User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 127

  1. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Totenkindly View Post
    I've heard it referred to as task-based vs people-based. To accomplish a group task, you do need to know how to steer the ship / manage people, but the focus is on the task.

    [...]

    Yeah, i identify with that. I mean, I've had to develop the latter a lot due to various life scenarios, but I'm more intuitive at analyzing a group as a machine where people are the parts -- i,e., the top-down broad view. It's got an end goal and it views individuals as part of that goal and/or the role they play in reaching it.

    It's also not that one cannot have a very intense and perceptive view of a particular individual and experience empathy for them, but it tends to be generalized into the "human condition" -- i.e., as indicative of the experience that person is undergoing, as something any person can experience, and what that truth of experience is. That's the "sweet spot," and to focus solely on the specific person and just relate to that one person (without generalizing out to summarize some core truth) is what takes energy. Compare that to a perspective where the specific person is actually the end goal.
    Great post, thanks. I'll take it as confirmation on the Ti-Dom side.

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacrophagus View Post
    [snipped...] Now, if I had to make a comparison between the way I operate and my ENFJ friend's leadership style, I'd say she's a mother to all of them.

    -If I am to deploy two people to do a task, she will comment that they do not get along, while I don't care about that since they're individuals who give results.
    -I can infuse respect within a group, while she can infuse understanding and love.
    -I will encourage each one of them to preserve their individuality even among the group, while she puts an emphasis on anything that does not scream the word differences.
    -I have a sharp eye to read people's motivation and prognosticate their behavior, while she's more in tune with their feelings much like a sponge.
    -I care more about substance, while she cares more about its delivery.
    -She's also the kind of person who reads something disconcerting and types "...". It's hilarious.
    -In some rare occasions we might do the same thing, but with different intentions in mind.

    Regarding group dynamics, in times of turmoil and adversity, I am one who uses wisdom, knowledge, strength, determination, and leading by example to inspire them forward. In such times she feels useless because a harmonious atmosphere will not solve the problem nor pushes them to break their boundaries. She would still support them through everything even when support seems useless.

    Those are some of the key differences I can come up with in this short lapse of time.

    Some of your findings are on point. I will come back to you later.
    Yes, exactly. The second half of your post (quoted above) is pretty much how I envision the difference between Te-Dom vs Fe-Dom when exercising leadership roles. Fe-Dom can exercise a more touchy-feely type of leadership which is in line with today's philosophies. Whereas Te-Dom is more traditionalist and holistic and focused on putting together at team that gets results.

    But the main point is that both Te-Dom and Fe-Dom are, in fact, about people-handling. Just in very different fashions. That's how I'm reading it anyway. Great post.

  3. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I'm finding this an interesting discussion and am still collecting my thoughts on it. Thanks for starting it, @YUI.
    Thanks. I'm deliberately going a little slow with the thread so that people have time to think about the ideas and maybe provide some feedback if they're inclined. As I mentioned earlier, I still intend to post on the subject of Fe vs Fi. I'll post something on that subject Tuesday afternoon or evening.

  4. #24
    Fe this! Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,441

    Default

    I feel compelled to state for the record that I think the phrase "touchy-feely" is gross and that I think it's gross when people are touchy-feely. Google defines it as "openly expressing affection or other emotions, especially through physical contact." I think if that is being read into what I wrote, then it's being read incorrectly. At least in the context of needing to work together to complete some task, folks need to keep it in their pants. This may be a matter of semantics, but I mean, the meaning of words/phrases matters. And the expression "touchy-feely" actually has the connotation of crossing personal boundaries, which works against the kind of 'nurturing an environment of mutual respect" that I was trying to describe.

