[MBTI General] Ne vs. Ni discusson

[Red Memories]

Heyo time for a new edition, since I was shockingly surprised how well the Fe vs. Fi discussion went. I know another user had said they struggle to understand Ne and I decided to do another of the vs. columns on the intuitive function.

WHAT IS THE INTUITIVE FUNCTION?
That's a hard bargain. It can most definitely be agreed upon it is future oriented. By that, it is meant these dots are connecting to some future point. Intuitives are often described as "more creative" but I do not think creativity necessarily means intuitive. ESxPs are still creative yet they use Se moreso, but the Ni helps them see things with it. As any type can feel, any type can be creative. I think creative in itself is a broad term, as there are so many forms OF creativity. If you use N, you are in a land of possibilities or disconnected dots, constantly seeking to connect them to some central point or other point in general. Even extraverted intuition can look somewhat introverted, as Ns are often trapped in their own heads, trying to release some formal functioning connect of dots.

AXIS USE
Ne dominants use inferior Si to filter things. Ni dominants use Se to filter. Hence, all of these future oriented, stuck in your head types are filtered by something concrete and real in the form of sensation. Same as the concrete and real Si/Se types have the lens of N to filter through them, helping them see more than just the mere object.

HERE IS MY DISCLAIMER: I, personally, on my typology studies journey, find the hardest function to describe to be Ni. I have had many seasoned typology readers on this forum try and explain it to me. I have read many resources, and I still struggle to connect with what it is. Although I have even had people say they see Ni in me, I struggle to understand the function in use. If you find this description to be wrong or far out of range of what it is, do not fear to correct me. This is the function I feel least sure of.

WHAT IS NE?
I remember seeing a meme, and it said that someone asked if this specific car would be a good buy. The friend gave a run down of the history of imperial Japan, since it was a Japanese model, and the asker was confused what that had to do with him buying a car. It is a joke but I do think it actually captures Ne at its finest. Ne sees a chalkboard of words and finds sometimes the most random connections to the root point. While Ni tends to find all the dots and send them to a central point, Ne finds a central point and starts connecting it to all the dots. Because of this, Ne can be sporadic, and is likely why conversing with them is sometimes considered a little "ADHD" by some people. (I have had people ask me if I had ADHD, if you're wondering where I got that...and other Ne users told me they've heard it before. XD) Ne comes off energetic but falls short of the Fe energy, although many find the NFPs and NTPs to be fun and warming types. This warmth comes a bit from the filter with Si. Si as the inferior lens makes Ne users a little more nostalgic in a way. They connect what they are seeing with memories, and in turn connect those memories with the future orientation. Ne can be seen to some as confusing, because you may bring up one thing and Ne ends up on a completely different point. I know myself when I talk to people, we start at ice cream and somehow end up somewhere far away from that conversation. Along the way you almost forget where you started. It is like a constant info cracking. "I remember when' "Oh I read this and" suddenly all these dots that seem disconnected, are connecting.
Contrary to popular belief, Ne is not as extraverted as other types. Of course they are warm and kind. Nevertheless, the intuitive function dominantly lives in the head. Ne grabs from the environment and translates it in the head, and it is constantly being filtered by Fi or Ti. These introverted functions require introspection, which may leave the ENFP running for cover for a while to process everything. In a sense, Ne is sporadic even in interaction. For that burst of energy it receives from all the outer input, it will need time to reflect on how it aligns with their logic or their values. However, in some ways Ne can also be a good "devil's advocate". Because how they connect one thing to the next, they can also see how things ripple an effect, and ask the harder questions. Ne with Fi may be even more selective with interactions, based on the strength of their value filter, and that they tend to dislike shallow discussions at times. They want the heart of something. However, the lower Ne is on the axis, the more Ne becomes a difficult friend. STJ may see Ne as problematic moreso than useful. It can help them find ways to improvise and reuse something, but it can also dream up every worst case scenario known to mankind.

