm out of work let me elaborate.

One first contact you have a 1in16 chance of getting a persons type right. The more things you witness and the more you know what key things to look for, such as the ENTJ way of coming up with a plan which should include everybody but is done their way, then you are more likely to get it right. You probably won't be able to tick every box and make it 100% but there again it was a person with observations who came up with the origional deliniations (Jung) so why can't someone do the same now?

I'm not saying that this is particularly good practice as it encourages others to think that they too can do it with less experience and insight which then often leads on to typist behaviour (no, not the one with RSI who gets chased around desks by the gaffer). However to say that you CAN'T do it is incorrect, it's just that there's a long list of caveats.
 

rivercrow

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:rolleyes: I'm not alone :tongue10:
What I mean't was is that my motivation behind what I say is not to cause an argument. My points may lead to an argument till we agree or plateu in some other form.

Dude, what's the midpoint on the MBTI scale in your sig?
 

Totenkindly

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You may hypothesize a type preference based on behavior.

just found this online, reading about Firo-B and thought it was very apropos.


Tip of The Iceberg
A major concern of mine is that people are left thinking that FIRO theory is primarily represented by the FIRO-B instrument and "needs" for inclusion, control and affection behaviors. This approach is inaccurate on the semantic level in that the word "need" is no longer part of the theory. It was replaced with "want." The behavioral aspect of the theory, measured by Element B, is only the tip of the iceberg.

Jung said that when he observed someone’s behavior he did not know what their type was because it was impossible to know what component of their psyche was actually causing the behaviors he was observing. FIRO theory says the same about behaviors. The largest and most important parts of the theory are the underlying causes of the behaviors. This is where Element F: Feelings and Element S: Self come in to play. To understand a person’s behavior one must, at a minimum, understand that person’s feelings, self-concept, self-esteem and fears. Just as the four-letter type code does not explain personality, neither do FIRO-B or even Element B explain FIRO theory.
 

ptgatsby

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The only proper way to integrate two theories is to work back from common words used to determine each respective type... For example, this is a test taken from 9 types;


I'd rather do things:
a) the right way than cut corners to increase efficiency
b) efficiently and successfully than perform perfectly
(Ranked from 1-5)

(+Type1,-Type3)

This is a similar question asked from a FFM test;

3. ...Does a thorough job

(C+)(Ranked from 1-5)

Therefore, certain traits within the Conscientious bucket in FFM will correlate to Type 1, and be anti-correlated to Type 2.

In practice, Enneagram doesn't correlate well at all (in part because there is no natural conversion, like with MBTI and FFM... and in part because the Enneagram uses pairs rather than distilled traits.)

The best thing to do with these kinds of tests is to really understand what is being tested and how it maps back to people's behavior. If you understand more than one system, rather than attempting to translate it back and forth, you can accept that each one measures different, if similar, things. As a tool, it helps you understand people just by knowing what they would answer. It's the best thing to aim for, especially at first.
 

Xander

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Dude, what's the midpoint on the MBTI scale in your sig?
Don't ask me. It doesn't make any sense but all the cool kids were doing it so I assumed it was informative to someone. You know how I like to be clear of where I'm coming from ;)

I quized my father on the percentages idea. He was horrified. "Your either an INTP or your not." was the response.

I've never really worried that according to the numbers I'm hardly INTP at all.

Fortunato,
That quoted piece has to have been written by someone who studied law. All it needs to do is talk about people as "the party of the first part" and "the party of the second part" to complete the picture. IOW I think there's a lot simpler way of expressing what they were saying, which doesn't fill me with confidence in what they were saying. Why did you find it useful?

ptGatsby,
You may well be right that the enneagram and the MBTI are fundamentally different. That is however semi irrelevant. If all you can end up with when combining these two results from two different tools is that each of the sixteen MBTI types are then further broken down into enneagram numbers then that's how far it goes. I think that it's a little more involved than that. For one when my father read through the description of a 9 he said it sounded like the description for an INFP. Now it's kinda strange don't you think that I just happen to be an INTP who tests well for F?

Of course I am no rosetta stone but it does get me thinking.

Another thing which occurs is how so many INTPs seem to be 5s. Such correlations would suggest that there's some kind of link even if you are testing in two very different ways.

One thing which does occur to me is that it is potentially possible that it's the same things which are being tested but due to the nature of the enneagram and it's history then the advice and analysis given is very different. In which case I'd think it'd make a lot of sense to try to completely map one onto the other so that both sides of the advice can be cross referenced and found in one source.

I think I could well be being an idealist with typing theories. Oh well I was accused of rarely expressing 1. I think this is a good example of when I do...
 

ptgatsby

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You may well be right that the enneagram and the MBTI are fundamentally different. That is however semi irrelevant. If all you can end up with when combining these two results from two different tools is that each of the sixteen MBTI types are then further broken down into enneagram numbers then that's how far it goes. I think that it's a little more involved than that. For one when my father read through the description of a 9 he said it sounded like the description for an INFP. Now it's kinda strange don't you think that I just happen to be an INTP who tests well for F?

I wouldn't say they are different, only that it'll be hard to integrate them.

However, I have to disagree than MBTI can be broken down further into Enneagram components. Systems like this don't sit on top of each other, they sit side by side. In general, one who tests 7w8 should never show up as an INTP, just as 1w2 shouldn't either.

Most INTPs test as 5s because most of the key descriptors from MBTI and Ennegram crossover there. MBTI also assumes a more forced distribution than the Enneagram, meaning that INxPs will tend to test some form of 456-9. This is a flaw with MBTI moreso than the Enneagram (though the lack of 4w9 kind of stuff is a flaw with the Enneagram).

I guess what I'm saying is that the only place you can really start from is looking at the question - if you want to get to know someone, ask them "Are you introverted?" You can only ask it so many ways... it always means something similar. Whether you model this into INTP with the functional hierarchies, or into the Enneagram with wings... that's up to you... lots of models Just don't forget what was asked!

(And to reiterate, all models cross over to some degree. Enneagram doesn't translate well because it uses 9 points of interactive themes, where MBTI uses 4 points of traits. MBTI translates to FFM because it FFM uses 5 points of traits.)
 

rivercrow

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<Snarky comment>

Lock up the windmills! We're questing for a grand unifying theory of type!

</Snarky comment>
 
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