    I get the feeling this is going to fall on deaf ears, and that I simply don't know how to present the input in a way that's going to get heard, but whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post

    For me, I really feel I have a decent grasp of efficiency/operations, but part of what makes things optimally efficient is knowing where to put people / where strengths lie and who works better with whom, who hates doing certain things (so I'll try to accommodate preferences when deploying), but also recognizing when I have no better option so someone ends up needing to do something they don't particularly enjoy. Is what I'm describing simply an F bent on efficiencies? fwiw I'm not a strong F either, going by dichotomies.
    This is how I'd describe myself as well. I realize I'm an outlier as an FJ, but I don't have a lot of patience for personal hand-holding. What I am good at is observing from a distance and and sort of orchestrating which person should go where and what they should do. I might know to put people who need hand-holding together so that their need can cancel itself out (and which people this works with, as well as which people aren't compatible, etc), but I rarely have the patience to do this myself. My own personal inner landscape (for want of something better to call it) is loaded with mental post-it note observations I've made about people, and I can be good at pulling the strings in such a way that people work well together. Even when I have to tell someone they must do something they hate doing, I can be good at coming up with some way to tell them that makes it slightly less heinous (usually just acknowledging that it's heinous, saying that it needs to get done, and possibly explaining how the heinousness is being equally distributed - along those lines). All of the post-it note observations I've made (and not even consciously, it's just something that's constantly happening in the background of my mind any time someone is in my purview) help me know how to do these things. But as soon as someone needs me to listen to how their day has been or they need an audience to talk about personal stuff (unless it's directly germane to the task at hand) - especially if it's a regular occurrence, like they need this for 20 minutes a day from me in order to feel respected - then we're gonna have a problem.

    And I don't know, I don't really consider it hand-holding to do these things so much as I consider it troubleshooting issues/drama before it starts. It's easier to focus on the things that need to get done if there aren't a bunch of stupid, preventable little fires happening all over the place.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    INFJ 5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari -or- disagree with my type?
    Likes Lark, cascadeco, Consilience liked this post

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I feel compelled to state for the record that I think the phrase "touchy-feely" is gross and that I think it's gross when people are touchy-feely. Google defines it as "openly expressing affection or other emotions, especially through physical contact." I think if that is being read into what I wrote, then it's being read incorrectly. At least in the context of needing to work together to complete some task, folks need to keep it in their pants. This may be a matter of semantics, but I mean, the meaning of words/phrases matters. And the expression "touchy-feely" actually has the connotation of crossing personal boundaries, which works against the kind of 'nurturing an environment of mutual respect" that I was trying to describe.
    I see your point, and I agree with you. I'm just being imprecise when I use "touchy-feely" to describe the Fe way of doing things. I'm using "touchy-feely" in the sense of "being solicitous of feelings of the other person," but that's not exactly what "touchy-feely" technically means. So I'll quit using "touchy-feely" in that sense or context.

    As for the rest of your post: I'm not so much interested in *your* experience of *your own* Aux-Fe.

    Let me explain that by reiterating what I'm trying to accomplish in this thread. Basically, I'm trying to establish an F vs T division along the following lines:

    F is concerned with:
    --What is love? Loyalty? Betrayal? What kind of partner would I want? What kind of friend? Do I want a friend who competes with me, or a friend who supports me? Do I want a partner who challenges me, or a partner who mirrors me? What is sexy to me, versus what is not sexy to me? What causes me to trust people, and what causes me to mistrust people? What constitutes friendship? What do I do if I get angry at a friend? And so on...
    Whereas T is concerned with:
    --Where am I on the pecking order? What's my role in my social group? How much do I lead and how much do I follow? How do I deal with group conflict? What if I try to assert my wishes or demands and other members of the group frustrate me in that attempt? What if I fail? What if I succeed? Should I automatically do what others tell me, or can I do things differently from others? How do I handle the anger of others? How do I handle my own anger in the group setting? What if I get ostracized from the group? What if I get elected leader of the group? And so on...

    The tools that you develop at this stage are very different from the tools that you developed at the "F stage." Here, at the "T stage," you develop tools such as: The concepts of equity, equality, balance, social structure, social hierarchy, conflict management, anger management, leadership, followership, rank, pecking order, etc.
    I characterize this F-vs-T comparison, in short, in the following manner:
    T skills are in the realm of "social" or "group leadership" skills, as opposed to F skills being in the realm of "personal relationship" or "one-on-one interaction" skills.
    Thus, what I'm ideally looking for is people with broad experience of all types who can draw comparisons of both F and T and say whether or not they see F and T in a similar light.

