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Jack Flak's Function System Adventure

Salomé

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Yes, but I do wonder if he meant for the system to be as neat and tidy as Myers-Briggs has made it. He never specified the E/I direction of the auxiliary function. And the things he says often surprises me when he's speaking outside of his book, Psychological Types. He would say that Freud is actually an Introvert, even though he said he was an Extravert in PT, and that Freud is actually a Feeling type, even though his system is Thinking, etc. I find it hard to know what Jung really thinks regarding people's types as people.

He didn't really believing in typing people, in typologies per se (despite inventing one - typical INTP :rolli:)

He was more interested in clinical applications.
 

redacted

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I totally disagree that INTPs are more N than T.

(And I disagree with 7 other of your type orders, of course...)

One thing I do agree with, though, is scrapping the separate functions for introversion/extroversion.
 

Haphazard

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That's because you don't understand the theory. The J/P dichotomy is about how you interract with the environment. For an Introvert, this is of secondary importance, therefore, the dominant function for an IJ is actually a perceiving function. That's why introverted Js can sometimes look like Ps and vice versa.

You didn't read my subsequent posts.

Even though an IJ is a dominant 'perceiving' type, they don't use 'perceiving' like a P type.

The 'perceiving' and 'judging' functions don't really go along with the P/J dichotomy. Just the extroverted ones do.
 

cloakofsnow

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He didn't really believing in typing people, in typologies per se (despite inventing one - typical INTP :rolli:)

He was more interested in clinical applications.

Yes, it appears so. :yes: There are type-related things which he admits to not being certain about (e.g. whether functions are innate), but he doesn't seem to think it's important either.
 

Giggly

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ISFJ:

Introverted.
Primary function: Feeling
Support function: Sensing

I have always thought I was this, rather than the other way around so this seems right to me. Many of the others you listed seemed more accurate to me too (based on observation).
 

mlittrell

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what is the application (besides being another model)? do not take it personally but most of this is implied.
 

Jack Flak

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what is the application (besides being another model)? do not take it personally but most of this is implied.
Application, eh? What do you think I am, an ENTJ?

Really though, I wanted to define my notions more clearly than before. That was my motivation. If there's anything this would be good for it's cleaning up all the useless banter on complex function order. Keep It Simple, Stupid, as they say.
 

locke

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So, looking at your theory, you could conclude that as introverts develop their functions they become more comfortable using them in an extroverted manner. Thus, for example, INFJs develop their Feeling function first and are more likely to use it extrovertedly.

Since extroverts are more focused on the external world, this is where they develop their functions and become more comfortable using them introvertedly as they mature.
 

Jack Flak

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So, looking at your theory, you could conclude that as introverts develop their functions they become more comfortable using them in an extroverted manner. Thus, INFJs develop their Feeling function first and are more likely to use it extrovertedly.

Since extroverts are more focused on the external world, this is where they develop their functions and become more comfortable using them introvertedly as they mature.
I hadn't considered that. It sounds like the kind of specific extrapolation I was trying to get away from, and I would more likely phrase it as:

People get better at what they do often.
 

Salomé

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OK, I got my Lenore Thomson back from my sister who stole it (she steals all my books). :steam:

What do you think of this, Jack?

"One of the more interesting results of research into psychological types is the finding that each function operates in different area of the brain. Each type not only activates a distinct set of neurological sites but also favors one side of the brain over the other.

Most of this research has been done with positron-emission tomography, or PET scanning, which allows technicians to see the brain at work. When the brain's nerve cells are active, the body produces enough glucose to support them. Researchers can tell from this increase in glucose which parts of the brains are working hardest when different functions are being used.

Even the simplest of human skills, of course, requires complex neural connections in many areas of the brain. To speak of a function's locus of activity is an extreme generalization. Roughly speaking, however, PET technology indicates that our functional capacities are distributed as follows:

Front of Left Brain
Te
Fe

Back of Left Brain
Si
Ni

Front of Right Brain
Ne
Se

Back of Right Brain
Fi
Ti


The Introverted Functions and Brain Hemisphere

One of the most useful findings of current type research is the surprising fact that Introverted and Extraverted versions of the same functions activate on opposite sides of the brain.
Extraverted Thinking and Extraverted Feeling activate more areas in the left brain, but Introverted Thinking and Introverted Feeling activate more areas in the right brain.
Extraverted Sensation and Extraverted Intuition activate more areas in the right brain, but Introverted Sensation and Introverted Intuition activate more areas in the left brain.