WHAT IS NI?
I kind of liked an old friend's description as a starter here, because it almost made me wonder if I used Ni. Ni is a "gut feeling." Like something inside you knows this isn't a good idea. Truest of intuitive, you cannot really see how the pieces come together without some EUREKA explanation from them. But Ni is very different from sporadic Ne, always bouncing and sharing different ideas. I like to see it as those Ne dots coming back to the center. While Ne spreads, Ni centers. They are investigative in a way. They enter a room or place and see all these things, and then begin seeing how they are interconnected. Finally after continual assessment, they find the focal point and focus on that. It is an "epiphany" sort of moment for them. They may not even share any thoughts on the thing until they REACH that focal point. How it is presented, is how the aux works with it. It may be presented in an Fe fashion, or a Te organized fashion. Both of these functions are the auxiliary toward the dom types. Ni comes off more future oriented than Ne does at times, as Ne seems almost Se-like, making dots in the moment. Ni is more orderly, and is thinking far ahead. Sometimes Ni doesn't fully know why their mind is telling them something isn't good, but they may lean to trust their gut. They may quickly form first impressions that decides whether or not they interact with something.

So it is time to sound off. How do you experience Ne? Ni? Do you feel these descriptions are accurate?

 

[skimpit]

I definitely use Ne, but I've learned to compensate for it being an inferior or just less-used function by simulating Ni.

When I was younger, I'd think in general about how the great planners and leaders (sometimes dictators) would use their thinking skills to relay visions upon their people or audience. I didn't know this was Ni then. But what I did was this -- I'd have a vision in my mind that would be ever-expanding of how I wanted a certain goal or scene to play out, and since it drove me nuts that I could go over this scene many times without ever making a decision, I'd pick one scenario and stick to it by rehearsing what I wanted to say and how I want to look or even feel (maybe perhaps what it would feel like if I did a certain thing, and if the person I was speaking to responded a certain way according to my Ne/Si extrapolations). I did this because my emotions can sometimes (often) catch me by surprise and ruin an interaction. So I was trying to control myself in the way a successful leader would. I knew I wanted something specific, but I couldn't quell my fears long enough to go after that thing.

So I was social-engineering myself, using all the outcomes to decide on the best course of action.

It's hard for me to do this, and of course it isn't real Ni, but it's fun to work that Ne and make it do new things, especially in relation to other functions.

 

[Pionart]

A very major aspect of Ni is that it's about the way something is understood or interpreted. It's highly theoretical and speculative (interpretation and speculation apply to Ne, too), and is about the way something is being looked at, in a figurative sense, it is a perspective. So one might take on the "typological perspective" for instance, where things are seen as the manifestation of the underlying concepts of N/S/F/T - much in the same way that Si has an idea of how something usually looks, and feels dissonance when things don't match up. The perspective nature of Ni is its subjectivity.

Ne by contrast is not about a perspective, but about objects. For instance, Ne may be used in mathematics, where the symbol "x" represents an abstraction or generalisation of a number - it's not a specific number (at least at first) but could represent any of them. Then there will be other abstractions like a matrix, an open set, the number line etc. and these abstract objects all connect to each other in particular ways. Ni on the other hand would approach mathematics by looking at things through a "mathematical lens" where they have a general understanding of how to approach a maths problem.

So, problem solving: an Ni approach which applies to myself, is that I often "figure out" a problem simply by staring at it until the answer appears. The premise is that the answer can be seen if you just look at things in the way right way, so it's about gradually shifting your focus until something "clicks". Ne on the other hand will brainstorm: a more specific approach will come to mind, and Ne will project that line outwards to see where it will lead: is it likely to go somewhere, or will it hit a brick wall? And Ne will keep coming up with approach after approach until the possibilities are exhausted.

Phenomenologically...

Ni is like... everything in the environment is just "as it is" (because Ni pairs with Se) but the way that Ni is understanding everything could vary wildly. Ni might take on the perspective of normalcy, or it might have the perspective of being on a mission, where everything will relate to the individual's mission, or perhaps to a life philosophy that is forming. So the Ni user is seeing what's there - but the interpretation is something that cannot be seen by an outside observer, it is an internal sense (for lack of a better word). The things that happen may take on symbolic meaning, perhaps suggesting something that may happen, or which the Ni user way attempt to do, in the future.

For Ne, the environment isn't just "as it is", but rather is an evolving terrain of possibilities. So, if watching a show, whereas the Ni/Se user will see just what's on the screen while being internally transformed, the Ne/Si user will be tracking the development of the plot, able to foresee where things are going to go next. The Ne user might say the line of the character before the character has even said it, even though they've never watched the show, because they have made connections based on the current situation and past associations (Si) and are able to see where things are headed. Ne might see objects in the environment not for their ordinary purposes, but as a playground for trying new things.

