How to describe an NJ ?

[edcoaching]

They all tend to be Hitler-esque?!?!

I kid, I kid.

I like "Rottweiler effect" better than head of the Nazi party, but every so often that facade of nicety slips and we reveal our deadset mindset...

 

[cloakofsnow]

How do the Intuition and Judging work together? What can we say that describes the personality of all four NJs?

Well, there's an introverted flavour to their Intuition. According to Carl Jung, all introverted functions have a "timeless" quality to them because they go under the surface of the everchanging conditions of the external world (e.g. changing societies, culture, fashions, manners, values...) in an attempt to find the eternal and universal natures of things.

So if Si wants to find consistency and permanence in the sensate realm (which is why they like structures and traditions), Ni wants to find the eternals and universals in the intuitive realm. This is why there's often a "mystical", "otherworldly" quality to Ni types. I often imagine Merlin, or Lao Tzu or some other eastern mystic when I think of the extreme Ni type.

In fact, I'd imagine that Ni types were probably a lot more common in the ancient eastern world -- or the ancient world in general -- than they are here in the modern west where the heavily Se and Te culture stifles full expression and development of Ni.

 

[Atomic Fiend]

Deep, concentrated visions, as opposed to broad array of visions (thinking of NPs)?

Yes.

In a seminar on type and innovation, one of my ENFJ colleagues said, "That tenacity to see it through and even become fanatical...I call it the Rottweiler effect."

The facilitator quipped, "We prefer to term it 'doggedness.'"

INFJs and INTJs have the same dominant functions and can often operate like twin sons of different mothers if they have a common cause. The INFJ tends to be a bit more "Trust me, it'll work" and if there's mutual respect benefits greatly from the INTJ's ability to think through flaws in advance or guess what questions others will ask. The INTJ benefits from the INFJ's insights into how to get buy-in from everyone for their plans.

ENTJs and ENFJs have opposite dominant functions and naturally gravitate toward leadership so yes, they may fail to find common ground. If they agree on goals, though, just fall in step. they'll combine forces to strategically organize the heck out of whatever they're trying to do.

• Judging and Perceiving actually refer to one's preference in interacting with the external world, with Judging types preferring to come to Judgment or closure, and Perceiving types preferring to stay open.
• However, within the 4 NJ types, the two Introverted types are actually dominant Perceiving types. Their preference for staying open resides in their internal world, so they may show a more decisive lifestyle to the external world but still prefer openness. It can actually be quite the source of inner conflict
• Because Intuition is about creativity and novelty, most N's dislike externally imposed structures. This includes NJs. Speaking for the INJs, we never look at our job descriptions, frequently go off plan when new ideas catch our interest, think through contingencies so we can be spontaneous, and march to the tune of their own drummer. Actually a lot of our routines allow for spontaneity in areas that really count for us.
• Openness and closure are very different from predictability vs. whimsicality.

Most of the important things you need to know.

 

[The Ü™]

• Because Intuition is about creativity and novelty, most N's dislike externally imposed structures. This includes NJs. Speaking for the INJs, we never look at our job descriptions, frequently go off plan when new ideas catch our interest, think through contingencies so we can be spontaneous, and march to the tune of their own drummer. Actually a lot of our routines allow for spontaneity in areas that really count for us.

Okay, this I could definitely relate to. (Sorry for sounding condescending with the "Do some research" thing.)

Now that I think of it, my routines do kind of allow for spontaneity. Imposed structures, however, assault me, although sometimes I feel I need a schedule to follow to get myself under control.

With INTJs, I think that Te structures the environment a certain way so that Ni could flourish -- for example, a lot of writers need their writing space to be a certain familiar way in order not to disturb their internal creative processing of their primary function. This is what I mean by needing to have a certain structure and routine; harmonizing the external world so that there are no disruptions to the internal creative process.

 

[Brendan]

We're rather stubborn.

 

[edcoaching]

Okay, this I could definitely relate to. (Sorry for sounding condescending with the "Do some research" thing.)

Apology accepted. I tried not to take the bait beyond sighing...

Now that I think of it, my routines do kind of allow for spontaneity. Imposed structures, however, assault me, although sometimes I feel I need a schedule to follow to get myself under control.

Having worked in a truly externally structured environment straight out of high school (file clerking) and college (bank examiner for the Fed) the difference to me between someone else's structure and my own is striking...

With INTJs, I think that Te structures the environment a certain way so that Ni could flourish -- for example, a lot of writers need their writing space to be a certain familiar way in order not to disturb their internal creative processing of their primary function. This is what I mean by needing to have a certain structure and routine; harmonizing the external world so that there are no disruptions to the internal creative process.

If you interrupt me when I'm writing, and actually being productive, you may experience the wrath of Achilles. I tend to head to remote locations where I can completely structure my own time and get lost in thought for as long as my stomach doesn't start growling. But I still set my alarm, do "prep" reading with a cup of coffee, get in a workout, and then start writing.

 

[Brendan]

They are organised but they don't like routine.

Precisely.

I think Aladdin described it best.

