[MBTI General] Fe vs. Fi discussion

[EnfpRob]

Well the truth is we all use Fi. Fi users know what they love and value and don't care if others agree with them or not. Fe users don't trust their Fi or they would rather check with other people about what they should love and value to make sure it's something that aligns with the tribe.
Fe and Fi are decision making functions so if you're confused look to see how you make decisions.
Example say a Fi and Fe are trying to decide on a car to buy. An Fi user will make a decision and will not consult anyone. They know what they want in a car. An Fe user might really like a certain car but they don't trust themselves or want to see what her tribe thinks so he will as family and friends what they think about a car.
Another example is how you decide to vote for a politician. Do you make a decision on your own and then stick to it. Or, do you look towards your tribe vote according to what your friends family, coworkers and neighbors are doing.
So you get swayed easily by others or do you stick to your guns when you make a decision especially towards decisions that are deciding your values or what you should be loving.
If your in a relationship, are you asking other people what you should do? Or are you the type that believes that no one other than yourself knows what's the right thing to do for yourself?if someone suggest you should break up with your boyfriend because of x,y and z.. do you start questioning if you should or do you get annoyed that someone is giving you unwanted advice and feel they should mind their own businesss.

 

[cascadeco]

Well the truth is we all use Fi. Fi users know what they love and value and don't care if others agree with them or not. Fe users don't trust their Fi or they would rather check with other people about what they should love and value to make sure it's something that aligns with the tribe.
Fe and Fi are decision making functions so if you're confused look to see how you make decisions.
Example say a Fi and Fe are trying to decide on a car to buy. An Fi user will make a decision and will not consult anyone. They know what they want in a car. An Fe user might really like a certain car but they don't trust themselves or want to see what her tribe thinks so he will as family and friends what they think about a car.
Another example is how you decide to vote for a politician. Do you make a decision on your own and then stick to it. Or, do you look towards your tribe vote according to what your friends family, coworkers and neighbors are doing.
So you get swayed easily by others or do you stick to your guns when you make a decision especially towards decisions that are deciding your values or what you should be loving.
If your in a relationship, are you asking other people what you should do? Or are you the type that believes that no one other than yourself knows what's the right thing to do for yourself?if someone suggest you should break up with your boyfriend because of x,y and z.. do you start questioning if you should or do you get annoyed that someone is giving you unwanted advice and feel they should mind their own businesss.

So, I don't disagree with everything you write here, but I do think what I have bolded is precisely why a lot of Fe users don't relate to comments made about Fe.

I think you are close to the mark when you suggest a reason for seeking externally is due to a lack of trust in self, but I think you really miss the boat when you attribute the motivation to being a need to do exactly what the 'group'/tribe does. (Note here: the word 'tribe' is also going to be poor for many Fe users because introverts especially aren't going to see themselves as having a 'group' --- introverts by nature are very 1:1 people. So the 'group' in the context of an IxFJ or IxTP might in fact just be their spouse. I mean, if we're being real, here). Tied to lack of trust -- an FJ by his very nature does not base his world view solely on his own whims and notions -- part of what sculpts and forms those beliefs is other views -- a more complete picture can be formed. Vs just my own views? Heck, I can believe in any damn thing on my own but I might be 100% wrong. You know? I think that's where FJ's value other input - it adds more data and gives a more cohesive view of everything. Now the key here is seeking input from *trusted*/valued sources - sources who don't try to influence one way or another but simply add thoughts and leave it to the FJ to ultimately decide.

While I do think FJ's will seek out input much more readily than FP's, and find value in external feedback, it's not for the reason of having some compulsion to blindly follow whatever anyone says. It's not out of a need of... omg... who should I vote for... I can't possibly come up with it on my own... I have to do what everyone else does!!! I mean, that's silly. An Fe user more often feels they can't possibly complete the full picture on their own -- they know they may have gaps or blind spots, maybe they're misconstruing something -- so they might ask others about such things. They then may *or may not* agree with the other person. But sure, there is an element of, if an Fe user has a 'group' who consists of a spouse and two kids, then sure, they'll likely decide they want to consult their spouse (and maybe their kids) regarding a handful of car options, rather than just going out on a whim and buying a convertible. I mean..lol. Or an FJ who has no 'group' in the context of sharing any material goods more often than not won't consult anyone outside of any personal research they might do. Or they might consult someone if in their research they are uncertain about something and wanted to see if the other person comes to the same conclusion.

Too, the other persons' thoughts would likely be deemed equally important as ones own when it comes to a joint or group decision process. Since....every single person would be impacted by said decision.

