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[MBTI General] ...Is this "J-ness"?

cacaia

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Hi, all you forum Js!
So, I am wondering this about myself....I'm not sure whether I am P or J, and this question might (or might not) help me figure things out a bit more.:D
I am disorganized...to a certain extent. But I absolutely HATE seeing clothes, paper, etc on the floor, and the sink piled up with dishes.
My husband is DEFINITELY a P. He doesn't mind living in a pigsty. He can never find his things, and when he gets things for a project, he rarely puts them back where they belong.
I can never find my things either, but I have a system (I leave things in a certain spot, and if it's not in that certain spot, I freak out).
But back to the dishes for a minute. My husband is in charge of the dishes. I gently nudge him to load the dishwasher, and to clear the table after diner. He walks away from the table, leaving everything there, claiming he needs a little break. This drives me nuts.
He also leaves a mountain of dishes all over the sink, and I nudge and nudge, then I beg, then I downright nag him about cleaning the damn dishes until it drives HIM crazy.
If I ask or tell my kids or husband to do chores, and if they ignore me, it makes me livid. I never thought of this as J- ness before, and maybe it isn't? Not sure.
One thing I just realized, though. If I can't somehow control the outcome of something, it makes me depressed or angry....so.
Are these J traits????? or does this have nothing to do with MBTI?
Thanks in advance!
 

cascadeco

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Hi, all you forum Js!
So, I am wondering this about myself....I'm not sure whether I am P or J, and this question might (or might not) help me figure things out a bit more.:D
I am disorganized...to a certain extent. But I absolutely HATE seeing clothes, paper, etc on the floor, and the sink piled up with dishes.
My husband is DEFINITELY a P. He doesn't mind living in a pigsty. He can never find his things, and when he gets things for a project, he rarely puts them back where they belong.
I can never find my things either, but I have a system (I leave things in a certain spot, and if it's not in that certain spot, I freak out).
But back to the dishes for a minute. My husband is in charge of the dishes. I gently nudge him to load the dishwasher, and to clear the table after diner. He walks away from the table, leaving everything there, claiming he needs a little break. This drives me nuts.
He also leaves a mountain of dishes all over the sink, and I nudge and nudge, then I beg, then I downright nag him about cleaning the damn dishes until it drives HIM crazy.
If I ask or tell my kids or husband to do chores, and if they ignore me, it makes me livid. I never thought of this as J- ness before, and maybe it isn't? Not sure.
One thing I just realized, though. If I can't somehow control the outcome of something, it makes me depressed or angry....so.
Are these J traits????? or does this have nothing to do with MBTI?
Thanks in advance!

I mean...stereotypically I do think it aligns with J tendencies (I identify more as J than P). However there are obviously P's who find cleanliness/organization important, so will put forth effort to do that.

I would say beyond the dishes thing, your statement of 'if I can't control the outcome......' is FAR more J-like. (J is more comfortable with a defined route/outcome, knowing what's going on, things being more clear, and P is more comfortable crafting something as they go and the process itself being what is illuminating). That's more cognition vs behavior. Behavior can get a little gray when it comes to mbti - though like I said, the trend will be that J's will be more interested and attuned to caring about that stuff.

Your husband clearly doesn't care/prioritize.

It might be a losing battle, as in, if he truly doesn't care, he's never going to naturally do it. I lived with my brother for a time, who is also definitely P, and I knew going into it that I found cleanliness/dishes/things like that more important than he did. As such, I struck a bargain early on with him, just basically acknowledging that I understood this difference (meaning: if he lived on his own, he'd do it when he felt like it), and since it mattered more to me I'd do the dishes most of the time, but that when I didn't feel like doing it, and told him point-blank it was his turn, that I expected him to do it. And he was fine with this bargain. I'd say I asked him to do it once a week, on average. (Edit: this paragraph is just a musing/aside - I don't mean to come across rudely or as if I'm trying to give advice - it just reminded me of my past experience).
 

cacaia

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I mean...stereotypically I do think it aligns with J tendencies (I identify more as J than P). However there are obviously P's who find cleanliness/organization important, so will put forth effort to do that.

I would say beyond the dishes thing, your statement of 'if I can't control the outcome......' is FAR more J-like. (J is more comfortable with a defined route/outcome, knowing what's going on, things being more clear, and P is more comfortable crafting something as they go and the process itself being what is illuminating). That's more cognition vs behavior. Behavior can get a little gray when it comes to mbti - though like I said, the trend will be that J's will be more interested and attuned to caring about that stuff.

Your husband clearly doesn't care/prioritize.

