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Sum Typing

Vendrah

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In this thread I am going to show my new typing method calling Sum Typing.
Its meant to assist typing in test results, it is not a text typing method (not a method to assist typing people on text).

Sum Typing is not really that much new, as some tests indirectly use it. The idea is plain simple: Attribute a stack - any stack at the beginning - for each type, just for example INFP = 1.5*Fi + 1*Ne + 0.5*Si - 0.5*Te. And then, using the test results, calculate for which type the person have the most points and - viola! - that's the person type.

As I said, it can be any stack, but, of course, if the stack is screwed up and unrealistic, the results will end up badly. It can even works for less or more than 16 types. Just for example:
Sensor: Se+Si
Intuitive: Ne+Ni

And goes on.

I had a look on some few dozens of results on Sakinorva, forum test and Dario Nardi test, and based on how people type themselves on their profiles, I had tuned the best fit stack (that can have some theory) for every type. I did it manually, result could be a little bit better if I still had MATLAB for optimizing it (it would require quite some programming still, dont know if I even remember how to do it). I found out that the achile heels is quite unreliable (the Te for INFP, Ne for ISFJ, etc...). I made a test with this method and with the stack I tuned, with some assist (like E/I questions). Here it is the final stack I tuned:

Weights: 3-2-1
INFP: Fi-Ne-Ni
INFJ: Ni-Fe-Fi
INTP: Ti-Ne-Ni
INTJ: Ni-Te-Ti
ENFP: Ne-Fi-Fe
ENTP: Ne-Ti-Te
ENFJ: Fe-Ni-Ne
ENTJ: Te-Ni-Ne
ISFP: Fi-Se-Si
ISTP: Ti-Se-Si
ISFJ: Si-Fe-Fi
ISTJ: Si-Te-Ti
ESTP: Se-Ti-Te
ESTJ: Te-Si-Se
ESFP: Se-Fi-Fe
ESFJ: Fe-Si-Se

Some observations for this stack:
- Of course it isnt fixed, Im not meaning that INFPs always and must have Fi as a first, Ne as a second and Ni as tertiary function. Its an "ideal INFP" that has that, however my ideal INFP is not that much unrealistic (just go to a thread of cognitive function tests and you will see).
- Yep, it did better than Fi-Ne-Si-Te (Grant Stack), and Fi-Ne-Si-Te is not a law at all (and as a fixed stack it failed).
- The tertiary is quite personal and test results are distorted by some things. For example, the best fit for ENFP 7 is Ne-Se-Fi or Ne-Fi-Se instead.
- Every cousin share at least the first function or two functions (there is no "INTJ and INTP doesnt share functions" thing).
- When a person have a borderline on the first function department, for example ENFJ with borderline in F/T, this method tends to struggle a bit but it still works.

Thats it! Simpler and shorter this time.
 

miss deceit

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I do like these stacks, because of the correlation to Socionics. What we get in socionics is dimensions and valued/unvalued. So to use ENTp/ILE as an example, ENTPs have 4D Ne (valued) and Te (unvalued) and their Ti is 3D but valued which creates a similar Ne-Ti-Te stack ordered by "strength". Socionics Model G takes this one further and uses NeTx to refer to ENTp as opposed to NeTi.
 

Pionart

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This is in concord with my secondary types model, where for example, INFJ has secondary INFP frequently, so a higher Fi than expected.
 

Vendrah

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I do like these stacks, because of the correlation to Socionics. What we get in socionics is dimensions and valued/unvalued. So to use ENTp/ILE as an example, ENTPs have 4D Ne (valued) and Te (unvalued) and their Ti is 3D but valued which creates a similar Ne-Ti-Te stack ordered by "strength". Socionics Model G takes this one further and uses NeTx to refer to ENTp as opposed to NeTi.

I didnt knew that, where you read it?

This is in concord with my secondary types model, where for example, INFJ has secondary INFP frequently, so a higher Fi than expected.

Yeah, that pretty much fixes the "INFP and INFJ doesnt share any functions and are completely different" (or the same for INTJ and INTP).
 

Vendrah

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I do like these stacks, because of the correlation to Socionics. What we get in socionics is dimensions and valued/unvalued. So to use ENTp/ILE as an example, ENTPs have 4D Ne (valued) and Te (unvalued) and their Ti is 3D but valued which creates a similar Ne-Ti-Te stack ordered by "strength". Socionics Model G takes this one further and uses NeTx to refer to ENTp as opposed to NeTi.

I had a quick look into wikisocion and what you say makes a lot of sense.
However, I did these fits with MBTI J/P on mind and not Jung J/P. I have been in trouble into trying to fit a tertiary in R/I (Jung J/P), although conceptually it is easy, it doesnt show up properly on the data (and re-filtering and re-arranging types into R/I is a huge work).

I have a different Jung interpretation and that is that Jung types, with pairings, are actually 32 types. In other words, the pair for Ne can be Fe,Fi,Te and Ti. The literal interpretation of chapter X (alone) is that. If there are 32 pairs, the pair Ne-Te and Ne-Ti would be united into ENTP, and since "my" data has been mostly based on Dario Nardi test that forces pairing (they have a question that score for Ti and Ne at the same time, same for the other 7 pairs), that would give Ne-Ti-Te for ENTP (same pattern for rest). If you go into test results thread from the main 3 tests here - Sakinorva, local test and keys2cognition - you see a lot of cases with people being Ti-Ni, its fairly common, which pretty supports my interpretation. Even if my interpretation is not correct, it is the best interpretation for these data. I would not complain that much about MBTI although, Ti-Ni and Ti-Ne arent that much different.
 

Pionart

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Yeah, that pretty much fixes the "INFP and INFJ doesnt share any functions and are completely different" (or the same for INTJ and INTP).

You still haven't caught onto function order yet though. INFJ is still Ni-Fe-Ti-Se--Ne-Fi-Te-Si, because when in INFJ mode, that is generally how one's functions play out.

So you haven't got Ni-Fe-Fi, but rather Ni-Fe with elements of Fi-Ne.
 

Pionart

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I said that Feeling overlaps with emotion, so there are emotions that are and aren't linked to Feeling.

Here's how it seems to work (not original ideas: I'm paraphrasing someone else):

Happy and sad are linked to the inner feeling states of Fi, whereas Fe is more about social emotions of giving off warmth and hostility.

The emotions of anger, shame and fear (e.g. enneagram) are a different spectrum of emotions, not linked to Feeling per se.

This may not be correct, but it is what I'm working with.
 

Vendrah

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You still haven't caught onto function order yet though. INFJ is still Ni-Fe-Ti-Se--Ne-Fi-Te-Si, because when in INFJ mode, that is generally how one's functions play out.

So you haven't got Ni-Fe-Fi, but rather Ni-Fe with elements of Fi-Ne.

Of course I did, and I did quit it.
Also, the other post is in the wrong thread.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Universal consecutive function order is a myth, as is "looping". Some people actually thrive spending the majority of their existence in the first and third functions in combination. That's why we have naturally extra introverted and extra extroverted people. When pulled back and observed at scale, the contrast is striking and the validity obvious.
 

Vendrah

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Universal consecutive function order is a myth, as is "looping". Some people actually thrive spending the majority of their existence in the first and third functions in combination. That's why we have naturally extra introverted and extra extroverted people. When pulled back and observed at scale, the contrast is striking and the validity obvious.

I dont think you truly understood the method here.
You dont need to fullfill the whole stack, it serves as a best fit finder.
For example, if you get Fi>Ni>Ti>Ne its completely fine for INFP.
My tertiary is just a fit, and as I mentioned before but I didnt updated, I believe that there are Fi-Ni or Fi-Ne INFP as well. Also, there is no loop on my method, I never mentioned in such thing. So far the maximum thing that can have is a weak/short first function, such as INFP with Ni-Fi-Ne (requires low Fe to not get INFJ).
 

Peter Deadpan

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I dont think you truly understood the method here.
You dont need to fullfill the whole stack, it serves as a best fit finder.
For example, if you get Fi>Ni>Ti>Ne its completely fine for INFP.
My tertiary is just a fit, and as I mentioned before but I didnt updated, I believe that there are Fi-Ni or Fi-Ne INFP as well. Also, there is no loop on my method, I never mentioned in such thing. So far the maximum thing that can have is a weak/short first function, such as INFP with Ni-Fi-Ne (requires low Fe to not get INFJ).

