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  1. #1
    Remember, Humanity. Vendrah's Avatar
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    Default Jung J/P (rational/irrational) versus MBTI J/P: Do they even correlate?

    It seems to me that there is two different concepts, which created to me a lot of confusion in the past and still do in those days, of J/P dimension, and what it means being rational or irrational in MBTI and/or Jung. Maybe Myers misinterpreted Jung or she created something awkwardly different or new from it.
    Do anyone have Jung description on rational vs irrational?

    The cognitive functions of J at Myers are Ni, Si, Te, Fe (the ones that belongs to types with J).
    The rational cognitive functions of Jung, which seems to be Jung judging functions, are Te,Ti,Fe and Fi.
    The cognitive functions of P at Myers are Fi, Ti, Ne, Se.
    The irrational cognitive functions of Jung, Jung perceveing functions, are Ne, Ni, Se, Si.

    Ni and Si are J functions for MBTI and yet they are perceveing/irrational for Jung.
    Fi and Ti are P functions for MBTI and yet they are judging/rational for Jung.
    With the concept of a cognitive function dom in mind (Ni-dom, Fi-dom, etc...) and pairing concept in mind (Se-Fi, Ti-Ne, etc..), it seems that in Jung, MBTI INTJ, INFJ, ISTJ and ISFJ (Si and Ni-doms) becomes INTp, INFp, ISTp and ISFp in Jung.
    It seems that in Jung, MBTI INFP, ISFP, INTP and ISTP becomes INFj, ISFj, INTj and ISTp.
    That actually corresponds to Socionics "mess" in p/j.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2

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    I think J/P is the most pointless distinction of all.
    I'm not crying... I'm just haunted by onions.

  3. #3
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    Irrational is the quality of not established by reasoning or are not based on reasoning nor it is in accordance with reason nor it is subsumes to the reason nor it needs reasoning. In Jungian psychological function, Irrationality is the main characteristics of the perceptive functions: the extroverted sensation, introverted sensation and extroverted intuition and introverted intuition. One of the example of irrationality that I can tell which is only perceivable of intuition is meaning of words. They are established without reasoning without inquiry to reason. We wouldn't ask why mother means someone who gave birth to us. Posing the question would be committing complex question to the question raiser since he assume the meaning of mother is someone who gave birth to us has a reasoning behind. When somebody say the word, he already conveyed the meaning conceived by the word mother and when the person he or she communicates with understand the word, and he pose the question what does mother mean to himself, the meaning of the word mother will just pop up in his mind.
    Rational is the opposite of irrational. When something is rational, it is usually grounded, established, in accordance, with reasoning. The fact that we the member of typoc discusses in Typoc Comunity online has to be grounded based on reasoning. For example, My reason to discuss here is I am having a hard time finding a discussion partner in real life. Try asking your colleagues, if you are working professionaly, or your classmates, if you are in school, whether they are willing to discuss about typology with you, and you might find it is not easy. You will face a rejection sometimes, since they might not have the same interest with you in the typology topic, they may be interested but they are busy at the moment you ask them, and so on. The easier way is to browse on the internet and just write and post and other who is interested also might read it and give some response to our posting.
    You should realize, discussing online in Typoc forum is a decision that is grounded or established based on some of reasons I exemplified above and you are probably have myriad of reasons that I may not even know. The decision hence rational. If you do not have any more reasons to participate in the discussion anylonger, you might leave the forum. This is the character of rationality, it is established and de-established based on reasoning.
    All of the four judging functions: introverted feeling, introverted thinking, extroverted thinking, extroverted feeling has an inherent rational character that they have to have solid reasoning to be established upon their judgements.