It might be a losing battle, as in, if he truly doesn't care, he's never going to naturally do it. I lived with my brother for a time, who is also definitely P, and I knew going into it that I found cleanliness/dishes/things like that more important than he did. As such, I struck a bargain early on with him, just basically acknowledging that I understood this difference (meaning: if he lived on his own, he'd do it when he felt like it), and since it mattered more to me I'd do the dishes most of the time, but that when I didn't feel like doing it, and told him point-blank it was his turn, that I expected him to do it. And he was fine with this bargain. I'd say I asked him to do it once a week, on average. (Edit: this paragraph is just a musing/aside - I don't mean to come across rudely or as if I'm trying to give advice - it just reminded me of my past experience).
Not rude at all.. I would do the same in your place :D
Thanks- I will try this resolution- I always kick myself when I lose it with him, because now I know he won't do the dishes out of spite LOL too bad, because he has a very precise way of putting the dishes into the machine- now he's going to have to deal with my putting plates wherever just so it can be done faster (Ire- I cram things in there, and he, out of logic but also respect for the actual machine, places things as they were designed to fit). Lol, we're hilarious together!
 

Poki

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Hi, all you forum Js! So, I am wondering this about myself....I'm not sure whether I am P or J, and this question might (or might not) help me figure things out a bit more.:D I am disorganized...to a certain extent. But I absolutely HATE seeing clothes, paper, etc on the floor, and the sink piled up with dishes. My husband is DEFINITELY a P. He doesn't mind living in a pigsty. He can never find his things, and when he gets things for a project, he rarely puts them back where they belong. I can never find my things either, but I have a system (I leave things in a certain spot, and if it's not in that certain spot, I freak out). But back to the dishes for a minute. My husband is in charge of the dishes. I gently nudge him to load the dishwasher, and to clear the table after diner. He walks away from the table, leaving everything there, claiming he needs a little break. This drives me nuts. He also leaves a mountain of dishes all over the sink, and I nudge and nudge, then I beg, then I downright nag him about cleaning the damn dishes until it drives HIM crazy. If I ask or tell my kids or husband to do chores, and if they ignore me, it makes me livid. I never thought of this as J- ness before, and maybe it isn't? Not sure. One thing I just realized, though. If I can't somehow control the outcome of something, it makes me depressed or angry....so. Are these J traits????? or does this have nothing to do with MBTI? Thanks in advance!
Or OCD/unhappy INTP...so either J or INTP

If you think they are too lazy its J, if you think they are to stupid its P.
 

Polaris

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I don't think it has anything to do with potentially being a J. I'm one the messiest people I know, and yet I'm a J.
 

Turi

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Hi, all you forum Js!
So, I am wondering this about myself....I'm not sure whether I am P or J, and this question might (or might not) help me figure things out a bit more.:D
I am disorganized...to a certain extent. But I absolutely HATE seeing clothes, paper, etc on the floor, and the sink piled up with dishes.
My husband is DEFINITELY a P. He doesn't mind living in a pigsty. He can never find his things, and when he gets things for a project, he rarely puts them back where they belong.
I can never find my things either, but I have a system (I leave things in a certain spot, and if it's not in that certain spot, I freak out).
But back to the dishes for a minute. My husband is in charge of the dishes. I gently nudge him to load the dishwasher, and to clear the table after diner. He walks away from the table, leaving everything there, claiming he needs a little break. This drives me nuts.
He also leaves a mountain of dishes all over the sink, and I nudge and nudge, then I beg, then I downright nag him about cleaning the damn dishes until it drives HIM crazy.
If I ask or tell my kids or husband to do chores, and if they ignore me, it makes me livid. I never thought of this as J- ness before, and maybe it isn't? Not sure.
One thing I just realized, though. If I can't somehow control the outcome of something, it makes me depressed or angry....so.
Are these J traits????? or does this have nothing to do with MBTI?
Thanks in advance!

It's both S and J. NJs I believe are more oriented towards organizing (J) what their intuition is perceiving (N). SJs on the other hand are more oriented towards organizing (J) what their senses (S) are perceiving.

Needing to have clothes sorted out and paper sorted out etc and cleaning the dishes so they don't pile up etc is S+J all the way.
Having a little system ie certain places you put things etc is J, freaking out over this is J. But this is a system for S things, your stuff, it's J but not N.

Your husband opposes you on two fronts, both his N v your S and his P v your J so these kinds of things are bound to happen, leaving dishes everywhere etc is both N and P, it's disrespecting the sensory (S) and it's not-having-things-organised-as-a-priority (P).

With the kids it's probably just the usual business parents deal with from kids, a lot of kids don't listen for whatever reason and regardless of your MBTI preferences, that'll irritate you eventually, no matter how cool-headed you are, might take minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, but there'll come a time when it'll get to you.

Freaking out over not being able to control the outcome of things can be both S and J, S has lower N which in theory means S types aren't as comfortable with the unknown (N can be perceived as unknown, S can be perceived as known) and J types are orderly and organised etc all that so if you freak out about not being able to control the unknown, it says SJ to me in dichotomy.
Compare this to your NP husband who is probably okay with not knowing everything (N - comfortable with unknowns) and P (won't freak out if he can't control everything). Husband is probably able to keep more cool, calm and collected than you as an SJ (from this post only and in my opinion only, I realise you don't type as an N atm) and we haven't even considered T/F.

I don't think it has anything to do with potentially being a J. I'm one the messiest people I know, and yet I'm a J.

