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    Default F = personal relationships vs T = social interactions

    Note: This is actually a thread about the difference between Fe vs Fi, and initially I posted it in another thread about that subject in this forum. But then I looked at the content, and decided maybe it should be in a separate thread. So here it is.

    Let me start by clarifying the difference between F vs T. After that's done, then I'll get into the difference between Fe vs Fi.

    F vs T

    Here's an idea I've been toying with: To me, F seems to be about personal relationships (primary personal attachment bonds: partners, parent-children bonds, friendship bonds, etc.), whereas T seems to be about social interactions. Thus, for example:
    --When you're talking about how you relate to a partner or a friend, you're talking about using F.
    --But when you talk about "being able to sense the emotional temperature of a room full of people upon entering," that's probably going to fall under use of T.

    Examples of F being about personal relationships:

    Examples of *Fe* being about personal relationships
    In the past here at TypoC, the INFJs (Fe-Aux) used to post long rulebooks about how relationships should work. I won't get into what I thought of them myself, as an Fi-Dom. But I noticed that they were always about relationships with a single other person, often a close friend or a partner; they didn't seem to really relate to interactions with a collective or a social group.

    Similarly, an ENFJ (Fe-Dom) friend I had in the past was animated as hell when dealing with individual friends, but tended to fade into the group a bit when with groups. His main preoccupation was one-on-one relationships, and not necessarily being a group leader or guide. In fact, the group leadership role would usually fall to the Te-Doms (Remember, T is more about social relations).

    In fact, ENFJ are users of Inferior Ti, and that may make them weak in gauging social dynamics in a larger group of peers, since their own T function is both inferior and introverted.

    Examples of *Fi* being about personal relationships

    As introverts, obviously INFPs (Fi-Dom) are going to be better with one-on-one relationships than with groups. But it can go to extremes with INFPs. For example, INFPs are well-known for going on crusades on behalf of underdogs. And sometimes they haven't even met the underdog in question. But all it takes is for the INFP to identify intellectually with an underdog to the point of projecting a kind of "relationship bond" with that person or subgroup, and suddenly the INFP is fighting for that person as though fighting for their own child. Fi's really pour a lot of time and effort into personal relationships, often in a very intellectual sort of fashion.

    At the same time, Fi-Doms are usually poor at reading group dynamics. But in some cases they *can* be good at group dynamics (as in the example of gauging the social dynamic in a room full of people). Remember that I said that social relationships require use of T. Fi-Doms are users of Te-Inf, and that can actually make them okay at gauging social dynamics in a larger group of peers, but only if the Fi-Dom in question chooses to develop and engage their inferior function.

    Examples of T being about social groups

    Te-Doms are the gods and goddesses of social leadership. They're often poor at one-on-one relationships, but no one can read a crowd of people better than them and take leadership of that crowd. And they *empathize* with the group, in their own way. An ESTJ "mother hen" type of person (Te-Dom) will defend her "tribe" fiercely. Even an ENTJ male (Te-Dom) can be very "tribal" in his allegiances. So I won't even bother going further into Te's as social animals.

    Meantime, INTPs (Ti-Dom) can actually be highly sensitive to group dynamics by virtue of Ti (a social function), while they are much weaker with their Fe-Inf (a personal-relationship) function. But because they're introverts, they bring their social observations inward and analyze them to death. The result: They use their Ti analysis to produce philosophical and legal and political systems that define how people should get along with each other. In other words, INTP is strong at reading groups, but they bring it inside and intellectualize it to the point that it comes out as intellectual systems for regulating group behavior. Short version: Good at groups, but with a very intellectual output on the subject.

    ************
    Okay, I'm going to stop here. I'll get into Fe vs Fi in a separate post (though you can kind of see where I'm going if you look at Te vs Ti, above). But I thought it important to talk about the difference between F and T first. Why? Because a lot of the discussion in Fi-vs-Fe threads mashes together personal relationships and interactions in society. And according to my ideas, those two situations would represent two different functions, and so should be discussed separately. IOW, if you want to talk about F, then just talk about how you deal with close personal relationships.

    So again, let me stop here and ask: What do people think about the distinction that I'm drawing? F = personal relationships vs T = social and group interactions: Do you think it's total BS, or does the idea seem to have some merit? It's just an idea I'm toying with, so I'm genuinely interested in getting honest feedback on this. Then later, once a consensus on the F vs T idea arises, I'll follow with what I think is the main distinction between Fe and Fi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post

    Examples of T being about social groups

    Te-Doms are the gods and goddesses of social interactions. They're often poor at one-on-one relationships, but no one can read a crowd of people better than them. And they *empathize* with people in a group. An ESTJ "mother hen" type of person will defend her "tribe" fiercely. Even an ENTJ male can be very "tribal" in his allegiances. So I won't even bother going further into Te's as social animals.
    This is really interesting to me. I don't see this at all, really. With the caveat that it's "not true of all", my experience of Te doms is that they're tone deaf steamrollers (and I say "steamrollers" because of the tone-deafness). So we must have pretty different ideas of "reading the room", because I feel like they're generally terrible at it. This is something that actually systematically frustrates me about Te.