  4. #4
    Remember, Humanity. Vendrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by typologyenthusiast View Post
    Irrational is the quality of not established by reasoning or are not based on reasoning nor it is in accordance with reason nor it is subsumes to the reason nor it needs reasoning. In Jungian psychological function, Irrationality is the main characteristics of the perceptive functions: the extroverted sensation, introverted sensation and extroverted intuition and introverted intuition. One of the example of irrationality that I can tell which is only perceivable of intuition is meaning of words. They are established without reasoning without inquiry to reason. We wouldn't ask why mother means someone who gave birth to us. Posing the question would be committing complex question to the question raiser since he assume the meaning of mother is someone who gave birth to us has a reasoning behind. When somebody say the word, he already conveyed the meaning conceived by the word mother and when the person he or she communicates with understand the word, and he pose the question what does mother mean to himself, the meaning of the word mother will just pop up in his mind.
    Rational is the opposite of irrational. When something is rational, it is usually grounded, established, in accordance, with reasoning. The fact that we the member of typoc discusses in Typoc Comunity online has to be grounded based on reasoning. For example, My reason to discuss here is I am having a hard time finding a discussion partner in real life. Try asking your colleagues, if you are working professionaly, or your classmates, if you are in school, whether they are willing to discuss about typology with you, and you might find it is not easy. You will face a rejection sometimes, since they might not have the same interest with you in the typology topic, they may be interested but they are busy at the moment you ask them, and so on. The easier way is to browse on the internet and just write and post and other who is interested also might read it and give some response to our posting.
    You should realize, discussing online in Typoc forum is a decision that is grounded or established based on some of reasons I exemplified above and you are probably have myriad of reasons that I may not even know. The decision hence rational. If you do not have any more reasons to participate in the discussion anylonger, you might leave the forum. This is the character of rationality, it is established and de-established based on reasoning.
    All of the four judging functions: introverted feeling, introverted thinking, extroverted thinking, extroverted feeling has an inherent rational character that they have to have solid reasoning to be established upon their judgements.
    I read Chapter X in Jung and it seems like you said.
    I understand it, I still wonder why Myers modifided this concept so much.

  5. #5
    Junior Member crustydemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vendrah View Post
    I read Chapter X in Jung and it seems like you said.
    I understand it, I still wonder why Myers modifided this concept so much.
    In MBTI the J and P are determined by the first extroverted function. The second thing is Judging and Perceiving in MBTI doesn't mean what Jung's does.

    Judging in MBTI means organized, timely and orderly. Perceiving means open, disorganized and free-spirited.


    Ni and Si are not Ji functions in MBTi but Ni and Si doms' first extroverted function is a judging one.

    Jung and Co called the types by their dominant followed by their auxiliary functions instead of P/J in a dichotomy.

    Socionics has the right idea if you are going deep into someone's cognition. MBTI seems to be based on outward behavior.

    So, there is added emphasis on the first extroverted function.

  6. #6
    Scary old man OldFolksBoogie's Avatar
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    In Jung, it's rather simple: N & S are the irrational functions (also called perceiving functions), and F & T are the rational functions (also called judging functions).

    In MBTI it's more complicated:

    MBTI basically agrees with Jung that N&S = perceiving and F&T = judging. However in the MBTI-based personality types, the last letter of each type (P or J for perceiving or judging) is just a marker. The last letter is just a placeholder that simply designates your topmost extraverted function. In other words, that last letter simply designates how a certain type will deal with the external world. Or to put it another way, the last letter designates whether people are using a perceiving function (Ne&Se) or a judging function (Fe&Te) as their primary way of dealing with the objects and people in the external world around them.

    Why does MBTI work that way? Because MBTI is all about how people deal with the external world. Remember that MBTI was developed in part as a career placement testing device--its most obvious commercial application, anyway. So it was important to designate how people extravert; in other words, it was important to designate whether people will use a perceiving function (Ne&Se) or a judging function (Fe&Te) when they are on the production line dealing with the objects and people in the external world around them.
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  7. #7
    Scary old man OldFolksBoogie's Avatar
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    As for why Jung considered N&S to be irrational/perceiving functions versus F&T as rational/judging functions: See "Psychological Types," chapter XI ("Definitions), and look up the definitions for "rational" and "irrational." (And also "sensation," "intuition," etc.)