GREAT COSMIC POWER!teensy tiny living space.

Uh, that was Genie. And the line was:

PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER!
Itty bitty living space.

But yes. Exactly

Not to say that everyone else can't have great cosmic power, but the point is that it's compressed to the size of the head of a pin.

well actually to the size of a 3 pound brain, but point understood lolz.

Js prefer their lives to be controlled and predictable,

No I don't.

They all tend to be Hitler-esque?!?!

I kid, I kid.

Well actually, social stigma aside... yeah, kinda.

All NJs are insane

Yep.

Also we're the easiest to annoy and the hardest to piss off. Forget T-F differences, we have ideas of what really matters, and the only way to genuinely get an NJ angry is to get in the way of that idea. Whether it be based on people or concepts.

Yeah. That's actually a good way of putting it. Kudos!
And the thing that really gets my blood boiling is not so much when someone gets in the way of my ideas, but does it intentionally, and for the sake of itself.

Well, there's an introverted flavour to their Intuition. According to Carl Jung, all introverted functions have a "timeless" quality to them because they go under the surface of the everchanging conditions of the external world (e.g. changing societies, culture, fashions, manners, values...) in an attempt to find the eternal and universal natures of things.

So if Si wants to find consistency and permanence in the sensate realm (which is why they like structures and traditions), Ni wants to find the eternals and universals in the intuitive realm. This is why there's often a "mystical", "otherworldly" quality to Ni types. I often imagine Merlin, or Lao Tzu or some other eastern mystic when I think of the extreme Ni type.

In fact, I'd imagine that Ni types were probably a lot more common in the ancient eastern world -- or the ancient world in general -- than they are here in the modern west where the heavily Se and Te culture stifles full expression and development of Ni.

Yes! Wonderful!

 

[Cimarron]

Thank you, everybody!

Well, there's an introverted flavour to their Intuition. According to Carl Jung, all introverted functions have a "timeless" quality to them because they go under the surface of the everchanging conditions of the external world (e.g. changing societies, culture, fashions, manners, values...) in an attempt to find the eternal and universal natures of things.

So if Si wants to find consistency and permanence in the sensate realm (which is why they like structures and traditions), Ni wants to find the eternals and universals in the intuitive realm. This is why there's often a "mystical", "otherworldly" quality to Ni types. I often imagine Merlin, or Lao Tzu or some other eastern mystic when I think of the extreme Ni type.

In fact, I'd imagine that Ni types were probably a lot more common in the ancient eastern world -- or the ancient world in general -- than they are here in the modern west where the heavily Se and Te culture stifles full expression and development of Ni.

Does Jung write about the 8 Cognitive Processes in any detail? I've seen a lot of books that give detailed explanations for the Four Letters, or for all Sixteen Types, but not as much for those 8 functions. Jung should probably be the place to look...

 

[edcoaching]

Thank you, everybody! Does Jung write about the 8 Cognitive Processes in any detail? I've seen a lot of books that give detailed explanations for the Four Letters, or for all Sixteen Types, but not as much for those 8 functions. Jung should probably be the place to look...

Just remember that Jung wrote from a clinical perspective, using type to tailor therapy. His descriptions show bias in some places...

 

[spirilis]

Thank you, everybody! Does Jung write about the 8 Cognitive Processes in any detail? I've seen a lot of books that give detailed explanations for the Four Letters, or for all Sixteen Types, but not as much for those 8 functions. Jung should probably be the place to look...

Jung's book "Psychological Types" more or less scripted out the 8 cognitive processes, in what detail you could expect (from a German-English translation)...

Here's the link I remember: Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10

 

["?"]

Persistence over goals works for me. All 4 also have "chart the course" working styles...

Actually 2 (INJs) have "Chart the Course" and 2 (ENJs) have "In Charge" interaction styles.

I do like Berens take on the NJ being similar to the SP in that when Ni is combined with Te/Fe and Ti/Fi are combined with Se, you get similar results from the types. Some differences are NJs want to understand something completely and feel a need for competency before moving ahead or taking action whereas SPs will be more apt to quickly grasp the essence of something and take action, gaining competence as they go. Granted this will be more commonly used with NTJs and STPs, but I see Ni giving both NFJs the ability to be more conceptual than NFP types.

 

[Frank]

Actually 2 (INJs) have "Chart the Course" and 2 (ENJs) have "In Charge" interaction styles.

I do like Berens take on the NJ being similar to the SP in that when Ni is combined with Te/Fe and Ti/Fi are combined with Se, you get similar results from the types. Some differences are NJs want to understand something completely and feel a need for competency before moving ahead or taking action whereas SPs will be more apt to quickly grasp the essence of something and take action, gaining competence as they go. Granted this will be more commonly used with NTJs and STPs, but I see Ni giving both NFJs the ability to be more conceptual than NFP types.

I agree but I also think NTJs reach a point where they learn competency also comes from taking action. Often i have found that Ni will allow me to grasp the essence and move forward like you have described. Theory ,after all ,can best work itself out or be proven in the real world.