    This is also true, ime, of ITJs.

    Meantime, Ti-Doms can actually be highly sensitive to group dynamics, both by virtue of Ti (a social function) and extraverted Fe (a personal-relationship) function. But because they're Ti-Doms, they bring it inward and analyze it to death. The result: They use their Ti analysis to produce philosophical and legal systems that define how people should get along with each other. In other words, Ti-Dom is strong at reading groups, but they intellectualize it to the point that it comes out as intellectual systems for regulating group behavior. Short version: Good at groups, but with a very intellectual output on the subject.
    TPs on the other hand, I do not feel like they are tone-deaf to the people aspect (since they're willing to actually work through that stuff aloud and allow for outside input to weigh in on the conversation - and/or they provide a satisfactory explanation for why input is being dismissed). I rather envy how they seem to be able to spout this stuff off the cuff, almost instantly, because I really struggle with being able to work through this stuff aloud. It can take me forever to articulate when/why I'm taking issue with something. It's like I have to retreat and let the information work its way through the horrible Rube Goldberg contraption that is Ni dominance before I have anything like an opinion - and in the meantime, I have to simply sit with some unwanted emotional charge until it's been sorted. But with TPs, it's like BAM! They see it happen, and they can comment immediately. (In a way that often satisfies my own sensibilities).

    But (and this is probably a side tangent) I do feel - especially with NTPs - like they can instead be tone deaf to an attachment to reality (it's an issue I have with Ne in general). As an example, with my INTP dad (possibly ENTP), I might tell him that I think he should get a new truck; I will lay out all the potential costs I anticipate to fix the one he has, I will lay out examples of available used trucks I've found, and I will explain how I think it ultimately it's gotten to the point where he's just throwing good money at bad by keeping the truck he has. He'll launch into some tangent about how there's no guarantee that a newer truck with fewer miles will last longer. Then I have to calmly explain that "no guarantees" doesn't mean one thing is far more likely to be reliable than the other, and that likelihood itself is what makes something a sensible idea. It's almost like all reality is a talking game though, sometimes, dealing with Ne.

    ***

    The way I've personally come to perceive the difference between F and T inclinations is that a person's attention is either naturally drawn towards the interpersonal world or the objective world (things). Using the (I think) famous "did you see the gorilla?" test to illustrate selective attention (under spoiler), I think that T types are inclined to look for objective information (not people-oriented, e.g. constantly absorbing information they hear about cars and building opinions about, well, cars - that kind of thing ) while F types are primed to look for what's going on for other people and between people. The stronger a person's T inclinations, the blinder they are to the 'gorilla' of people-oriented information.



    That's my 2 cents.

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    I like how you analyzed it. It is very "Te" style for breaking things down. I disagree with your Te assessment, though.

    I have a very good friend who is a ENTJ. He is a pretty good and laid back guy, but his mind is focused on using objective reality to further his goals, principally, making money and building businesses.

    He has created several successful businesses in a short time, analyzing how to quickly grow opportunities.

    He is a poor people person, for all he is very friendly by nature. He treats all his employees like robots and harshly criticizes failure to meet his standards and expectations. He says rude things to his wife, even though he says he isn't intending to be mean. The idea of couching language in polite phrases does not hit him at all.

    He is very bright, but interpersonal relations do not matter, as if he band see them. On a 8- function stack using the shadow, Fe is at the very bottom for him and he is blind to Fe space.

    I don't know about other ENFJs, but here is how I see how being an ENFJ is for me:

    1. I am really in touch with the vibe of a group. I do a good amount of public speaking. I have been told some of my speeches have been the most powerful they have ever heard. I connect with audiences and they connect with me. I work to persuade my audience and usually I can get them to agree with me. When speaking, I prefer to do so without notes as it frees me to go with the audience and be engaged with them.

    2. On a one to one basis, I easily connect with others, who often express that I understand them deeply, even after a few minutes. People I barely know feel very close to me.

    3. I have many acquaintances but few friends. And I find making friends an odd experience.

    4. Ti is tricky. I read once that Ti in ExFJs turns the into a quest for TRUTH, even an obsession with honesty. I agree with that idea. Ti also makes it difficult for me to adequately explain my reasoning to others. NiTi means I understand things but struggle to express my own thoughts on things. For example, I have a half finished book on a big topic, that is groundbreaking and important. When I talk with people allot it, they are amazed. Yet getting the words on paper to match my thoughts is near impossible, so its been half finished for years.

    5. Random strangers approach me regularly and feel connected to me.

    6. For the group, I will put the good of a group before my personal good, if I believe in a group. At the same time, I can be extremely stubborn and make a group of one or two, me, if I feel the need.

    7. I am a horrible salesman. I can't sell anything unless I feel it really is a win win situation. I try to talk people out of bad deals that benefit me.

    8. I am an odd ENFJ e9, so I don't look like typical ENFJs. It is an odd combo.

    9. I hate doing tedious work. I hate due dates. I hate meaningless rules, that exist just to placate ESTJs, much of which seem to govern schools and bureaucracies.

    As to other Fe using groups, ExTPs seem very capable as using Fe as a tool. The best salesmen I know are ESTPs. Some of the best lawyers I know are ENTPs.

    The xSFJs I know seem to connect very well to others, but also seem not to be conscious about it all. They just do it. They are much more practical than NFJs.

    INTPs seem to have Fe, but it is weak. You have correctly elaborated on the Ti dom trap of over thinking. INTPs seem to get sidetracked by Si, and get locked into rigid prior understanding, based upon Ti.

    The main difference I see between ENFJs and INFJs is speed and depth. My INFJ sister thinks like me. She is just far slower at reaching decisions. However, she is a far deeper thinker, while I can be more superficial in my understanding of a topic.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I disagree with your Te assessment, though.

    I have a very good friend who is a ENTJ. He is a pretty good and laid back guy, but his mind is focused on using objective reality to further his goals, principally, making money and building businesses.

    He has created several successful businesses in a short time, analyzing how to quickly grow opportunities.

    He is a poor people person, for all he is very friendly by nature. He treats all his employees like robots and harshly criticizes failure to meet his standards and expectations. He says rude things to his wife, even though he says he isn't intending to be mean. The idea of couching language in polite phrases does not hit him at all.

    He is very bright, but interpersonal relations do not matter, as if he band see them. On a 8- function stack using the shadow, Fe is at the very bottom for him and he is blind to Fe space.
    Actually, your analysis of your ENTJ friend matches what I was trying to describe with Te-Doms (who I said are good at social groups and leadership but bad at personal relationships): He's a natural leader of people resulting in success in business ventures, but poor at interpersonal or one-on-one relationships. Often it happens that great leaders of groups or organizations are crappy at individual relationships. An example of this would be a general in the Army: A general is great at reading and leading the troops and getting the maximum effort out of them, but part of his success derives from the fact that he's a harsh taskmaster and a slavedriver, not a personal friend of the troops.

    In short, Te-Doms = Good at taking leadership of groups, but tend to be weak at personal relationships.

    Meantime, your analysis of yourself as an ENFJ was interesting, and I thank you for your contribution and your candor. But since it's much more broken-down and detailed than the first part of your post, I'll save my comments until I see some additional feedback from others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Actually, your analysis of your ENTJ friend matches what I was trying to describe with Te-Doms (who I said are good at social groups and leadership but bad at personal relationships): He's a natural leader of people resulting in success in business ventures, but poor at interpersonal or one-on-one relationships. Often it happens that great leaders of groups or organizations are crappy at individual relationships. An example of this would be a general in the Army: A general is great at reading and leading the troops and getting the maximum effort out of them, but part of his success derives from the fact that he's a harsh taskmaster and a slavedriver, not a personal friend of the troops.

    In short, Te-Doms = Good at taking leadership of groups, but tend to be weak at personal relationships.

    Meantime, your analysis of yourself as an ENFJ was interesting, and I thank you for your contribution and your candor. But since it's much more broken-down and detailed than the first part of your post, I'll save my comments until I see some additional feedback from others.
    Again, I would not call the "success" of the Te Dom being the ability to treat people like objects, like how Amazon treats its warehouse workers. I don't believe it is good thing at all, and ultimately unsuccessful and counterproductive.

    I would look at McNamara and his conduct of the Vietnam War as a Te dom exercise in complete futility. Let's count bombs dropped and people killed so we have some "metrics" to put into our formula, and who gives a damn if it actually advances the goal of winning the war.

    My ENTJ friend is "blind" to the human element (his words).