    But just to put my own spin on it:

    Jung doesn't get into it much in "Psychological Types," but it seems like he considered N&S to be the earliest functions (developmentally speaking), whereas F&T develop later. For example, Jung says a couple times that F&T develop out of N&S.

    In other words, developmentally speaking, it appears that N&S develop before our analytical abilities develop, so N&S just focus on "perceiving" the world around us and taking it in and playing with it in a creative manner. Whereas F&T arise later; they bring the analytical abilities into play and thus they "judge" the world and slice it and dice it for organization and analysis. (Again, I'm talking here about the infantile, "developmental" stages of the functions, and not the adult, fully-developed versions of the functions.)
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  8. #8
    Remember, Humanity. Vendrah's Avatar
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    I already did developed my own conclusions on this subject that doesnt seem much different as others pointed here.
    "Jung J/P is conceived as rational/irrational. There are rational types, and these are Jung judgers, and there are irrational types, and these are Jung perceveirs. Jung does not address rational/irrational directly on that chapter. It is important to first note that Jung rational/irrational is different than wikipedia and common rational/irrational. Jung irrational is not about being emotive, while Jung rational is not about being rational opposed to emoctions. Jung rational/irrational doesnt correlate at all with emotions. Common sense irrationality is described as being bad, Jung irrationality is just a matter of preference. In a short resume, for Jung, a rational type is a person which guides him/herself with a judging cognitive function (Fe, Fi, Te, Ti), if a pure type. If not a pure type, a long discussion can start, but mainly should, at least in my opinion, follow the formula (Fe+Fi+Te+Ti>Ne+Ni+Se+Si). However, we can state that on a dichotomy sense, which is the point of view which I prefer the reader to follow, that a rational person does decisions towards the T/F MBTI dimension, while the irrational person does decisions towards MBTI N/S dimension. I dindt oscilate between rational/irrational towards this subject because it would be confusing, but here are text examples:
    - In my own perception, Fi is kind of a confusing and mythical cognitive function. Sometimes it seems to judge people, while sometimes it seems to clearly forgive them with compassion. It sounds to me so confusing in this point, what is Fi exactly? [this is irrational form of text, oscilating between subjective in the first line, objective in the second and subjective on the third line]
    - To Jung perspective frame, Fi is a judging function, while for Myers perspection frame, Fi is a perceveing function. In this point, this feels confusing and may confuse to anyone reading the concepts. Considering these theorical frames, what is FI exactly [this is the rational form of text, being objective in the first line, subjective in the second line, and coming back to objective on the third line]

    Just in case you reader (mixed subjective and objectivity here on purpose) havent noticed, Fi is a perceveing judging function. Its perceveing on Myers and judging (rational) on Jung."
    I posted it here:
    Can someone please help type me?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldFolksBoogie View Post
    Why does MBTI work that way? Because MBTI is all about how people deal with the external world. Remember that MBTI was developed in part as a career placement testing device--its most obvious commercial application, anyway. So it was important to designate how people extravert; in other words, it was important to designate whether people will use a perceiving function (Ne&Se) or a judging function (Fe&Te) when they are on the production line dealing with the objects and people in the external world around them.
    At the end of the day, Carl Jung I/E does not even properly correlates with MBTI I/E, giving origins to some weird introverted extraverted people or the opposite.

    Your view is interesting and seems a lot right, but it clashes with what I think. I think that there is a good chance that most people would be pretty ambivalent in Jung J/P (on the internet they are, although I only analysed very few cases), with most people not having a heavy rational or irrational preference at all, and since having too much people on the middle compromises the reliability on the MBTI test as they are measured, I think that Myers swapped J/P definitions so she could get people with more preferences and less neutrality. It would be too bad for any typing system to have a dichotomy that the majority of people on the world doesnt have a clear preference.