    Therefore, I'm *less* interested in a precise and detailed breakdown of your own personal experiences of your own Aux-Fe. Thats partly because you're an Ni-Dom who has been a nurse and a manager (If I remember correctly). You might have picked up some Te management skills as part of your repertoire. Also, I could point to your description of your Aux-Fe skills and say that it sounds like a workplace-based use of F "personal relationship" or "one-on-one interaction" skills (as I've defined them), but you could interpret your experiences in a different way and try to prove how you see those same skills as "social" or "group leadership" skills (which I've defined as T skills).

    So your personal observations of your own Aux-Fe skills are of limited use. I would rather hear from people who have worked or lived with or have experience of *both* F-Doms and T-Doms in their lives, and who can do the same kind of broad F vs T comparisons that I have attempted, and can thus confirm or deny what I'm suggesting.

    Also: Not to put down your input, but you're an Ni-Dom, and Ni-Doms love long arguments. I've seen you go round and round with people on this topic in the past. (You're one of the chief participants in the never-ending Fe-vs-Fi wars in the past.) Based on what I've seen, I suspect we could slice and dice your description of your own experience of your own Aux-Fe forever and still never come to any agreement.

    So my position on this is as follows: I'm interested in hearing about your own experience of your Aux-Fe, and I've paid attention to what you've posted. But I don't want to get into a big digression with you about it. For purposes of this thread, I would rather stick to the topic of broad F vs T comparisons, in the spirit of what I've proposed in my own posts in this thread.

    To put it another way: You're an N-Dom, not an F-Dom or T-Dom. I would rather hear less about your *own* Aux-Fe, and more about your experiences with the various F-Doms and T-Doms that might be in your life.

  6. #26
    Somber and irritated cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post

    This is how I'd describe myself as well. I realize I'm an outlier as an FJ, but I don't have a lot of patience for personal hand-holding. What I am good at is observing from a distance and and sort of orchestrating which person should go where and what they should do. I might know to put people who need hand-holding together so that their need can cancel itself out (and which people this works with, as well as which people aren't compatible, etc), but I rarely have the patience to do this myself. My own personal inner landscape (for want of something better to call it) is loaded with mental post-it note observations I've made about people, and I can be good at pulling the strings in such a way that people work well together. Even when I have to tell someone they must do something they hate doing, I can be good at coming up with some way to tell them that makes it slightly less heinous (usually just acknowledging that it's heinous, saying that it needs to get done, and possibly explaining how the heinousness is being equally distributed - along those lines). All of the post-it note observations I've made (and not even consciously, it's just something that's constantly happening in the background of my mind any time someone is in my purview) help me know how to do these things. But as soon as someone needs me to listen to how their day has been or they need an audience to talk about personal stuff (unless it's directly germane to the task at hand) - especially if it's a regular occurrence, like they need this for 20 minutes a day from me in order to feel respected - then we're gonna have a problem.

    And I don't know, I don't really consider it hand-holding to do these things so much as I consider it troubleshooting issues/drama before it starts. It's easier to focus on the things that need to get done if there aren't a bunch of stupid, preventable little fires happening all over the place.
    Wow, I 100% agree with this. I know I've talked about this in my blog but many may not have seen it, so I'll share it here too - I'm not known as being a super 'feelery' person at work, nor am I one to gush with emotion or hand-hold anyone (or hand-hold/emotionally placate customers in a way they may actually desire) - thus I can come across as IxTx to customers, for sure, and with coworkers, IxTJ. Some of it (maybe a lot of it) is age -- whereas when younger I was much less liable to 'rock the boat' or even be *viewed* as curmudgeonly/ not-having-it, this has significantly decreased with time.

    I am *excellent* - same as the example you shared - at commiserating with fellow team-members though and acknowledging when something I know is crappy needs to be done and even saying I know they don't like it but it has to get done. I find being super up front about stuff like this - not even trying to sugar coat or needlessly try to put a 'spin' on it -- works really well. I just view it as being really honest but also upfront about what needs to be done. I like to think it's my way of 'connecting' with teammates - recognizing preferences, doing my best to cater to them, but also being real when things just need to get done or my other options are terrible / would result in terrible operations so they need to take one for the team, ha.
    -------------