No, what I am saying is that FiNi would still be ISFP, but with a preference for Ni over Se. Having two introverted functions at top would make such an individual highly introspective and a bit more detached from the external world. Same with NiFi, which would still be INTJ function wise, and yet still technically an NF instead of an NT.

This all makes perfect sense and fills in the gaps that Jungian/MB fail to explain. Viewing type this way is much more fully inclusive of the diversity of human cognition.
 

Vendrah

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No, what I am saying is that FiNi would still be ISFP, but with a preference for Ni over Se. Having two introverted functions at top would make such an individual highly introspective and a bit more detached from the external world. Same with NiFi, which would still be INTJ function wise, and yet still technically an NF instead of an NT.

This all makes perfect sense and fills in the gaps that Jungian/MB fail to explain. Viewing type this way is much more fully inclusive of the diversity of human cognition.

Universal consecutive function order is a myth, as is "looping".

You say that the loop is a myth and then you mention me a Fi-Ni loop?

Jungian doesnt have the whole solid stacks, they all come from Grant. Actually, Jung INFP is likely a Fi-Ni type and INFJ is likely a Ni-Fi in Jung (actually, to be more precise and jumping to Jung J/P, INFJ would be Fi-Ni and INFP would be Ni-Fi), what you say "too much introversion" is actually the point of Jung analysis, this detachment is a point of Jung introversion. And secondly, a loose model is way more diverse than a fixed stack.
 

Peter Deadpan

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You say that the loop is a myth and then you mention me a Fi-Ni loop?

Jungian doesnt have the whole solid stacks, they all come from Grant. Actually, Jung INFP is likely a Fi-Ni type and INFJ is likely a Ni-Fi in Jung (actually, to be more precise and jumping to Jung J/P, INFJ would be Fi-Ni and INFP would be Ni-Fi), what you say "too much introversion" is actually the point of Jung analysis, this detachment is a point of Jung introversion. And secondly, a loose model is way more diverse than a fixed stack.

What I am saying is that the concept of looping is erroneous. It's merely a natural preference.

I'm gonna be straight with you: I honestly don't care about Jungian or Grant models or whatever. I think typology needs to evolve, expand, and move forward with greater objectivity and consideration of variation. At this point in time, the only approach I've seen that comes even close to classifying human cognition in a way that makes sense is the Objective Personality System, which as it stands is up to 512 types, all based off of the 16 core types.

But, I'm not really interested in selling you on a new system... more proclaiming that I don't care to get too into debate or an in-depth discussion about the types according to what I consider to be a dated approach and perspective.
 

miss deceit

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Found this comment a while back that really sums up Objective Personality, can't remember where I got it from but it's pretty accurate.

DaveSuperPowers' marketing strategies: "90% of people type themselves upside down, if you want to know your real type you have to give me $20 for several months and then hundreds more to type you. Every other system is wrong, mine is scientific. 50% of people have their second and third functions switched around, I came up with this theory when I couldn't type a school shooter: I'm an INTJ with demon Te and my wife an ENTJ with demon Ni. MBTI is garbage, my system is not MBTI, but i use the 4-letter MBTI types to take people's money. Give me your money now, I promise my system will be proven scientific in 20 years"
 

Vendrah

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What I am saying is that the concept of looping is erroneous. It's merely a natural preference.

I'm gonna be straight with you: I honestly don't care about Jungian or Grant models or whatever. I think typology needs to evolve, expand, and move forward with greater objectivity and consideration of variation. At this point in time, the only approach I've seen that comes even close to classifying human cognition in a way that makes sense is the Objective Personality System, which as it stands is up to 512 types, all based off of the 16 core types.

But, I'm not really interested in selling you on a new system... more proclaiming that I don't care to get too into debate or an in-depth discussion about the types according to what I consider to be a dated approach and perspective.

I appreciate [MENTION=34990]miss deceit[/MENTION] counterpoint, and I also have a little bit on my own.

Regardless Dave system, the worst culprit of any Objective Typing is the persona.
If you havent read it, it is a Jungian term, there are resumes out there including Wikipedia.
The worst fear of me into type me threads is to end up typing the persona rather than the person.
There are other counter-points into Dave specifically on the specific thread. I already read that thread.
 