  9. #9
    Scary old man OldFolksBoogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vendrah View Post
    I already did developed my own conclusions on this subject that doesnt seem much different as others pointed here. [...snipped]
    Your post started out okay, but around the part where you were talking about Fi, it went off-track. You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vendrah View Post
    To Jung perspective frame, Fi is a judging function, while for Myers perspection frame, Fi is a perceveing function.
    That's incorrect. Fi is always a rational/judging function. Because the F function (covering both Fe and Fi) is always a rational/judging function.

    MBTI doesn't say that Fi is a perceiving function. Here is what MBTI says:

    The top two functions for an INFP are Dom Fi (a judging function) and Aux Ne (a perceiving function). But when assigning a P or a J to a personality type, MBTI only cares about one question: What's your top extraverted function? Out of its two top functions, INFP uses its perceiving function (Ne) to deal with the world. As a result, MBTI considers INFP to be a perceiving personality type. The top extraverted function for INFPs is Ne, so INFPs get assigned a P.

    In the meantime, MBTI doesn't say anything particular about Fi one way or the other. It's just taken for granted that Fi is a judging function. But Fi doesn't come into play when MBTI labels INFPs as perceiving types, because Fi is hidden away from the world. As far as labeling types P or J, MBTI is only concerned about what your top extraverted function is. Because MBTI only cares what function you use in the outside world. (I already explained the reasons why MBTI chooses to designate type this way in my previous post on the subject.)

    I don't know how to state that any more clearly.

    Meantime, you raised a separate issue about ambivalent types:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vendrah View Post
    I think that there is a good chance that most people would be pretty ambivalent in Jung J/P (on the internet they are, although I only analysed very few cases), with most people not having a heavy rational or irrational preference at all, and since having too much people on the middle compromises the reliability on the MBTI test as they are measured [...]
    Ambivalence on the J/P scale doesn't arise from the functions themselves. Instead, ambivalence arises because every adult has one perceiving function and also one judging function in his top two functions (the Dom and Aux functions).

    Think about it. As an INFP, I have a judging function (Fi) working together with a perceiving function (Ne) in my Dom and Aux functions. As a result:
    • Sometimes I'm operating in Judging mode, mainly with internal things that I think about, via use of my Fi.
    • At other times I'm operating in Perceiving mode, mainly with external things that I deal with in the world around me, via use of my Ne.

    For example:
    As an Ne perceiver, I can be extremely flakey and playful and whimsical about things in the world around me. (That's my perceiving Ne at work.) But on the other hand, when I'm thinking hard about some ethical issue using my internal Fi judging function, I can be incredibly judgmental and even harsh in how I choose to view that issue. (That's my judging Fi at work.)

    In other words, like most adults I'm a judger about some things and a perceiver about other things. That's why it's so difficult to test for personality type. Because it isn't always clear which function is being used when an answer is chosen. Did the person answer according to his Dom function or his Aux function? Because every adult has one perceiving function and also one judging function in his top two functions (the Dom and Aux functions).

    As a result there tends to be a lot of ambivalence in how people deal with type-related questions or issues: Because they may be looking at things through the prism of their Dom function or the prism of their Aux function. And it's hard to tell which sometimes.

    Anyway, I'll stop there. Hope that helps.
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    Remember, Humanity. Vendrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFolksBoogie View Post
    Your post started out okay, but around the part where you were talking about Fi, it went off-track. You said:



    That's incorrect. Fi is always a rational/judging function. Because the F function (covering both Fe and Fi) is always a rational/judging function.

    MBTI doesn't say that Fi is a perceiving function. Here is what MBTI says:

    The top two functions for an INFP are Dom Fi (a judging function) and Aux Ne (a perceiving function). But when assigning a P or a J to a personality type, MBTI only cares about one question: What's your top extraverted function? Out of its two top functions, INFP uses its perceiving function (Ne) to deal with the world. As a result, MBTI considers INFP to be a perceiving personality type. The top extraverted function for INFPs is Ne, so INFPs get assigned a P.