But this whole 'doing what the tribe wants to do and thinking what they think' by default is nonsense. (If you are not saying this, I apologize -- this notion just kind of wafts through the breeze in these discussions) I mean, my NOT doing this is one reason I've been typed as Fi on this site, and why many FJ's decide they don't identify with Fe.

Just my two cents. And ofc this may not ring true or resonate with all FJ's / Fe.

 

[Tilt]

So, I don't disagree with everything you write here, but I do think what I have bolded is precisely why a lot of Fe users don't relate to comments made about Fe.

I think you are close to the mark when you suggest a reason for seeking externally is due to a lack of trust in self, but I think you really miss the boat when you attribute the motivation to being a need to do exactly what the 'group'/tribe does. (Note here: the word 'tribe' is also going to be poor for many Fe users because introverts especially aren't going to see themselves as having a 'group' --- introverts by nature are very 1:1 people. So the 'group' in the context of an IxFJ or IxTP might in fact just be their spouse. I mean, if we're being real, here). Tied to lack of trust -- an FJ by his very nature does not base his world view solely on his own whims and notions -- part of what sculpts and forms those beliefs is other views -- a more complete picture can be formed. Vs just my own views? Heck, I can believe in any damn thing on my own but I might be 100% wrong. You know? I think that's where FJ's value other input - it adds more data and gives a more cohesive view of everything. Now the key here is seeking input from *trusted*/valued sources - sources who don't try to influence one way or another but simply add thoughts and leave it to the FJ to ultimately decide.

While I do think FJ's will seek out input much more readily than FP's, and find value in external feedback, it's not for the reason of having some compulsion to blindly follow whatever anyone says. It's not out of a need of... omg... who should I vote for... I can't possibly come up with it on my own... I have to do what everyone else does!!! I mean, that's silly. An Fe user more often feels they can't possibly complete the full picture on their own -- they know they may have gaps or blind spots, maybe they're misconstruing something -- so they might ask others about such things. They then may *or may not* agree with the other person. But sure, there is an element of, if an Fe user has a 'group' who consists of a spouse and two kids, then sure, they'll likely decide they want to consult their spouse (and maybe their kids) regarding a handful of car options, rather than just going out on a whim and buying a convertible. I mean..lol. Or an FJ who has no 'group' in the context of sharing any material goods more often than not won't consult anyone outside of any personal research they might do. Or they might consult someone if in their research they are uncertain about something and wanted to see if the other person comes to the same conclusion.

Too, the other persons' thoughts would likely be deemed equally important as ones own when it comes to a joint or group decision process. Since....every single person would be impacted by said decision.

But this whole 'doing what the tribe wants to do and thinking what they think' by default is nonsense. (If you are not saying this, I apologize -- this notion just kind of wafts through the breeze in these discussions) I mean, my NOT doing this is one reason I've been typed as Fi on this site, and why many FJ's decide they don't identify with Fe.

Just my two cents. And ofc this may not ring true or resonate with all FJ's / Fe.

This here is precisely why I resisted typing as an ENFJ. Even though I seek out others' input, at the end of the day, I tend to do what I believe is best and am pretty darn stubborn about it. I just have a strong preference in sound boarding with others first to confirm or deny my assumptions and will factor that data into my final decision.

 

[Agent Washington]

I do seek input when making decisions, gotta suss out which way the wind blows...

(Why do I score so high with Fi anyway?)

 

[Zhaylin]

Heh, all of these things are so confusing and made worse by all the “experts” who are trying to refine the system.
I just too Eric Thor’s preferences/strength test. I got Fj and Fp tied at the top at 85% followed by Fe. Fi was much further down than it should have been at something like 72%

Then I took his personality test and came out as an INFJ. Um, no way Jose

 

[Virtual ghost]

Agreed. I am Fe dom who prefers the "triple hidden" tritype (359) so if you were to look at my surface behavior, a lot of it doesn't look stereotypically Fe.

EDIT: Just from a superficial, dichotomous perspective, people often type me as an INTX type and I get compared to my INTJ co-worker the most in my company.

Silly question: what makes you think you are ENFJ instead of INFJ ?

 

[Tilt]

Silly question: what makes you think you are ENFJ instead of INFJ ?

I prefer Fe. I have a strong, blunt personality. Just ask [MENTION=22257]Tater[/MENTION] lol

 

[Tater]

I prefer Fe. I have a strong, blunt personality. Just ask [MENTION=22257]Tater[/MENTION] lol

Can confirm.

 

[Hermit of the Forest]

This here is precisely why I resisted typing as an ENFJ. Even though I seek out others' input, at the end of the day, I tend to do what I believe is best and am pretty darn stubborn about it. I just have a strong preference in sound boarding with others first to confirm or deny my assumptions and will factor that data into my final decision.

This is very much like my INFJ mother. She will pull me in for input and to act as a sounding board, but ultimately makes her own decisions. I’m just a step in her process, a trusted consultant.

 

[cacaia]

This is very much like my INFJ mother. She will pull me in for input and to act as a sounding board, but ultimately makes her own decisions. I'm just a step in her process, a trusted consultant.

It's pretty much how I make decisions, too.... I'll ask for lots of " what so you think"s from some of my most trusted people, but in the end will make my own decision.

 

[Zhaylin]

If I’m curious about something- a random health annoyance, psychology, the state of the world etc, I’ll ask for lots of input. I want to know the experiences of others to see if they mesh with mine, or I’ll turn to them for their expertise or opinions.
If it’s something that effects my day to day, if it doesn’t really concern others, or if I’ve made up my mind about something, then I tend to be a wall. (Such as, I’ll pick my car- I don’t really care about your experiences or official stats. I like what I like and I’ll be the one driving it. Or: I will never have carpeting in another home, I don’t really care how cold your feet get. Wear slippers lol.) I never outright SAY I don’t value their input. I’ll patiently listen. Their arguments won’t sway me though.

 

[Red Memories]

Dang I should reply to some of these. I'm shocked this hit off as much as it did. XD

 

[Red Memories]

I feel like a lot of the stuff being discussed could come down more to enneagram than cognitive function. For instance, valuing harmony. Withdrawing instead of engaging in conflict.

Really isn't the distinction whether one looks outward or inward first and/or primarily when using the F function? I think part of the problem in discussing this is that we search for examples where the behavior could be the result of either.

I like enneagram being use as a compliment to MBTI. I think enneagram can explain slight variances in type. For instance an INFP 8 is not going to be as conflict avoidant as an INFP 9. I tried to keep the fact both parties can use conflict and such out of it, but focused heavily on HOW they handle the issue at hand normally for that function. Hence I said both types have values and can stand up for them, both types can confront a conflict, but both types have a different way of doing the dance.

 

[Red Memories]

[MENTION=1206]cascadeco[/MENTION] [MENTION=36353]Hexcoder[/MENTION] I find it interesting you do not like cognitive functions. I used to kind of read MBTI from dichotomies but only really understood types when I finally started to learn what those functions are. I believe there is validity to cognitive functions but I think the problem is many people do not understand the cognitive functions themselves, or how they work. Many try to make cognitive functions stand alone when they work together. In a sense the dichotomies can seem easier to grasp, and easier to fall into since they are sort of a sum of something, but I don't think it helps you to understand how all those bits work together. This of course is a theoretical idea difference between us. I like the introspecting and understanding I feel I get from studying and grasping cognitive functions and how they work upon an axis. It helps me to see how these parts break up and work together, or break apart together. I don't think the theory is entirely out. Just my 2 cents on that stuff. XD

 

[Red Memories]

I used to think that I had inferior Fe (due to INTP/ISTP typing). I'm not sure if that was the case, but yes, I can put on an Fe mask. One of my regrets is kind of a failure to connect with an ENFJ because of the Fe dom giving me a certain "vibe" that just didn't gel.

Connecting with high Fe users is usually a challenge. They navigate the social world in a completely different way, and dominate so much of social discourse that I just don't seem to stand a chance anyway.

Having something as the inferior function means you filter the world through it. It could be that, which can come from some thinkers, perhaps you do not navigate the world in the same light as a feeler period. But as an FP type I tend to struggle with dom Fe types as well. Particularly ENFJ. I think they are just a little difficult to grab a handle on sometimes.

 

[Red Memories]

I was going to edit to the earlier post to add this, but I may as well just put it in a new post.

For as long as I've been in this forum, the TPs and FPs here (not all, but enough for it to be a thing) have been paying relentless lip service to how 'pure' (or whatever) their logic is compared to their J counterparts, going on and on about how Js get their values/ideas from the 'group'. It's been stunning at times - because all it would take is shifting focus from Je/Ji to Pe/Pi to say the opposite is true (that Ps are primarily externally focused and rely more on 'group think' as their starting point). One of the most counterproductive things about this 'Fe is more focused on the space between, Fi is focused on the space within oneself' notion is that people who are FJs identify as something else because they genuinely can't relate to being so other-focused (and rightfully so, because they're not). What's true is that EFPs and EFJs have more attention directed towards the space 'between people ' than IFJs or IFPs, regardless of Fe/Fi. Until this is reflected in F type discussions, FJs will continue to either mistake their own type or they'll know they're FJ but they'll secretly judge exaggerated Fi aggrandizement as annoying turd-like behavior. (Or they'll vacillate between the two).

And it's worth adding: just because a person inherently has more of their attention directed at the space between people, that isn't to say they are less genuinely aware of their own feelings/emotions/values than any given introvert or that their feelings/emotions/values are dictated by 'the group'. The saying that extraverts are like more immediately competent versions of their introverted brethren rings true to me; there seems to be less overall distraction or emotional 'white noise' that surfaces as a result of interaction with the external world, like they aren't quite as bogged down processing incoming information. (And that 'extra work' *doesn't* necessarily result in more self-understanding, sometimes it actually takes an introvert further from genuine self-understanding).

I agree with this. I felt like on a surface level many Fe descriptions leave one thinking they require group think. As an FP I can say truthfully even that often what will make me introspect on something I have or do is someone bringing in opposite feedback. I'll then go in my corner and reflect and decide what I really think, although in the moment I may be fighting equally as hard to say my inner thoughts are the correct thoughts. Hence I tried to take the focus off that. The reality is both types have strong value systems, however they got them, and how it works is how they deal with them/use them within the world as it is. I do think a lot of function discussions of Fe/Fi do focus heavily upon social room but it is because the best examples can come from those places. I do think IFJs and IFPs tend to be more wrapped into their heads than the people part, from both dissecting the world and idealization. That is why sometimes I still struggle with E vs. I, because I can seem extraverted but I often feel wrapped in my own head and idealism rather than really people focused.

 

[Red Memories]

Wonderful thread....and I keep thinking fi vs fe is the thread that will never die LOL
I, too, get so confused about this. In my case, I use both fi and fe so relatively close to one another that I fin myself agreeing to bits of each description.
I consider myself to be more of an Fe user, though people have told me that surely I am more fi than fe...but, reading all the above comments, I can very much see myself leaning more toward fe, while also understanding a lot of fi.
The whole fi not getting along with fe also makes a lot of sense. It explains why I struggle so much (in my own head, anyway) to understand why some of my closest relatives do what they do (and the word "selfish" comes to mind each and every time). I love them all, but I just don't get some of their choices, because htey do not consider how others might be affected by those choices....
Anyway, interesting.

so I feel like, someone did mention socionics, and I think to a degree a smidge of the theory can feel very beneficial here.

In socionics, it is suggested if your dominant function is the I/E function, the opposite I/E function can be used equally in strength, you just seem to repress it or not use it. In this case if you are Fe dominant, you can use Fi just as well. If you are Fi dominant, you can use Fe just as well. I think it may just be a true theory, that whatever your dominant is, you can also tap into the other one similarly well. Not the exact strength and value, but tap into features. I am the opposite a bit. Most of my time here people have told me I am surely more Fe than Fi, although the more I study, the more I firmly believe I am an Fi user. I do think I can tap into Fe during group discussions and such, but there are also times my Fe gets tossed out the nearest window and I'm biting a head off.

 

[Red Memories]

Good discussion.

Fe is directly connected to the external emotional environment and indirectly connected to one's internal emotional environment. Fi is directly connected to the internal emotional environment and indirectly connected to the external emotional environment. One former member, a INFP describe it as Fi users believing they are a island, while, Fe users see everyone connected by pennisulas and holding hands.

A lot of the confusion is that each person has a shadow and as we grow, we can develop the opposite function, if we are willing to fight tough the pain. We are uncomfortable with the unconscious areas of ourselves and this is our shadow. But we can develop our shadow.

A ENTJ that is mostly absent from the forum today explored this with me in depth. In traditional development theory, a mature ENTJ would start acting more like a ISFP as inf. Fi developed. But the inferior is subsumed into the dominant function and just part of the dominant function. instead, a Te dom will really start developing shadow Ti. They will go from having superior talents at manipulating objects and things and rules to developing their own logic and concepts.

The aversion to our shadow explains the conflict between types. A Fi user might feel extreme external pressure where a Fe dom might not vote it the same way. One Te user I used to have very VM and PM exchanges with would suddenly stop for awhile, citing headaches from dealing with Ti.

As a Fe dom, I feel the emotional level of a room as soon as I walk in. I measure emotional levels of individuals without effort. I interact with strangers as if I have known them for decades. People regularly say, "How do you understand me so well?"

At the same time, connecting to my internal emotional environment is painful. I don't have the depth of exploration that a INFP has. I have endeavored to sit and explore and listen the internal emotional space, but I often need to take a break.

So, can I harmonize with others well, be a good team mate or persuade them? Yes. Do I have strong personal values and can't be forced to change? Yes. But the best salesmen I know are ESTPs, who use tert Fe as a tool and don't get bothered by harmony or consequences.

FPs can be outwardly focused and work for the good of others, but only if it aligns with their desires, goals, ideals, etc. Otherwise, no. It is an inwardly directed path.

Also, most Fe descriptions are SFJ related. I know many SFJs. I love them and they are great people. But they are different than NFJs.

Likewise, SFPs are very different from NFPs, which makes it confusing.

A ENFP and ENFJ will likely assess a situation very differently, but arrive at the same destination. The is a reason most caregivers are SFs. They take care of others for very different reasons, but they do it.

Yes, the enneagram plays a huge role. One is based upon how we process information and make decisions while the other relates to life experience, especially childhood.

In any event, we use our Je function to communicate. A Fi dom will likely struggle to explain the depth of feelings they have, so often in the spoken word will express things poorly or contrary to feelings, as they use inf. Te. Words are inadequate to convey the depth of feeling of a Fi dom.

As an Fi user I can relate to that. I feel like every time I try to put words to any intense feelings I have, I end up doing so...poorly with it. XD I also agree, as mentioned above, about shadow development. Tapping into functions you struggle to use can be difficult. Opposing dominants moreso. I struggle with Dom Fe types a lot, although I tend to exhibit some Fe qualities. I can handle talking to them, but I can also relate to a Te user stepping away because they can't handle using Ti very well. I get drained from interactions with Fe doms at times.

And as to the ESTP thing, this is why where something is in the stack can be so beneficial to understand. Where it is can suggest how it is used. Here I kept to the focus of dominance, but I appreciate seeing some added input on utilization in different areas of the stack.

 

[Red Memories]

This has been a terrific thread!
As an INFP, I guess, the short answer is I use Fe in service of Fi. I read the room, I feel the emotions, but it's all for selfish reasons (harmony/peace).

I don't have too much of a hard time voicing my emotions. When I stumble, in text, I use "... ???" to explain I'm having a hard time finding the right word. I'll do that for anything though, not just emotions and emotional states lol.
Now, asking me to EXPRESS said emotions is an entirely different matter. Expressing emotions leads to dis-harmony in others which disrupts my own. I could TELL you, "I'm so sad I could drink a bottle of bleach." but my expression will be neutral or I'll laugh and smile while saying it.

Lots and lots of food for thought here...

**EDIT**
Oh crud. Am I mistaking Fe for Ne?
I always say I feel the room by intuiting what others are thinking etc. And because I'm HSP, I really do FEEL the room (though not nearly to the extent others do- I don't get a stomachache if I see someone doubled over, for instance).
Back to the drawing board rofl

Maybe I need to make a thread on Ne vs. Ni next. the jazzy typology functions series. XD I am also a very sensitive person, but I can say honestly, I do not feel auras of a room. That is something I always struggled with in Fe descriptions. They say how Fe can pick up emotions in a room, or pick up the emotions of someone talking to them very easily. No, unless you start crying in front of me I likely will fall for your fake smile to be completely honest. I can be very oblivious to the emotions of another person. I don't begin to dissect changes like that until I am good friends with someone. Then I recognize their normal behavior, and when they divert from it, I ask what is on their minds because they haven't been themselves lately. Someone may want to add input on if this is an Fe vs. Fi difference. I always felt this action in me was tapping into my lower Si or something. XD

 

[Red Memories]

I do seek input when making decisions, gotta suss out which way the wind blows...

(Why do I score so high with Fi anyway?)

see this can be complicated. I, too, will look for outer input on decisions. However, this can be correlated to things that are not Fe.

- Ne likes to expose its inner thought process and hear external feedback for ideas. Ne is not foreign to seeking someone else's view.
- Enneagram 6 (phobic) tends to seek others input.
- Enneagram 9 may also seek input for the sake of harmony
- Enneagram 3 may put an idea out for input so someone can speak well of it

I do not necessarily feel this is strictly an Fe usage. It can appear like Fe, but really, it is a difficulty in trusting your own decision process for whatever reason, or wanting to bond with someone over something process even. It isn't so strictly related to Fe.