Peter Deadpan

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I appreciate [MENTION=34990]miss deceit[/MENTION] counterpoint, and I also have a little bit on my own.

Regardless Dave system, the worst culprit of any Objective Typing is the persona.
If you havent read it, it is a Jungian term, there are resumes out there including Wikipedia.
The worst fear of me into type me threads is to end up typing the persona rather than the person.
There are other counter-points into Dave specifically on the specific thread. I already read that thread.

Don't you base all of your "research" on the self-typing results of strangers in the internet?

I'm not trying to be hostile, honestly... I just think this is like a cast iron tea kettle calling a cauldron black.
 

miss deceit

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I appreciate [MENTION=34990]miss deceit[/MENTION] counterpoint, and I also have a little bit on my own.

Regardless Dave system, the worst culprit of any Objective Typing is the persona.
If you havent read it, it is a Jungian term, there are resumes out there including Wikipedia.
The worst fear of me into type me threads is to end up typing the persona rather than the person.
There are other counter-points into Dave specifically on the specific thread. I already read that thread.

Another thing that I see an issue with regarding Dave/Objective Personality is... who typed him and his wife? Because for his point to stand true he'd have to teach the system to one other person to the point where they meet Dave's standard so they can have at least two people typing them - assuming that Dave is one of the people who typed his wife and Shannon (his wife) is one of the people who typed Dave. If these criteria weren't met then they lose a lot of credit because their self typings wouldn't be in line with the shit they preach to everyone else.

Besides that, I just see their system as a pure cash grab designed to make money off naive people. I mean, I decided to pay for 1 month of their class to check it out and that confirmed it for me. Firstly, their "class" is essentially just a huge list of videos with hardly any of it organised, and there is no written versions of the information they give out so if you want to find something that isn't in the 9 beginner videos, you have to trawl through all of their content to find anything. Those initial 9 beginner videos by the way, bombard you with "you're mistyped" "you don't know yourself" shit in order to try and get you to pay for their typing. The typing itself, requires you to have been in the class for at least 2 months ($19 per month, using American currency as that is what is on their site) and $119 for the typing itself. So we're currently at $157, but it doesn't stop there.
You have to fill out the form very quickly when it opens at the beginning of each month in order to make sure you get in, and if you miss that you have to wait a whole month extra for another attempt at getting in. Every time you miss a month, that's an extra $19

- - - Updated - - -

That's a super simplistic unoriginal criticism of the system that doesn't even stand on two uneven sawed-off legs. This is the garbage that people spew forth in an effort to make themselves look smart without putting any of the effort into critical thought themselves.

Oh... and... I have absolutely zero problem with actually criticizing the system, Dave and Shannon, the social structure (cult-y or otherwise), or even their profitable approach, but if you are going to do it, then actually do it instead of half-assing by regurgitating someone else's half-digested thought vomit.

Lol using terms like "spew" and "vomit" doesn't make you sound smart. Get new material.
 

Vendrah

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Don't you base all of your "research" on the self-typing results of strangers in the internet?

I'm not trying to be hostile, honestly... I just think this is like a cast iron tea kettle calling a cauldron black.

Yep, its indeed "research" with "".
I dont have the resources to do the research without the "".

And yep, but I did paid attention to multiple sources on multiple websites. The fits that I draw here are good fits for the local forum test, for keys2cognition and somewhat to Sakinorva. Other resources might apply as well. I gathered results from here, PersonalityCafe, INFJ forum, INTP Forum, INTP Complex and there is more as far as I remember. And I had done a test [EDIT: Limited, just shows the type result in the end, couldnt do a one that has functions and type] using this method myself, I fixed some questions and in the end it did works quite fine. Most tests results will work better using these stacks for typing than the regular one we use.

So, basically, my fit here is far from coming out of nowhere.

"I just think this is like a cast iron tea kettle calling a cauldron black." - Dont have any idea what that means.
 

Pionart

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Of course I did, and I did quit it.
Also, the other post is in the wrong thread.

It is too. Not sure how that happened.

Also I'm wondering what sort of investigation you did to try and uncover the "Grant" function order? Hint: it won't show up in test results. You may need to use forum posts.
 
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