    In the meantime, MBTI doesn't say anything particular about Fi one way or the other. It's just taken for granted that Fi is a judging function. But Fi doesn't come into play when MBTI labels INFPs as perceiving types, because Fi is hidden away from the world. As far as labeling types P or J, MBTI is only concerned about what your top extraverted function is. Because MBTI only cares what function you use in the outside world. (I already explained the reasons why MBTI chooses to designate type this way in my previous post on the subject.)

    I don't know how to state that any more clearly.

    Meantime, you raised a separate issue about ambivalent types:



    This is a separate issue. Ambivalence on the J/P scale doesn't arise from the functions themselves. Instead, ambivalence arises because every adult has one perceiving function and also one judging function in his top two functions (the Dom and Aux functions).

    Think about it. As an INFP, I have a judging function (Fi) working together with a perceiving function (Ne) in my Dom and Aux functions. As a result:
    • Sometimes I'm operating in Judging mode, mainly with internal things that I think about, via use of my Fi.
    • At other times I'm operating in Perceiving mode, mainly with external things that I deal with in the world around me, via use of my Ne.

    For example:
    As an Ne perceiver, I can be extremely flakey and playful and whimsical about things in the world around me. (That's my perceiving Ne at work.) But on the other hand, when I'm thinking hard about some ethical issue using my internal Fi judging function, I can be incredibly judgmental and even harsh in how I choose to view that issue. (That's my judging Fi at work.)

    In other words, like most adults I'm a judger about some things and a perceiver about other things. That's why it's so difficult to test for personality type. Because it isn't always clear which function is being used when an answer is chosen. Did the person answer according to his Dom function or his Aux function? Because every adult has one perceiving function and also one judging function in his top two functions (the Dom and Aux functions).

    Anyway, I'll stop there. Hope that helps.
    It is a little bit impossible to discuss this without framing my alternative views but I get why Myers would be only concerned about the extraverted cognitive function and makes sense. I could test that view (only use extraverted cognitive functions to determine J/P).

    Also, you said a very likely reason to why most people dont have a judging/perceveing preference on Jung (rational/irrational preference), it might be due to the pairing effect/tendency and due to deep function dynamics (dynamics on a sense through correlations).

    I dont completely subscribe and use the cognitive function stack as we know (INFP Fi-Ne-Si-Te), so Fi-Ne for INFP is not something I fully accept and I do have gathered stats with INFPs that prefers Ni over Ne, although people with Ni-Fi combo mostly end up typing themselves as INFJs (and there is an alternative function stack where INFP are Ni-Fi-Se-Te, something like that). I did develop almost a theory on my own, and basically I measure MBTI Perceveing using a borrowed formula from @Legion:
    J vs P (relation JP)
    Provided by @Legion
    Degree of preference for Perceveing: Ti+Fi+Se+Ne
    Degree of preference for Judgement: Te+Fe+Si+Ni
    Ti+Fi+Se+Ne>Te+Fe+Si+Ni translate as preference for perceveing
    Ti+Fi+Se+Ne<Te+Fe+Si+Ni translate as preference for judgement
    Ti+Fi+Se+Ne=Te+Fe+Si+Ni translate as no preference/ambivalence
    The complete theory is here, you dont need to look because its long:
    A new vision of MBTI and function stacks: Open function stack

    What I meant by Fi being MBTI perceveing is that Fi is on the MBTI perceveing side of the formula. If you were to measure Fi and correlate with dichotomies, you should expect that Fi correlates with Perceveing, with a general tendency that the stronger the Fi, stronger Perceveing is. However, as I did a measure of my own with 9 people (better than nothing), the correlation with perceveing and Fi is almost insignificant.

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