This information is useful for several reasons. for one thing. it makes clear that each function can operate in a right or left brain manner. For another, it suggests that our dominant and secondary functions are compatible because their primary activity takes place in the same brain hemisphere. Indeed, we may resist our less-developed functions, in par, because they require us to process information in an unaccustomed left or right-brain way."

Like a right-handed person trying to write with his left-hand.
This makes shed-loads of sense to me.

It also helps to explain why we tend to see the dominance patterns that we do, and not just random patterns which we would expect if there were no such locus (e.g how many people are Fe/Ne or Fi/Ni dom? - too much 'context-switching'. How many people are Te/Fe? - that part of your brain gets specialized to one thing or the other and the other ends up weaker to the extent that you differentiate).
 

pippi

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That's interesting bluemonday. I have a theory that a subset of people who are balanced on the left brain/right brain can use both the introverted and extroverted parts of their dominant functions at will. Their preference isn't as hard wired as someone who is right brain or left brain dominant.
 

FDG

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Jack, but that's socionics :p
 
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To speak of a function's locus of activity is an extreme generalization. Roughly speaking, however, PET technology indicates that our functional capacities are distributed as follows:

:doh:


Btw, bluemonday, it's difficult to tell where a quote begins and ends if you don't close the quotation marks. Maybe you should just use the tags.
 

Salomé

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Btw, bluemonday, it's difficult to tell where a quote begins and ends if you don't close the quotation marks. Maybe you should just use the tags.

What are you on about? I did use quotation marks - look again.

I don't understand the :doh:
PET clearly shows where brain activity is concentrated.
 

mlittrell

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Application, eh? What do you think I am, an ENTJ?

Really though, I wanted to define my notions more clearly than before. That was my motivation. If there's anything this would be good for it's cleaning up all the useless banter on complex function order. Keep It Simple, Stupid, as they say.
ahh ok sounds good to me. a noble cause. though personally i find that functions theory/notation is very easy to understand once you understand what each function does. so could you type out a little profile for your simplified version of the functions, for each of your individual "psuedo-functions"?
 

Jack Flak

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ahh ok sounds good to me. a noble cause. though personally i find that functions theory/notation is very easy to understand once you understand what each function does. so could you type out a little profile for your simplified version of the functions, for each of your individual "psuedo-functions"?
I was thinking about adding clearer definitions of S,N,T,&F. Not my strength, long descriptions...I'll Keep it Simple and edit the OP.

Jack, but that's socionics :p

It's no more Socionics than Keirsey is MBTI.

OK, I got my Lenore Thomson back from my sister who stole it (she steals all my books).

What do you think of this, Jack?....
I'm skeptical of the intent and procedure, to be honest. I'm not saying "Didn't happen," but I don't trust it yet. How on Earth would they measure someone's Introverted Intuition?

That's interesting bluemonday. I have a theory that a subset of people who are balanced on the left brain/right brain can use both the introverted and extroverted parts of their dominant functions at will. Their preference isn't as hard wired as someone who is right brain or left brain dominant.

If what bluemonday & Lenore Thompson said is true, I must fall into this category being as I see no difference between E and I in functions themselves.
 

mlittrell

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my point with definitions is that if you can bring something new to the table in your definitions then you could very well have something significant :) if not then functions are a perfectly fluid and useful system.
 

Jack Flak

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my point with definitions is that if you can bring something new to the table in your definitions then you could very well have something significant :) if not then functions are a perfectly fluid and useful system.
And myyyy point is that by simplifying something and removing potential errors, I am making it more useful.

I've added a very simple glossary to the OP.
 

Salomé

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I'm skeptical of the intent and procedure, to be honest. I'm not saying "Didn't happen," but I don't trust it yet. How on Earth would they measure someone's Introverted Intuition?
Same way the cognitive functions tests measure it, I suppose.
I'll try to find out more about the underlying basic research - I think it was related to sports performance.

If what bluemonday & Lenore Thompson said is true, I must fall into this category being as I see no difference between E and I in functions themselves.

Funny you should say that:

Hell yeah, 104%, big brains.

Right Brain |||||||||||||| 60%
Left Brain |||||||||||| 44%

You are quite well-developed, for an INTP.
 
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