[MBTI General] Fe vs. Fi discussion

[cacaia]

Having to talk to strangers definitely exhausts me. The way the world is turning ( nationalism rising) exhausts me. The thought that humans think they're apart and better than animals exhausts me. People being ostricized, ridiculed, bullied exhausts me, as well as people being forced to live in the streets, and all of the suffering experienced in this world also exhausts me.
Talking about metaphysics, the wonders of the universe, strange happenings, and philosophy about how things are the way they are energize me. Walking and feeling the sun in my face as I smell nature around me energizes me. The laughter of a child or that aha moment they have when they just mastered something energizes me.

 

[Pionart]

Having to talk to strangers definitely exhausts me. The way the world is turning ( nationalism rising) exhausts me. The thought that humans think they're apart and better than animals exhausts me. People being ostricized, ridiculed, bullied exhausts me, as well as people being forced to live in the streets, and all of the suffering experienced in this world also exhausts me.
Talking about metaphysics, the wonders of the universe, strange happenings, and philosophy about how things are the way they are energize me. Walking and feeling the sun in my face as I smell nature around me energizes me. The laughter of a child or that aha moment they have when they just mastered something energizes me.

The thing about metaphysics etc. probably suggests high intuition, but the rest is basically saying: positive things energise you, and negative things drain you. That sounds non-type related, though the specific things you mention might be type-indicative.

 

[Mind Maverick]

You sound very ntj, actually.

I struggle with schedules and routine because of how strongly I dislike them, I'm spontaneous and hardly plan anything in advance (and when I try I usually seem incapable of sticking with that plan and forsake it for some spontaneous replacement)...did I mention I hate routine?

But if you say so.

 

[Pionart]

I struggle with schedules and routine because of how strongly I dislike them, I'm spontaneous and hardly plan anything in advance (and when I try I usually seem incapable of sticking with that plan and forsake it for some spontaneous replacement)...did I mention I hate routine?

But if you say so.

I'm pretty sure routine is an SJ thing.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I'm pretty sure routine is an SJ thing.

Myers and Briggs / Official MBTI says you're mistaken.

 

[Pionart]

Myers and Briggs / Official MBTI says you're mistaken.

I don't know what the Official MBTI says, but I don't see why Ni (or even Fe) would contribute to a sense of routine.

--

We've had this discussion before.... Ni is goal focused in the sense of being driven to achieve long-term goals, often with a creative focus. Fe is action-oriented and organised in a social/"ethical" sense. NFJs are structure-oriented. But routine, I think not. The Official MBTI must have it wrong, it doesn't sound accurate at all.

Te plans things but not in the sense of a routine. Si must be responsible for doing set things day/week after day/week.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I don't know what the Official MBTI says, but I don't see why Ni (or even Fe) would contribute to a sense of routine.

--

We've had this discussion before.... Ni is goal focused in the sense of being driven to achieve long-term goals, often with a creative focus. Fe is action-oriented and organised in a social/"ethical" sense. NFJs are structure-oriented. But routine, I think not. The Official MBTI must have it wrong, it doesn't sound accurate at all.

Te plans things but not in the sense of a routine. Si must be responsible for doing set things day/week after day/week.

If we've had this discussion before, why are you insisting I believe it again? It's fine if you disagree with the existing theories out there, but don't expect me and everyone else to drop everything ordained by those who defined what everything is when they formed the system and go running to your personal theories. I don't agree with you, plain and simple...and there is no room for correcting me or saying I'm wrong because it's not that I'm wrong, it's just that you have different ideas...so stop "correcting" me every time you see me defining J as scheduling, routine, etc.

 

[Pionart]

If we've had this discussion before, why are you insisting I believe it again? It's fine if you disagree with the existing theories out there, but don't expect me and everyone else to drop everything ordained by those who defined what everything is when they formed the system and go running to your personal theories. I don't agree with you, plain and simple...and there is no room for correcting me or saying I'm wrong because it's not that I'm wrong, it's just that you have different ideas. Now excuse me while I continue to define J as scheduling, routine, etc.

I'll just point out that type is something that exists in reality (or is purported to, and seems to), not something that Myers and Briggs invented. They tried to figure out what it was, and that doesn't mean they got it right.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I'll just point out that type is something that exists in reality (or is purported to, and seems to), not something that Myers and Briggs invented. They tried to figure out what it was, and that doesn't mean they got it right.

And you coming up with things that make sense to you personally but differ from M&B doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong, either. I think typology is mostly a load of bullshit anyways though, like a Forer effect, and I treat it like a game...therefore, I follow the rules the game makers setup instead of sitting around wasting my energy on typology when I could be cognitively navigating better topics and getting more return on investment as a result. So again...we disagree. It also makes no sense to me as to why people try to find their MBTI type, using the Myers and Briggs Type Indicator, and then completely stray from everything Myers and Briggs. Last time I checked it wasn't called LegionTI. As I stated prior, it's fine to disagree with things and theorize, but if you're going to invent your own system don't go around "correcting" me as though it's the official decree or definition just because it's what seems to make sense to you at the time, and then expect me to abandon what I think and jump aboard your personal theories. So next time I say J = scheduling, routine, etc...you now know not to waste your breath arguing with me about it. I personally would disagree with you even without the Official MBTI opposing what you're saying anyways, partially because you contradict yourself when you say NFJs are structured but not routine oriented because routine is often just a component of structure. I think you seem to like to act like you know what you're talking about when you don't, just like you did when you said in my blog that my bipolar symptoms were just regular emotional issues that were my own fault. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about and yet you assert utter nonsense anyways.

 

[Pionart]

And you coming up with things that make sense to you personally but differ from M&B doesn't mean you're right and they're wrong, either. I think typology is mostly a load of bullshit anyways though, like a Forer effect, and I treat it like a game...therefore, I follow the rules the game makers setup instead of sitting around wasting my energy on typology when I could be cognitively navigating better topics and getting more return on investment as a result. So again...we disagree. It also makes no sense to me as to why people try to find their MBTI type, using the Myers and Briggs Type Indicator, and then completely stray from everything Myers and Briggs. Last time I checked it wasn't called LegionTI. As I stated prior, it's fine to disagree with things and theorize, but if you're going to invent your own system don't go around "correcting" me as though it's the official decree or definition just because it's what seems to make sense to you at the time, and then expect me to abandon what I think and jump aboard your personal theories. So next time I say J = scheduling, routine, etc...you now know not to waste your breath arguing with me about it. I personally would disagree with you even without the Official MBTI opposing what you're saying anyways, partially because you contradict yourself when you say NFJs are structured but not routine oriented because routine is often just a component of structure. I think you seem to like to act like you know what you're talking about when you don't, just like you did when you said in my blog that my bipolar symptoms were just regular emotional issues that were my own fault. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about and yet you assert utter nonsense anyways.

I didn't expect you to jump on board with what I said. I don't know what I expected because you've said that you're not that into this stuff. But what I hope for in general is for people who know their stuff to chime in.

I've studied typology for 8 or 9 years. I've made discoveries, which may or may not be original contributions to the field. I've earnt the right to make claims based on the best of my knowledge.

Again, I'll say refer to the post you quoted. Type is something in reality, meaning people other than Myers and Briggs can make contributions to it. Newton didn't set the rules of physics, he discovered the rules, and Einstein improved on the rules because he saw things that Newton didn't. Einstein wasn't wrong because he contradicted Newton, rather it was confirmed in terms of reality.

If you don't want to invest time into discovering how type works, that's ok, you don't have to, but I've invested a lot of time into it, and if I'm wrong I'd like to be shown why.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I didn't expect you to jump on board with what I said. I don't know what I expected because you've said that you're not that into this stuff. But what I hope for in general is for people who know their stuff to chime in.

I've studied typology for 8 or 9 years. I've made discoveries, which may or may not be original contributions to the field. I've earnt the right to make claims based on the best of my knowledge.

Again, I'll say refer to the post you quoted. Type is something in reality, meaning people other than Myers and Briggs can make contributions to it. Newton didn't set the rules of physics, he discovered the rules, and Einstein improved on the rules because he saw things that Newton didn't. Einstein wasn't wrong because he contradicted Newton, rather it was confirmed in terms of reality.

If you don't want to invest time into discovering how type works, that's ok, you don't have to, but I've invested a lot of time into it, and if I'm wrong I'd like to be shown why.

You did expect me to jump on board with what you said, otherwise you would not have "corrected" me by saying "I'm pretty sure routine is an SJ thing." Not just once, but twice now you've done that. You did not ask me to chime in, if you were wanting that from the start you would have said something such as, "why do you think it's a J thing?" or, "what are your thoughts about (insert your ideas)?"

I understand what you were saying, I'm simply saying I disagree that typology is an existing thing that is discovered and is comparable to physics, thus I treat the system differently than you do. Typology does not have a scientific foundation.

 

[Pionart]

You did expect me to jump on board with what you said, otherwise you would not have "corrected" me by saying "I'm pretty sure routine is an SJ thing." You did not ask me to chime in, if you were wanting that from the start you would have said something such as, "why do you think it's a J thing?" or, "what are your thoughts about (insert your ideas)?"

I understand what you were saying, I'm simply saying I disagree that typology is an existing thing that is discovered and is comparable to physics, thus I treat the system differently. Typology does not have a scientific foundation.

I thought you might consider it. You can't tell me what I do or don't expect. You're making assumptions about my intentions, and then attacking me for it.

I'll continue to give my opinion based on my expertise, and you can take it or leave it. Consider it with an open mind, or shut it down because it doesn't fit with your opinion of how type works. There's no need to attack me.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I thought you might consider it. You can't tell me what I do or don't expect. You're making assumptions about my intentions, and then attacking me for it.

I'll continue to give my opinion based on my expertise, and you can take it or leave it. Consider it with an open mind, or shut it down because it doesn't fit with your opinion of how type works. There's no need to attack me.

You have a strange definition of "attacking" if you believe I'm attacking you.

This entire conversation has been ridiculous and petty. I never gave a damn about anyone's "expertise," nor did I ask for it; quite contrary, the point I was making throughout that entire conversation was "leave me alone about it." Now please leave me alone in general. I come on here for breaks from work, not to argue with self-proclaimed "experts" about typology.

 

[typologyenthusiast]

[MENTION=37308]cacaia[/MENTION]
Another suggested way of self typing for feeler, when you are pretty sure that you are a feeler; you want to identify yourself further whether you are an Fe type or Fi type:
• Try to Identify what feeling that you are conscious of at the present moment.
It may be easier for you just tell that you feel this and that, instead of saying a specified feeling that you are actually not really sure what the feeling is. “Saying that you are worry” is correct only when the feeling that gets conscious is indeed a worry feeling; not something else.
• Try identify whether the feeling is naturally extroverted, try tracing the source of condition of what you judge by feeling.
Some feeling is arguably extroverted e,g annoyed, disappointed, since they get conscious by the outside world reality and respond towards it. If you judge condition, Ask question where is the source of this condition? E.g When you see that a mirror is broken, you say the mirror is broken. Broken is the condition of the mirror. It is termed extroverted by Jung, when the feeling of condition of broken gets conscious by the source that does not come from you yourself as an obsrever; but it comes from there from outside of you: in this hypothetical case: a broken mirror.
Check your response towards the condition.
What do you do when you get conscious that there is a broken mirror in front of you. You may want to throw it away, and replace it for another mirror, since with the broken mirror, you can’t see clearly your shadow anymore as you used to be able to.
• Your conclusion drawn, whether you identify yourself as an extroverted feeler.
P.S:You should be sure that you understand the theory of extroverted feeling. It shares the characteristics of getting conscious triggered by of outside world condition and will respond towards the outside world also.

 

[cacaia]

You have a strange definition of "attacking" if you believe I'm attacking you. This entire conversation has been ridiculous and petty. I never gave a damn about anyone's "expertise," nor did I ask for it; quite contrary, the point I was making throughout that entire conversation was "leave me alone about it." Now please leave me alone in general. I come on here for breaks from work, not to argue with self-proclaimed "experts" about typology.

Yikes, you guys. I agree that there is no need to argue and hold grounds in such a way. Remember, everyone will have their own opinions about this. It's frustrating that we cannot get a surefire answer, and I get why some ( most of the NTs I know, actually) may feel this is bullshit. I think some of it definitely is...yet there is some truth to Myers Briggs typology.... So ...find a common thread that you guys can agree on??? Peace, all.

 

[cacaia]

[MENTION=37308]cacaia[/MENTION] Another suggested way of self typing for feeler, when you are pretty sure that you are a feeler; you want to identify yourself further whether you are an Fe type or Fi type: • Try to Identify what feeling that you are conscious of at the present moment. It may be easier for you just tell that you feel this and that, instead of saying a specified feeling that you are actually not really sure what the feeling is. "Saying that you are worry" is correct only when the feeling that gets conscious is indeed a worry feeling; not something else. • Try identify whether the feeling is naturally extroverted, try tracing the source of condition of what you judge by feeling. Some feeling is arguably extroverted e,g annoyed, disappointed, since they get conscious by the outside world reality and respond towards it. If you judge condition, Ask question where is the source of this condition? E.g When you see that a mirror is broken, you say the mirror is broken. Broken is the condition of the mirror. It is termed extroverted by Jung, when the feeling of condition of broken gets conscious by the source that does not come from you yourself as an obsrever; but it comes from there from outside of you: in this hypothetical case: a broken mirror. Check your response towards the condition. What do you do when you get conscious that there is a broken mirror in front of you. You may want to throw it away, and replace it for another mirror, since with the broken mirror, you can't see clearly your shadow anymore as you used to be able to. • Your conclusion drawn, whether you identify yourself as an extroverted feeler. P.S:You should be sure that you understand the theory of extroverted feeling. It shares the characteristics of getting conscious triggered by of outside world condition and will respond towards the outside world also.

Mmm. When I read about that mirror example, I visualized it
( as I always do, whether reading or listening to people telling a story)...say there IS a broken mirror in front of me.... 1st thought: that mirror is broken. 2nd thought....noticing its details, color, shape size.....3rd thought...broken mirrors are considered bad luck. Who broke this mirror? What happened that it is broken? Maybe someone was just clumsy? What if there was a fight? Etc.
Do not know still if this is Fe or Fi...so things I notice always start in the moment and then start to develop in my mind with " I wonder what happened?" or, "I wonder why that is here in the exact moment I happen to pass by it?" And then on to possibilities...and I'm used to not finding an answer. Often I Marvel at the thought that things happen at the exact moment they happen.....see why I'm still confused? 😄

 

[typologyenthusiast]

[MENTION=37308]cacaia[/MENTION] You seemed to think rather than feel. When the thinking is conscious, feeling is unconscious, interpreted empirically, at the moment when we get conscious of feeling, we can't help, but not to think. Vice versa.

For self typing, Try writing down of your feeling. I notice this as one of habitual expressions of intuitive type. You should get more familiarity of the cognitive functions. You may reread it later for self typing.

 

[Pionart]

Yikes, you guys. I agree that there is no need to argue and hold grounds in such a way. Remember, everyone will have their own opinions about this. It's frustrating that we cannot get a surefire answer, and I get why some ( most of the NTs I know, actually) may feel this is bullshit. I think some of it definitely is...yet there is some truth to Myers Briggs typology.... So ...find a common thread that you guys can agree on??? Peace, all.

I've added her to ignore, just in case I ever try to help her again.

 

[Pionart]

[MENTION=37308]cacaia[/MENTION] You seemed to think rather than feel. When the thinking is conscious, feeling is unconscious, interpreted empirically, at the moment when we get conscious of feeling, we can't help, but not to think. Vice versa.

For self typing, Try writing down of your feeling. I notice this as one of habitual expressions of intuitive type. You should get more familiarity of the cognitive functions. You may reread it later for self typing.

Can't Thinking and Feeling be used simultaneously though? Or pretty close to it anyway. When I speak, my speech is slowed down by making sure what I'm saying is technically correct, so in that case they're going in reverse directions, but I would say they're still being used simultaneously. Same thing with helping someone in terms of logical principles, such as sharing (think utilitarianism).

Also, when doing vocal reads for example, I'm using Sensing and Intuition simultaneously, because I'm hearing sounds in terms of a concept, e.g. "introverted feeling vocal qualities" when someone does an "emotive draw".

I'm not sure if, say Fe and Fi are able to be used simultaneously such that both are conscious though. I think the common understanding is that Fe and Ti can both be conscious, but not Fe and Fi (though that would require further investigation to confirm, since the secondary type phenomenon, if it's real, is such that INFJ can access INFP cognition fairly easily). Though, Jung had a different understanding, but I think we can safely say that Jung's understanding, while it got the ball rolling, has been superseded by this point.

Also, regarding writing things down to get a self-typing, I'll point out again that writing about whatever, and then looking at the flow of themes (i.e. the way in which one aspect of the topic was considered, then another, then another) can lead to a self-typing according to function sequencing, and can be a way of exploring secondary types, and can be a way of exploring whatever it is you want to explore. Writing can be highly illuminating.

 

[typologyenthusiast]

Can't Thinking and Feeling be used simultaneously though? Or pretty close to it anyway.

No. Not at exactly the same moment. Only for the balanced one. Not all can successfully get conscious either feeling or thinking interchangeably. If you are sure you can think and feel, then my comment is that should be good for you.
Jung was arguably an example of balanced type. He was an intuitor and a sensor, a feeler and a thinker. By balancing, he was able to write a lot of books in psychiatry, which is an intuitor works, and also painting, stone carving, which is identified as a sensation type work.
Jung books.
Carl Jung publications - Wikipedia
Jung Painting
Take a look at pages from The Red Book by Carl Jung | Books | The Guardian
Jung was identified as INFJ also.

video while Jung was stonecarving

YouTube

Jung Stonecarving
Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7c/cb/ba/7ccbba12771052a997f9c6fbb253fed9.jpg

P.S. Actually balanced is a term to indicate the ability to get conscious both feeling and thinking; not only feeling can get conscious and but also thinking and not only intuition can get conscious but also sensation.
Jung may have termed others than balancing to mean the same. If i am no mistaken, He say, "compensatory" for this.