    My current boss is an ENFx (I'm pretty sure he's ENFP but I'm just leaving it ENFx as probably a lot of people on here would type him as ENFJ because he's very warm / might be viewed as dom-Fe), and he is the epitome of people-empathizer -- he's very affirming of everyone, including all of the more obnoxious customers; and he's got such an inclination to give everyone a chance that he's hired some folks all of the rest of us just facepalm and lament over -- just, there's a point where you have to stop being a bleeding heart and start realizing some people just shouldn't be hired, period, and there can be significant negative repercussions to always trying to see the good in people and giving people chances that no one else would likely hire. But he hasn't reached that stage yet, ha. So I'd say my boss is a more extreme ENFx such as is being discussed in this thread in terms of what ENF managers can be like. He is extremely excellent at meeting your needs and accommodating any issues you may have with scheduling or whatnot; I would say though that he has a hard time being firm, being the 'bad guy'/taking the reins if there is a behavioral problem, and per the above, can make hiring decisions that aren't great for the team as a whole, where others have to then pick up the slack.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints

  7. #27
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    15,878

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post


    Whereas T is concerned with:

    --Where am I on the pecking order? What's my role in my social group? How much do I lead and how much do I follow? How do I deal with group conflict? What if I try to assert my wishes or demands and other members of the group frustrate me in that attempt? What if I fail? What if I succeed? Should I automatically do what others tell me, or can I do things differently from others? How do I handle the anger of others? How do I handle my own anger in the group setting? What if I get ostracized from the group? What if I get elected leader of the group? And so on...

    The tools that you develop at this stage are very different from the tools that you developed at the "F stage." Here, at the "T stage," you develop tools such as: The concepts of equity, equality, balance, social structure, social hierarchy, conflict management, anger management, leadership, followership, rank, pecking order, etc.
    Get out a stopwatch and clock how long it takes to read/ think about any of that. Then ask yourself how anyone could lead with that rolling around in their skull and actually get anything done.

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Get out a stopwatch and clock how long it takes to read/ think about any of that. Then ask yourself how anyone could lead with that rolling around in their skull and actually get anything done.
    My point is that those issues (pecking order, conflict management, etc.) are questions that *everyone* faces in their late youth and adolescence. *All* the personality types have to deal with these issues. And they work out their own answers to those questions over time.

    But my idea is that Thinkers tend to continue viewing the world through that particular prism more than other types. Thus, Te-Doms tend to turn that mentality into the way they deal with the world through long habit, making it an automatic way of seeing the world--they can decide those types of issues almost instantaneously. Whereas Ti-Doms use those same principles inwardly to work out (over time) theories about philosophy, law, etc. But it takes years with them, because they work it all out in detail in their internal Ti laboratories.

    (See my earlier posts where I described all this in detail.)

  9. #29
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    15,878

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    My point is that those issues (pecking order, conflict management, etc.) are the questions that *everyone* faces in their late youth and adolescence. *All* the personality types have to deal with these issues. And they work out their own answers to those questions over time.

    But my idea is that Thinkers tend to continue viewing the world through that particular prism more than other types. Thus, Te-Doms tend to turn that mentality into the way they deal with the world through long habit, making it an automatic way of seeing the world--they can decide those things almost instantaneously. Whereas Ti-Doms use those same principles inwardly to work out (over time) theories about philosophy, law, etc. But it takes years with them, because they work it all out in detail in their internal Ti laboratories.

    (See my earlier posts where I described all this in detail.)
    While I have seen what you speak of in far more conventional types, including those who beat on their chest like Tarzan, it is something I find tedious and gets in the way of reaching my goal. On a side note, be careful writing in absolutes - using words such as "everyone" and "all" detracts from what you are saying and could lead to someone not taking you seriously.

  10. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    While I have seen what you speak of in far more conventional types, including those who beat on their chest like Tarzan, it is something I find tedious and gets in the way of reaching my goal.
    I assume you're suggesting that you're a TJ. So you find that those things are tedious in what sense--they're old familiar territory for you and not worthy of note? Or you simply don't use those things and find them a non-issue?

    On a side note, be careful writing in absolutes - using words such as "everyone" and "all" detracts from what you are saying and could lead to someone not taking you seriously.
    That's good advice. Thanks. I'm just suffering from typical F-Dom lack of precision.

Similar Threads

  1. Ideas for part time jobs that involve little social interaction?
    By DigitalMethod in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 04-03-2010, 04:03 PM
  2. Scarcity & Social Interaction
    By Eldanen in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 10-13-2008, 11:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO