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  1. #11
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Symphony View Post
    Buddhism's tends to see it as a way to understand the way your mind works, since buddhism tends to also feel that you are living through your unconscious fears and etc.. If you understand and meditate and know of your negative traits to work on, and understand the self, then you can achieve "liberation". Enneagram tends to align fairly well with some concepts of buddhism so. it works.
    In the process of individuation in Jungian psychology, it starts with the ego and persona - your consciousness/identity and the image you present to the world - and then moves onto the shadow*, which can be thought of as an alter-ego, which contains the weaker sides of your psyche which you don't identify with but come out in an inferior form. So, what you're describing sounds like the "shadow work" of bringing to conscious awareness your weaker side and how it can be influencing you, potentially turning it from the unhealthy expression of negative emotion, into a balancing and critiquing of the more natural elements of the personality.

    The process doesn't stop there though, and goes onto the anima/animus, which represents your idealised image of the opposite sex, but also those things which inspire you in general, "finding your passion". From there it goes to the wise old man/woman, which represents the mastery of your cognitive faculties, and then the self, which transcends the opposing nature of the contending forces in the psyche, allowing you to shine as your true self.

    It goes even further than that too, into your internalised image of the greater whole which you are a part of - moving gradually outward into other humans, animals, as well as the life force which exists in more subtle forms.

    Liberation, then, would be about self-actualising and self-transcending, from the Jungian/my perspective.

    --

    * Note that the shadow is not necessarily dark or destructive; rather, there are light and dark manifestations of each stage, with the light form moving one higher, towards the self and beyond, which is the spiritual nature, and the dark form sending one backwards to ego and body, the carnal nature.
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellmold View Post
    I think certain kinds of abstraction are useful, but abstraction is a complicated, often indeterminate state.

    I mean, regardless of your thoughts on type, concepts like a flag, a nation, tradition, maps, continents, countries...etc..those are all abstractions that lead from abstract thinking. I'd actually go so far as to say that I would argue against relying on abstraction, at least to a certain degree, because the best intuitions are based in very grounded observations, not high-minded ideals and the senses have empiricism built into them.

    Although we know our senses can be fooled, hence the basal assumptions of scientific enquiry. And there is always going to be doubt about reality, we cannot escape that; it's our nature.

    But we have that well known tendency to place ourselves at the heart of what we do, whether it be the universe, our planet, our country..perhaps even our neighbourhood. But while I would agree with a pop-psych assessment of doing this for self-protection from ennui and nihilism, I don't think it is done in an entirely conscious, cynical manner. Sure some individuals do, but I think most of us are just the product of our unconscious impulses and influences.

    Not to a helpless existence, though. And we can feed the unconscious with conscious activity, as experience and information endlessly cycle from one state to another.

    It's just a hard impulse to curtail.
    It's actually not so bad given the correct intellectual tools. Humanities have its methods as well, that's what makes it science of sorts, though I'm sure lots of people would disagree since they only believe that empiricism is the only tool. For the concept of the nation we have Benedict Anderson's Imagined Communities. MBTI is such a tool, though the use of personality typologies may be brought up to question within the discipline. At the end of the day the layman understands a different thing from hobbyists, and hobbyists a different thing from professionals, and professionals a different thing from academics.
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  3. #13
    Time-OverLord Norexan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Welcome to my side of reality.

    Can political systems remake Enneagram types


    I mean this "problem" can also spills to MBTI. Can you rally be an ENTJ in the environment where you can't own a business ? (the answer is murky). Or can you be nothing other than a e6 when bombs are falling on the city for years ? Especially since you will never be the person you were ..... etc.


    The whole typology is very western based since all of it's models start from the point that you live in a democracy and free market capitalism. As a matter of fact I have discovered the MBTI by accident on the internet since here it was completely unknown "tool" until a few years ago. However I also saw my local self-declared Marxists to define it is a Capitalistic tool for enhancing exploitation and division of workers.
    Try this from another side because thing with ENTJs are so sensitive in community so the people would know what are you talking about: "Can you really be INFP and be a CEO?"

    For example for what Jung said about types I definitely identify myself as a extroverted thinker - cold, reserved, calculated ,ambivert, scientific and order mind with no sense for social dynamics or other people emotions -> speaker of truth which is 8 because for 8 truth is holy not success (3) or righteousness (1) or personal knowledge (5) but truth as whole. This is why 8 are so sensitive when comes to innocents. Only two e-type I can indeity myself as 8 and 1 so I am defiantly ENTJ (truth-seeker of 8 and fantasy of Ni-Se)
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    "There is no intellectualism in faith. Both atheist and theist choose their belief system based on ego and self-preservation." by 2017
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    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  4. #14
    Senior Member awbro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Symphony View Post
    While the origins of MBTI come from Katherine and Isabel Briggs, from Pennsylvania, the theory itself originated from the swiss Carl Jung. Since there, others have built upon it (including mentions as above by Legion, Russians coming with socionics) and Enneagram which was built more in South American roots. It is also mentioned how Buddhists school tend to take bits of it and focus on negative traits for growth. and of course a great deal of personality psychology all roots back to Sigmund Freud. I would say typology itself is multicultural. It is something every country is trying to fathom in spite of borders.
    It is borderless, but most of what you mentioned doesn't transcend the larger Western culture. Germanic culture hearkens back to our English roots, and American culture has been shaped largely by Anglo-Saxon tradition. It's all connected, except for Buddhism. And yeah, I suppose Russian culture is a bit different, but it's still grouped in that Western umbrella.

    I suppose, though, if you wanted to be a bit facetious, you could say we all originated from the same ancestor, so does it really matter? But I think it does.

    Every larger cultural group has religions and their own type of horoscopes and such. But I can't help but wonder if some parts of the wisdom shared in them are culturally specific. I know that despite being a bit disparate at times, various religions have important similarities, and distinct cultures come together by sharing their versions of Cinderella or Little Red Riding Hood. But I feel each is tailored to show important lessons embedded in those cultures. Am I wrong?

  5. #15
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norexan View Post
    Try this from another side because thing with ENTJs are so sensitive in community so the people would know what are you talking about: "Can you really be INFP and be a CEO?"

    For example for what Jung said about types I definitely identify myself as a extroverted thinker - cold, reserved, calculated ,ambivert, scientific and order mind with no sense for social dynamics or other people emotions -> speaker of truth which is 8 because for 8 truth is holy not success (3) or righteousness (1) or personal knowledge (5) but truth as whole. This is why 8 are so sensitive when comes to innocents. Only two e-type I can indeity myself as 8 and 1 so I am defiantly ENTJ (truth-seeker of 8 and fantasy of Ni-Se)

    Ok, but you are missing the point of what dictatorship really is. Especially since it directly affects who you are and how you behave. The fact that you like to say the truth can actually be quite dangerous for you in a dictatorship, for obvious reasons. Actually those that stand too much for "truth and justice" will be the first ones in front of a firing squad. While In the case that they can't get to you they will place your family members and friends there instead. Therefore everyone will be having second thought about saying what is really on their mind. Plus if you make the economy 100% run by government you will cripple personal independence factor. What in the end means that with Communist dictatorship you can destroy two main traits of ENTJs, cognition may be there but behavior evidently wouldn't be. What directly clashes with the profiles that say "fearless people".


    On the other hand you can be INFP CEO, if the company isn't too big, complex or serious. However truth to be told in a Communist dictatorship you can be INFP and even a CEO of big company. Because if market is abolished you no longer need so much Te to run "the show". In other words if government owns EVERYTHING then only a government can make you a CEO of it's assets. In other words if you seem enough loyal and competent you can jump right on the top of the company regardless of your type. After all there you will only implement the government policies and you wouldn't have any real competition since everything is owned by the government and there is no stock-market.


    Also I recently messed up a thread of an NF over the term "soul", however what she didn't grasp is that for me this isn't necessary a chat topic. Since here back in a day such belief could get you a serious prison sentence. Plus she would almost surely lose custody of her kid(s) over such words.



    Therefore MBTI as it is now defined is for the most part Western construct, since it doesn't really include these options as something that can be your daily life.

  6. #16
    Time-OverLord Norexan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Ok, but you are missing the point of what dictatorship really is. Especially since it directly affects who you are and how you behave. The fact that you like to say the truth can actually be quite dangerous for you in a dictatorship, for obvious reasons. Actually those that stand too much for "truth and justice" will be the first ones in front of a firing squad. While In the case that they can't get to you they will place your family members and friends there instead. Therefore everyone will be having second thought about saying what is really on their mind. Plus if you make the economy 100% run by government you will cripple personal independence factor. What in the end means that with Communist dictatorship you can destroy two main traits of ENTJs, cognition may be there but behavior evidently wouldn't be. What directly clashes with the profiles that say "fearless people".


    On the other hand you can be INFP CEO, if the company isn't too big, complex or serious. However truth to be told in a Communist dictatorship you can be INFP and even a CEO of big company. Because if market is abolished you no longer need so much Te to run "the show". In other words if government owns EVERYTHING then only a government can make you a CEO of it's assets. In other words if you seem enough loyal and competent you can jump right on the top of the company regardless of your type. After all there you will only implement the government policies and you wouldn't have any real competition since everything is owned by the government and there is no stock-market.


    Also I recently messed up a thread of an NF over the term "soul", however what she didn't grasp is that for me this isn't necessary a chat topic. Since here back in a day such belief could get you a serious prison sentence. Plus she would almost surely lose custody of her kid(s) over such words.



    Therefore MBTI as it is now defined is for the most part Western construct, since it doesn't really include these options as something that can be your daily life.
    Communism is formed by xNTJ lol. Every communist leader were ENTJ or INTJ. There is no true capitalist xNTJ, it is system who goes directly against their personalty, because capitalism segregates people into classes which destroy personality of each person. You know there are people who cannot pay for health or school so instead state help its citizens to grow, to develop themselves, to think about people what they only teach is how to put chains on you hands and enslaved you by their needs of your money and YOUR capacity. They are robbers of intellectual's property and years of hard-working and researching which leads to monstrous creations in the world.

    Truth can be always dangerous. Even in democratic states. God damn it truth is danger to speak in UN. Difference between democracy and totalitarianism is the point that totalitarian system shows high openness to its citizen what is forbidden and what not which cause to having cult of their leaders. People cry for leaders of such states. You know why? Because every honest human loves people who speak truth unless you are thief.

    And no INFP can be CEO in capitalism because researcher who done this come not from Europe but from US where there is existed hardcore capitalism so your claim is wrong.
    True Neutral 1 8 3 7 5 Teexcellent>Niexcellent>Figood>Tigood>>>>Siaverage>Fe unused
    "There is no intellectualism in faith. Both atheist and theist choose their belief system based on ego and self-preservation." by 2017
    ===Logical Crusader===

    Dail [or Daer] ú-[o] chyn [or fyn/thyn] [?] Ú-danno i failad a thi; an úben tannatha le failad.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Plus if you make the economy 100% run by government you will cripple personal independence factor.
    Which is exactly why I'm against it.

    What in the end means that with Communist dictatorship you can destroy two main traits of ENTJs
    I'd leave the country. Period.

  8. #18
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post

    I'd leave the country. Period.

    Yeah, but as you probably know that can be a problem as well. Back in a day people were finding many ways to illegally run away from my country, while even abroad Communist spies and agents were hunting them down. I mean that kind of ruthlessness simply can't be good for anybody. The system was so if full of elements/scenarios/people for which I am even unsure how to type and interpret with MBTI. Since once you remove freedom of though that opens the question are you really you. While everybody can't be on the decision making top, what in a lot of ways just brakes MBTI. I have met average west Europeans and even Americans in real life and you can just sense that they haven't seen a war from first hand or "the party".



    However I said what I had on this topic and I don't want to choke the thread completely with this. Since MBTI in it's logic and profiles is fundamentally linked to first world. After all it is a trademark from what I understand.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    The system was so if full of elements/scenarios/people for which I am even unsure how to type and interpret with MBTI. Since once you remove freedom of though that opens the question are you really you. While everybody can't be on the decision making top, what in a lot of ways just brakes MBTI. I have met average west Europeans and even Americans in real life and you can just sense that they haven't seen a war from first hand or "the party".
    I was thinking about this last week when a woman from China was on the Stephen Colbert Show. She said something to the effect of "You people in the U.S. are different from us. You're thinking of the individual and we think of the group or the collective." Well, if that's her culture, I can already guess what she will not type as - anything involving individuality. So would the MBTI work for her? She'd get a result, but one that reflects her culture.
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  10. #20
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I was thinking about this last week when a woman from China was on the Stephen Colbert Show. She said something to the effect of "You people in the U.S. are different from us. You're thinking of the individual and we think of the group or the collective." Well, if that's her culture, I can already guess what she will not type as - anything involving individuality. So would the MBTI work for her? She'd get a result, but one that reflects her culture.
    Depends what you mean by "type as".

    If you mean: how would she score in an MBTI questionnaire? Then yeah, that will likely be affected,
    But if you mean: what is her actual type, then that is unaffected by culture and could be any of the 16.
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