    The conflict in Afghanistan seems to be run in a very Te dom mode and does not actually ever achieve victory.
    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
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    ― Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays

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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    My ENTJ friend is "blind" to the human element (his words).
    I would suggest that your Te-Dom friend is blind to the *personal* element, but he is very good at driving a *group* forward. If he was, as you describe him, totally incapable of dealing with people in any form whatsoever, then he would almost certainly drive all of his businesses into the ground and not be a success. To run a multi-person business, you have to have *some* cognizance of group dynamics, what motivates people, etc. Also, the typical business-owner has to deal with clients, customers, suppliers, inspectors, accountants, lawyers, etc. There's a huge "human element" to running a business, and this is precisely what Te-Doms traditionally excel at.

    As I see it, your own dominant Fe simply doesn't want to recognize Te methods as representing a type of "people skills." But that's exactly the point of this thread. Te-Doms are in fact very good at handling people. But they do it in a very different context and style from Fe. In short: Fe=a focus on one-on-one interpersonal skills, whereas Te=a focus on group leadership (including using the slavedriver style of leadership, if necessary).

    As for the rest of your post, concerning bombs and wars, that sounds like politics to me. I'll leave that aside.
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    I've always utilised the thinking part to get an idea of what the other person's thinking due to lack of affective empathy. I spent a lot of time trying to be rid of others' emotional influences on me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    I would suggest that your Te-Dom friend is blind to the *personal* element, but he is very good at driving a *group* forward. If he was, as you describe him, totally incapable of dealing with people in any form whatsoever, then he would almost certainly drive all of his businesses into the ground and not be a success. To run a multi-person business, you have to have *some* cognizance of group dynamics, what motivates people, etc. Also, the typical business-owner has to deal with clients, customers, suppliers, inspectors, accountants, lawyers, etc. There's a huge "human element" to running a business, and this is precisely what Te-Doms traditionally excel at.

    As I see it, your own dominant Fe simply doesn't want to recognize Te methods as representing a type of "people skills." But that's exactly the point of this thread. Te-Doms are in fact very good at handling people. But they do it in a very different context and style from Fe. In short: Fe=a focus on one-on-one interpersonal skills, whereas Te=a focus on group leadership (including using the slavedriver style of leadership, if necessary).

    As for the rest of your post, concerning bombs and wars, that sounds like politics to me. I'll leave that aside.
    I think I can get down with this. Though like everything/ every type in existence, there will be ones who are incompetent/not good at it.

    Though I have only had one ESTJ manager, she was indeed very good at deploying and running a team. I would agree it's less about personal connection (though she did quite obviously connect better with some than others, and had her favorites) and more about just being on top of where everyone is and what everyone is doing and effectively assessing what needs to be done / if things need to be switched up. Efficiency and smooth operations, ultimately - though yes her style would leave something to be desired for some folks. But she had at least superficially learned more Fe-ish behaviors as well so as an ESTJ manager she did put on that hat -- I think because she knew it was an aspect that was necessary.
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    I've heard it referred to as task-based vs people-based. To accomplish a group task, you do need to know how to steer the ship / manage people, but the focus is on the task.

    Meantime, INTPs (Ti-Dom) can actually be highly sensitive to group dynamics by virtue of Ti (a social function), while they are much weaker with their Fe-Inf (a personal-relationship) function. But because they're introverts, they bring their social observations inward and analyze them to death. The result: They use their Ti analysis to produce philosophical and legal and political systems that define how people should get along with each other. In other words, INTP is strong at reading groups, but they bring it inside and intellectualize it to the point that it comes out as intellectual systems for regulating group behavior. Short version: Good at groups, but with a very intellectual output on the subject.
    Yeah, i identify with that. I mean, I've had to develop the latter a lot due to various life scenarios, but I'm more intuitive at analyzing a group as a machine where people are the parts -- i,e., the top-down broad view. It's got an end goal and it views individuals as part of that goal and/or the role they play in reaching it.

    It's also not that one cannot have a very intense and perceptive view of a particular individual and experience empathy for them, but it tends to be generalized into the "human condition" -- i.e., as indicative of the experience that person is undergoing, as something any person can experience, and what that truth of experience is. That's the "sweet spot," and to focus solely on the specific person and just relate to that one person (without generalizing out to summarize some core truth) is what takes energy. Compare that to a perspective where the specific person is actually the end goal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Note: This is actually a thread about the difference between Fe vs Fi, and initially I posted it in another thread about that subject in this forum. But then I looked at the content, and decided maybe it should be in a separate thread. So here it is.

    Let me start by clarifying the difference between F vs T. After that's done, then I'll get into the difference between Fe vs Fi.