 

[INTJMom]

Structure and predictability...ugh. That's SJ. Instead NJ's want to be able to control their destinies. Work in an environment that is malleable enough that they can bring their vision to fruition.

In a seminar on type and innovation, one of my ENFJ colleagues said, "That tenacity to see it through and even become fanatical...I call it the Rottweiler effect."

The facilitator quipped, "We prefer to term it 'doggedness.'"

tee-hee
I have been noted as having "bulldog tenacity".

 

[INTJMom]

...
According to Carl Jung, all introverted functions have a "timeless" quality to them because they go under the surface of the everchanging conditions of the external world (e.g. changing societies, culture, fashions, manners, values...) in an attempt to find the eternal and universal natures of things.
...

Yes!
That is exactly how I feel about the information that my Ni takes in and remembers!

 

[Eileen]

Something that I've noticed as a contrast between INPs and INJs is that INJs are better at succinctly expressing (usually in writing) a coherent argument or vision. This is not to say that INPs LACK coherent arguments or visions--they just seem to have more trouble focusing on only what is important.

 

["?"]

I agree but I also think NTJs reach a point where they learn competency also comes from taking action. Often i have found that Ni will allow me to grasp the essence and move forward like you have described. Theory ,after all ,can best work itself out or be proven in the real world.

Which is what distinguishes NTJs from NTPs. Over the years my discussions on the INTPc and ENTP.ORG forums has shown that NTPs are okay with learning for it's own sake, whereas like STPs NTJs must be able to apply what they learn to real life circumstances. I think the difference between STP and NTJ is the immediate need for impact vs a need for closure. Said a different way per Keirsey, STPs strive on tactical intellect whereas NTJs honor strategic intellect.

 

["?"]

Something that I've noticed as a contrast between INPs and INJs is that INJs are better at succinctly expressing (usually in writing) a coherent argument or vision. This is not to say that INPs LACK coherent arguments or visions--they just seem to have more trouble focusing on only what is important.

This is what one site says about INTPs and INTJs when it comes to writing styles:

INTP's are generally uninterested in writing until something captures their curiosity. Once they become involved, INTP's can get so engrossed that they lose touch with the rest of the world. Schools and workplaces are often not hospitable to these iconoclasts; if they aren't careful, INTP's may become quietly cynical. With their powerful ability to focus on a task, most INTP's do their best writing when working alone. If forced to perform in a group tasks they prefer to do alone, such as writing , INTP's may limit their contributions or withdraw entirely.

Below are some of the advantages and challenges INTP's face when writing:

Strengths

At their best, incisive, original writers who cut to the chase.
Can find flaws in others’ arguments and correct concisely in writing.
Excellent at investigative research.
Present information in an original format.
Excellent self-starters when engaged. When not challenged, may resort to an overly academic style.

Challenges

May be too dry for the audience or ignore others’ feelings.
May not find a "hook" for the audience.
May be ineffective with canned formats.
Non-starters when not engaged.

INTJ's are pragmatic theoreticians who like to develop plans, designs, or theories that work in the real world—in fact they are often more interested in designing a writing project than in writing it. They often incorporate design elements, such as flow charts, diagrams, and schematic drawings in writing. As a result, their writing is the most clearly and consistently organized of all MBTI types. For INTJ's, the idea is the most important part of the message—they don’t need to "entertain" the audience.

Below are some of the advantages and challenges INTJ's face when writing:

Strengths

Plan extensively.
Like to complete writing projects quickly—never miss deadlines.
Original thinkers with neat, orderly minds.
Often have good ideas which they present in a clear, organized manner.

Challenges

May be too locked into the plan.
Concern with speed may lead to skimpy research.
Need more spontaneity.
Need more audience focus—soften harsh statements or qualify assertions.

 

[Haphazard]

Concern with speed may lead to skimpy research.
Need more audience focus—soften harsh statements or qualify assertions.

And this is why my teachers hate me.

 

["?"]

For good measure, I have to throw in my own type:

Their Introversion give ISTPs an appearance of being cool on-lookers who are seemingly detached. However, as writers they work with an intense involvement with projects and prefer to work alone. Their Sensing preference leads them to enjoy practical activities and solving intricate problems—in fact, they may love the rush of adrenaline when thoroughly engrossed. The Thinking preference lets them apply clear logic to situations, which, taken with their ability to absorb seeming endless details, makes them excellent safety writers. As Perceivers, ISTPs are comfortable with incorporating new information as it arises.

Below are some of the advantages and challenges ISTP's face when writing:

Strengths

Often write quickly once they have facts at hand.

Thorough researchers; will exhaustively study any problem.

Handle large amount of facts easily and can explore implications of their findings.

With their practical natures, ensure that the facts are always right.

Excellent at biting humor or satire. Would make terrific comedy writers or op-ed contributors.

Challenges

Tend to ramble and may have many more facts than needed but include them anyway.

Wait until the last minute to begin then may have to postpone deadlines.

Become so mired in facts, they may ignore the big picture.

Focus on details so much that they are likely to ignore the reader.

Have to be careful, especially in e-mail, where irony is often seen by the reader as sarcasm.