Jack Flak's Function System Adventure

[Jack Flak]

I didn't say it was perfect. There is a lot of work to be done. But you are rejecting the fundamentals upon which it is built - that is the framework.

Only some of them. The way I see it, the traditional sixteen type division is successful. It had to make good sense for Myers to release it, and it did. Some of the theory that went into it was erroneous and ill-defined. That's only important if people have ultimate faith in it. They shouldn't.

You keep functions in your 'system' because people don't want to live without them? I'm applying for your INTP membership card to be withdrawn.

NO YOURS. I find incorrectness to be supremely annoying, thus I prefer people to be correct.

No looks quite nice. Makes the whole thing simpler and less open to speculation

Thank you! A little appreciation goes a long way.

 

[Salomé]

NO YOURS. I find incorrectness to be supremely annoying, thus I prefer people to be correct.

I don't care whether people are correct or not - if everyone was correct, I'd have no-one to argue with - but I do like them to be rational.

 

[Nocapszy]

Yes, I humble myself before your prodigious intuitive capacity, however I pride myself in the tower of Thinking I loom over you.

 

[Jack Flak]

Yes, I humble myself before your prodigious intuitive capacity, however I pride myself in the tower of Thinking I loom over you.

I see our towers as relatively equal in height, but if you do not, well, that's something to be happy about.

Though I post mainly to say I've slightly altered the wording of the OP, and may continue to do so as long as my Edit clock is running.

 

[redacted]

DUDE, I know. And they'll be better off if they type themselves with this function order. No one save for maybe locke has brought up anything I haven't considered, and rejected or accepted.


You're showing just how INFJ you are in my system. Note: I do not think it is a bad thing to be INFJ. Your Feeling judgments are occupying more of your concentration than your Intuition is.


That's one way to put it, but I just consider the application. For example, Thinking is a tool which can be used on a variety of things.


NO U. But I really do, as well as almost anyone. Well enough to find flaws.

Whether you like it or not, your saying 1 of 2 things: either you want all introverts to switch J and P, or you're saying that their MBTI type is wrong in the original system but works in yours.

If you're an INTP in this system, you're either ENTP or INTJ in MBTI. A TYPE IN MBTI IS DETERMINED BY FUNCTION ORDER, NOT VICE VERSA!

 

[Nocapszy]

I see our towers as relatively equal in height, but if you do not, well, that's something to be happy about.

Though I post mainly to say I've slightly altered the wording of the OP, and may continue to do so as long as my Edit clock is running.

Impossible that INTP could be superior in both Thinking and Intuition where ENTP cannot.

Besides, in real life (outside of TypeTastic-HaHa!Land) I trump you and everyone on this forum in both respects.

 

[Jack Flak]

Whether you like it or not, your saying 1 of 2 things: either you want all introverts to switch J and P, or you're saying that their MBTI type is wrong in the original system but works in yours.

If you're an INTP in this system, you're either ENTP or INTJ in MBTI. A TYPE IN MBTI IS DETERMINED BY FUNCTION ORDER, NOT VICE VERSA!

The above defines Feeling as a dominant function, working in tandem with Intuition, which itself is working in tandem with Thinking to a lesser extent. A shoelace pattern: F is over T, and N is off to one side.

I am most certainly not saying that Introverts switch J and P. Did you happen to notice that the functions here do not have a defined E/I direction? This means, for one, that we have no "Dominant extroverted function." It solves the problems of MBTI and Socionics.

Nor am I saying their MBTI type has been wrong. I am saying the functions were defined improperly, and function order as we know it is useless conjecture.

Impossible that INTP could be superior in both Thinking and Intuition where ENTP cannot.

Besides, in real life (outside of TypeTastic-HaHa!Land) I trump you and everyone on this forum in both respects.

What I'm saying is that the types are theoretically equal in Intuition and Thinking capability, but one type is Introverted and one is Extroverted, accounting for the difference in personality. It's very simple...How could you not perceive this, with a mind like that?

 

[Simplexity]

Settle down guys. Everyone knows that feeling is like a seer it is all knowing, nothing else can measure up!

 

[mlittrell]

Define "need." MBTI functions are inaccurate. They are basically redefining concepts based on analysis of people. One small example which leads to immeasurable misunderstanding being:

The definitions of judging and perceiving are inconsistent.

Even if they were accurate, they would still be a problem, because many don't understand them. The simpler something is, the easier it is to be understood, as a rule.

simpler yet less effective

explain what this system does exactly.

 

[Jack Flak]

simpler yet less effective

explain what this system does exactly.

It describes mental process differences more accurately.

It cleans up J/P confusion, and brilliantly, if I may say so.

It allows credit to be given to people for what they are actually thinking or feeling, and how, instead of forcing something like "Fi" or "Fe," which rarely fit well to what's actually going on in their heads.

And it's a far better typing tool, if understood. It would make me so happy if you just "pretended" it was accurate, and analyzed people of known and unknown type, to see what you thought.