    F vs T

    Here's an idea I've been toying with: To me, F seems to be about personal relationships (primary personal attachment bonds: partners, parent-children bonds, friendship bonds, etc.), whereas T seems to be about social interactions. Thus, for example:
    --When you're talking about how you relate to a partner or a friend, you're talking about using F.
    --But when you talk about "being able to sense the emotional temperature of a room full of people upon entering," that's probably going to fall under use of T.

    Examples of F being about personal relationships:

    Examples of *Fe* being about personal relationships
    In the past here at TypoC, the INFJs (Fe-Aux) used to post long rulebooks about how relationships should work. I won't get into what I thought of them myself, as an Fi-Dom. But I noticed that they were always about relationships with a single other person, often a close friend or a partner; they didn't seem to really relate to interactions with a collective or a social group.

    Similarly, an ENFJ (Fe-Dom) friend I had in the past was animated as hell when dealing with individual friends, but tended to fade into the group a bit when with groups. His main preoccupation was one-on-one relationships, and not necessarily being a group leader or guide. In fact, the group leadership role would usually fall to the Te-Doms (Remember, T is more about social relations).

    In fact, ENFJ are users of Inferior Ti, and that may make them weak in gauging social dynamics in a larger group of peers, since their own T function is both inferior and introverted.

    Examples of *Fi* being about personal relationships

    As introverts, obviously INFPs (Fi-Dom) are going to be better with one-on-one relationships than with groups. But it can go to extremes with INFPs. For example, INFPs are well-known for going on crusades on behalf of underdogs. And sometimes they haven't even met the underdog in question. But all it takes is for the INFP to identify intellectually with an underdog to the point of projecting a kind of "relationship bond" with that person or subgroup, and suddenly the INFP is fighting for that person as though fighting for their own child. Fi's really pour a lot of time and effort into personal relationships, often in a very intellectual sort of fashion.

    At the same time, Fi-Doms are usually poor at reading group dynamics. But in some cases they *can* be good at group dynamics (as in the example of gauging the social dynamic in a room full of people). Remember that I said that social relationships require use of T. Fi-Doms are users of Te-Inf, and that can actually make them okay at gauging social dynamics in a larger group of peers, but only if the Fi-Dom in question chooses to develop and engage their inferior function.

    Examples of T being about social groups

    Te-Doms are the gods and goddesses of social leadership. They're often poor at one-on-one relationships, but no one can read a crowd of people better than them and take leadership of that crowd. And they *empathize* with the group, in their own way. An ESTJ "mother hen" type of person (Te-Dom) will defend her "tribe" fiercely. Even an ENTJ male (Te-Dom) can be very "tribal" in his allegiances. So I won't even bother going further into Te's as social animals.

    Meantime, INTPs (Ti-Dom) can actually be highly sensitive to group dynamics by virtue of Ti (a social function), while they are much weaker with their Fe-Inf (a personal-relationship) function. But because they're introverts, they bring their social observations inward and analyze them to death. The result: They use their Ti analysis to produce philosophical and legal and political systems that define how people should get along with each other. In other words, INTP is strong at reading groups, but they bring it inside and intellectualize it to the point that it comes out as intellectual systems for regulating group behavior. Short version: Good at groups, but with a very intellectual output on the subject.

    ************
    Okay, I'm going to stop here. I'll get into Fe vs Fi in a separate post (though you can kind of see where I'm going if you look at Te vs Ti, above). But I thought it important to talk about the difference between F and T first. Why? Because a lot of the discussion in Fi-vs-Fe threads mashes together personal relationships and interactions in society. And according to my ideas, those two situations would represent two different functions, and so should be discussed separately. IOW, if you want to talk about F, then just talk about how you deal with close personal relationships.

    So again, let me stop here and ask: What do people think about the distinction that I'm drawing? F = personal relationships vs T = social and group interactions: Do you think it's total BS, or does the idea seem to have some merit? It's just an idea I'm toying with, so I'm genuinely interested in getting honest feedback on this. Then later, once a consensus on the F vs T idea arises, I'll follow with what I think is the main distinction between Fe and Fi.
    From my experience, ENFJs are often excellent at moving groups but tend to short-circuit when there multiple sources of competing drama because there's a pull to accommodate everyone so the bottom line/message gets distorted.

    ENTJs, on the other hand, are much better at deploying people to get to the bottom line but tend to struggle with maintaining group morale and culture.

    Group morale and culture are significant to maintain retention and trust in an organization whereas focusing on the bottom line is key for maintaining logistics and structure.

    Both are important but typically have different objectives and strengths for mobilizing people/groups.

    TJ types in my life tend to value me because I help them sort through the motivations and humanity of things... They respect me for my "deep understanding of people" while they really help me to step back and consider the logistics of things.
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