(I'll leave it there for now, there is plenty more to say)

 

[Non_xsense]

Imagination vs creativity

 

[Pionart]

Imagination vs creativity

Both intuitive functions can be imaginative and creative.

You need to provide specific definitions of what you mean for that distinction to work.

 

[skimpit]

Both intuitive functions can be imaginative and creative.

You need to provide a specific definition of what you mean for that distinction to work.

The person can reply with their own interpretation, but what I get from that is:

Ni - imagination because it comes from within you and is pure speculation and world-building, i.e. the "vision"
Ne - creativity because it's building off the existing "framework" of Si

Doesn't mean it's right, but that's what I get from it.

 

[Pionart]

My favourite metaphor for Ni is a kaleidoscope.

Life as an Ni dominant is like... everything will be seen in terms of a kind of over-arching pattern. But at some point in time, the pattern will just suddenly shift. All the constituent parts are the same but now they've been jumbled up and formed into a new pattern. Everything that happens will be interpreted through that pattern, until all the details are explored and then BAM! It shifts again, and the pattern is totally different.

This can happen during sleep, or it can even happen while awake. It happens in a larger scale across years, but in a smaller scale happens in real time. Life for Ni is a pattern which undergoes revolutionary shifts once things reach critical mass.

 

[Non_xsense]

Bro you already did it , why should i ?

 

[Pionart]

Bro you already did it , why should i ?

You included the words, did you not? I'm just saying that without explaining what you mean (I'm talking a couple one liners, not several paragraphs like I did) the terms don't hold much weight.

 

[Pionart]

My favourite metaphor for Ni is a kaleidoscope.

Life as an Ni dominant is like... everything will be seen in terms of a kind of over-arching pattern. But at some point in time, the pattern will just suddenly shift. All the constituent parts are the same but now they've been jumbled up and formed into a new pattern. Everything that happens will be interpreted through that pattern, until all the details are explored and then BAM! It shifts again, and the pattern is totally different.

This can happen during sleep, or it can even happen while awake. It happens in a larger scale across years, but in a smaller scale happens in real time. Life for Ni is a pattern which undergoes revolutionary shifts once things reach critical mass.

I just feel like commenting this...

*scientific voice* Life for Ni is a pattern which undergoes revolutionary shifts...

...once things reach...

*deep, foreboding voice* CRITICAL. MASS.

*bass drops*

 

[Red Memories]

Good to see the discussion going. Hoping to maybe hear from some more Ni users...? :3

Some suggest I am Ni because I see a goal and focus in on it so much. It is like my dots reflect back to a center point. However, a lot of people also see the sporadic of Ne existing in my attention. I had mostly decided on Ne, as I feel like the more I see something the more I connect it to this or this. Your cat reminds me of a cat over here and that cat reminds me of... XD

 

[Jaguar]

Introverted iNtuition (Ni)

* Foreseeing
* Conceptualizing
* Understanding complex patterns
* Synthesizing and symbolizing
* Future

"This is how it will be."
"Aha, that's it!"

When Ni is a preferred process:

* You usually feel a certainty about what is going to happen, often without much detail and without being able to trace the actual data that would support the prediction.
* You focus on "what will be."
* You are energized by transformational visions of how someone can grow or of a completely original approach to get there.
* You are drawn to make those visions manifest.
* Frequently you experience flashes of insight that present themselves as broad themes and patterns or systems of thought without being triggered by external events.
* Inner images come as a knowing that taps into universal symbols and with a certainty that they are true.
* Much reading "between the lines" occurs.

Introverted Intuiting is about Seeking Insights and Meanings

It focuses on:

* Identifying underlying meaning
* Identifying the inter-relatedness of data
* Synthesizing the information to reveal the "golden nuggets"

Its approach is to:

* Just state how or what action to take
* Rely on insight to develop vision for the future
* Envision without the need for tangible support

Introverted Intuiting's verbal communications are delivered in absolutes with a quest for meaning, i.e.:

* "Why?"
* Identifying the hidden meaning
* States what is going on behind the scenes

Introverted Intuiting's nonverbal cues are: reflective, serious, and confident; may appear complex, disengaged; could appear hesitant to respond.

To build rapport with introverted Intuiting, we can try:

* Providing a theoretical framework
* Using symbolic, conceptual language
* Relating concrete experience to theories
* Asking them to show you how they made their connections
* Asking for the long-term vision

Here are the sorts of complaints we make about introverted Intuiting when we feel uncomfortable. We say the person is...

* Serious and arrogant
* Complex and vague
* Theoretical or lacking specifics
* Inflexible and adversarial
* Out of touch with reality




Extraverted iNtuiting (Ne)

* Inferring
* Hypothesizing
* Seeing possibilities
* Wondering and brainstorming
* Emergent

"This is what might be."
"It could be this or this or this or . . ."

When Ne is a preferred process:

* Much reading "between the lines" occurs.
* Potential possibilities and meanings are "revealed" and must be explored.
* Energized by discovering other perspectives in an ever-shifting succession of ideas or insights triggered by the particular situation, much like brainstorming.
* You frequently experience a flight of ideas that brings relevant pieces of information from one context into another.
* "What is" is not seen for what it is but for its relationship to other things.
* Everything is perceived in a context of a web of relationships. Nothing stands alone or is disconnected.

Extraverted Intuiting is about Seeking Patterns and Possibilities

It focuses on:

* Possibilities for the future
* Identifying connections and patterns within the data
* Connecting the current situation with other possible situations -- what could be

Its approach is to:

* Propose options
* Respond enthusiastically to the ideas of others
* Get excited about doing something differently

Extraverted Intuiting's verbal communications are delivered through possibilities, i.e.:

* "We could do this, or maybe that"
* Connects the dots without drawing the lines
* Rapid delivery following stream-of-consciousness thought

Extraverted Intuiting's nonverbal cues are: energetic, excited, enthusiastic; bounces easily from one topic to another; enjoys the rush of something new.

To build rapport with extraverted Intuiting, we can try:

* Presenting the big picture first
* Remaining open to new ideas
* Providing opportunities to brainstorm alternatives
* Allowing room to explore options without judgment
* Avoiding the need for accurate details

Here are the sorts of complaints we make about extraverted Intuiting when we feel uncomfortable. We say it's:

* Lacking in follow-through
* Random, flighty, and chaotic
* Too comfortable with inaccurate specifics and detail
* Disrespectful of traditional approaches
* Overly optimistic and enthusiastic

 

[1487610420]

* Much reading "between the lines" occurs.

can apply to either, same is true to prob 90% of the rest

 

[Jaguar]

Fixed. Now go have a martini.

 

[Norexan]

Introverted Intuiting's verbal communications are delivered in absolutes with a quest for meaning, i.e.:

* "Why?"

Absolutely wrong this is Enenagram 7. Ne.

 

[Jaguar]

Introverted intuition, like all introverted functions, is oriented toward depth. It is much more focused than its extraverted counterpart. While Ne will ask "why" about one thing, and then ask "why" about something else, Ni will focus on one thing at a time and will keep asking "why" about the same thing over and over again. This is what is meant when Ni is said to be able to view things from multiple perspectives. It sees multiple possible explanations for the same thing. Then it can choose one explanation or an amalgam of explanations.

This also results in the NJ having the greatest depth in understanding whatever it focuses on. It can even see patterns and trends from the present and past, and extrapolate them into the future. Unfortunately introverted functions are not oriented toward communication, and the thought process for Ni is unconscious, so the person is only aware of the result but not how they got there. This means that NJ's seem to have a way of just "knowing things", but they will be unable to adequately explain how they know.

You either get it or you don't.

 

[Norexan]

OK. But this is not "Why?" but HOW.

 

[Jaguar]

The fact that English isn't your first language is showing.

 

[Norexan]

Why? - shallow curiosity (Ne)
How? - deep curiosity (Ni)


WHY DO THEY DO IT? - curiosity on surface you are just curious about something but not necessary you want to know its depths, it only depends how topic (stimulation from external data) stimulate your mind.
HOW DO THEY DO IT? - deep curiosity you want to know how parts is connecting to another, you are here to know how something is working because you already found a topic (simulations from Internal data)

 

[Jaguar]

What country do you live in?