 

[mlittrell]

It describes mental process differences more accurately.

It cleans up J/P confusion, and brilliantly, if I may say so.

It allows credit to be given to people for what they are actually thinking or feeling, and how, instead of forcing something like "Fi" or "Fe," which rarely fit well to what's actually going on in their heads.

And it's a far better typing tool, if understood. It would make me so happy if you just "pretended" it's accurate, and analyzed people of known and unknown type, to see what you think.

there is not J/P confusion.

write a tutorial or profile for your system and ill be completely convinced.

 

[Haphazard]

A problem I see is that you go ahead and use a very objective and precise way of defining this stuff, which is 'time using a process'.

Which makes it a hundred times more variable. Someone could be an INTJ one day, INTP the next, ISTP another, and INFJ another... and so what, you have to choose by which one has the most time, even if they are all reasonably equal?

This system is completely different from MBTI and cannot be considered the same thing. It's about as close as socionics is -- and many people have different socionics and MBTI types.

 

[Jack Flak]

write a tutorial or profile for your system and ill be completely convinced.

That's tough. I'm no "writer." In short:

If a person seems to usually be focused on their environment in some way, they could be Sensing Primary.

If a person seems to occupy themselves with noticing things which may not be obvious, they could be Intuition Primary.

If a person seems to often rely on what they already know to make easy decisions regarding impersonal matters, they could be Thinking Primary.

If a person seems to often make easy decisions using their emotions (such that an action is morally wrong or right, for example), they could be Feeling Primary.

"More than the other three" is key, of course. If the Primary function is determined with confidence, apply the format again to possibly determine the Support function--Though you'll be choosing only between the two Functions of either Perceiving or Judging nature, the opposite of the Primary function, naturally.

And, of course, it should ideally be used in cooperation with whatever other effective methods you have at your disposal.

There is a great deal of information out there on the difference between introverts and extroverts, so I won't get into how to differentiate them here.

 

[entropie]

I guess you are lacking the thrill in the system @Jack.

If you have something like "your fourth function is Introverted Sensing" it will pick on peoples imagination and I guess especially Feeling types will try to sort their unknown habits into the system and then feel more identified after.

Your system is a short and clean one and I like it, because it leaves room for imagination and solves the conflict between understanding something like Introverted or Extroverted Intuition. But it lacks mystery and mystery sells best.

 

[Haphazard]

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler" ~ most famous INTP of all.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Jack Flak]

This is exactly what I was thinking.

*eats moar apple* Yes, I see you're using what you already know to make snap decisions regarding impersonal subjects such as my function system.

 

[Haphazard]

*eats moar apple* Yes, I see you're using what you already know to make snap decisions regarding impersonal subjects such as my function system.

But MBTI function order has nothing to do with the reason why you 'created' your system. MBTI function order was to create an archetype of what a function is to a person, not how often they use it. In fact, if I'd have to guess, 2nd function would be the least important or noticed function to that person, especially for extreme introverts/extroverts. Second function is the function of choice that the person usually uses to confront the 'world' (introverted or extroverted) that they are less comfortable with. Because you get rid of the dimension of introversion and extroversion, you completely scrap this idea, and create a system that is extremely fluid and can change as often as the status on one's facebook.

If this is what you wanted to create, then that's fine, but a 'simpler, better' version of MBTI, this certainly is not.

 

[entropie]

boooooooooring

 

[Orangey]

Well, I think that this system at least provides a more useful heuristic for typing other people based on their observable behavior. There was too much ambiguity in the definitions for the introverted and extroverted functions to begin with, and this clears up some of the contradictions between the function theory and the type descriptions that tended to bother me.

For example, the type descriptions of INTJ tend to focus on how well they are able to make decisions and formulate contingency plans using the information at hand, yet states later that their dominant function is intuition (a perceiving, not decision making function). And INTP's usually get a more "indecisive" treatment in the descriptions, yet are assigned thinking, a decision making function, as their dominant function. Plus there was usually disagreement (on this board as well as others) on what behaviors or thoughts or feelings counted as the "introverted" or "extroverted" type, and a lot of the time they could be either, or the difference simply is not clear.

Edit: I also think that this clears up the ambiguity of Fi and Ti especially, since they are usually treated as more "mystical" versions of the extroverted kind. By making intuition the dominant function for certain types (I am thinking mostly of INFP, INTP, ENTP, and ENFP), this allows thinking and feeling to be collapsed (in terms of introverted and extroverted) but still accounts for the wishy-washy-ness usually ascribed to the decision making functions of the types in parenthesis.

 

[Jack Flak]

But MBTI function order has nothing to do with .......

You've been indoctrinated, and I'm sorry. It's extremely difficult for a Thinking Primary to change well-established notions in their minds. I recommend that you ponder my system at a distance, occasionally, for a few weeks, and see what you think then.