Could make sense if you're an N but you literally have to pick tidy/organised/orderly results to actually return a J in dichotomy so consider me sceptical for obvious reasons. ;)
 

cacaia

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It's both S and J. NJs I believe are more oriented towards organizing (J) what their intuition is perceiving (N). SJs on the other hand are more oriented towards organizing (J) what their senses (S) are perceiving.

Needing to have clothes sorted out and paper sorted out etc and cleaning the dishes so they don't pile up etc is S+J all the way.
Having a little system ie certain places you put things etc is J, freaking out over this is J. But this is a system for S things, your stuff, it's J but not N.

Your husband opposes you on two fronts, both his N v your S and his P v your J so these kinds of things are bound to happen, leaving dishes everywhere etc is both N and P, it's disrespecting the sensory (S) and it's not-having-things-organised-as-a-priority (P).

With the kids it's probably just the usual business parents deal with from kids, a lot of kids don't listen for whatever reason and regardless of your MBTI preferences, that'll irritate you eventually, no matter how cool-headed you are, might take minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, but there'll come a time when it'll get to you.

Freaking out over not being able to control the outcome of things can be both S and J, S has lower N which in theory means S types aren't as comfortable with the unknown (N can be perceived as unknown, S can be perceived as known) and J types are orderly and organised etc all that so if you freak out about not being able to control the unknown, it says SJ to me in dichotomy.
Compare this to your NP husband who is probably okay with not knowing everything (N - comfortable with unknowns) and P (won't freak out if he can't control everything). Husband is probably able to keep more cool, calm and collected than you as an SJ (from this post only and in my opinion only, I realise you don't type as an N atm) and we haven't even considered T/F.



Could make sense if you're an N but you literally have to pick tidy/organised/orderly results to actually return a J in dichotomy so consider me sceptical for obvious reasons. ;)

So you mean it's Se. I have inferior Se which probably is why I freak out about my husband having to do it instead of rolling up my sleeves and doing it myself???? My mom, who is an ESTJ, just tells me, "why don't you do it all, then?" And I go, "pppft". Nope. We strive to be equal he and I, even when it comes to the chores. I end up doing way more than he does, and I resent it.TBH, I'm not that keen on doing dishes either, but it's just something that needs to be done. It could be a cultural thing, too. In my culture, it's gross and disrespectful to leave dishes piled up. It does not please the gods!:happy2:
 

Polaris

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Turi said:
Could make sense if you're an N but you literally have to pick tidy/organised/orderly results to actually return a J in dichotomy so consider me sceptical for obvious reasons.
I always score J on tests, and I am, in fact, a J. I just don't organize things unless there's actually a reason to do so. There usually isn't.
 

cacaia

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I always score J on tests, and I am, in fact, a J. I just don't organize things unless there's actually a reason to do so. There usually isn't.

Ugh, the more I think about it, the more it makes me think that I just need to have some control of the indomitable. My house is organized in some rooms, and disorganized in others, and for some reason (ahem, mom's Jness rubbing on me, maybe?) the dishes are what bothers me the most.
 

Caribelle

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Sounds like J to me... J's like order and structure and closure to things., and so hate to see things looking messy, chaotic and looking like they'll never get done.
 

Caribelle

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I don't think it has anything to do with potentially being a J. I'm one the messiest people I know, and yet I'm a J.

That might have something to do with the strength of your preference (i.e J-ness) as well..
 

Turi

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So you mean it's Se. I have inferior Se which probably is why I freak out about my husband having to do it instead of rolling up my sleeves and doing it myself???? My mom, who is an ESTJ, just tells me, "why don't you do it all, then?" And I go, "pppft". Nope. We strive to be equal he and I, even when it comes to the chores. I end up doing way more than he does, and I resent it.TBH, I'm not that keen on doing dishes either, but it's just something that needs to be done. It could be a cultural thing, too. In my culture, it's gross and disrespectful to leave dishes piled up. It does not please the gods!:happy2:

Nowhere did I "mean it's Se". I know you suggest you have "inferior Se" and this is an easy way for supposed N dominants on the internet to justify their Sensation clearly being preferred above Intuition, you can do all the S stuff and just say "it's my inferior function so that's why". I don't know many N types that even notice the mess around the house yet alone feel like they're forced into actually doing something about it. I don't know what your culture is and I don't believe in "gods" so this point is lost on me.

Of course you resent doing more than he does, it's not fair, the relationship feels uneven from your perspective because you're putting all the focus into what you think is important (S) and he isn't (not an S), so he's in a sense disrespecting what you think is important (needs to be done). To him, it probably doesn't need to be done when you do it, or as often as you'd like it done etc because it's not a priority (because again, not S). He probably feels the same way, when you're trying to go all SJ on him and trying to get things done that you think is important, he's probably thinking this is disrespecting and treading on his NP preferences to some extent.

I always score J on tests, and I am, in fact, a J. I just don't organize things unless there's actually a reason to do so. There usually isn't.

Oh okay, can you please link me to a dichotomy test where I can select all of the disorderly, disorganised and untidy options and still return a "J"? I've got to see this. I'm going to be so J it'll blow your mind. Wait until you see how J I am, with my strong P preference.
 

Polaris

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From the Myers and Briggs Foundation, on Judging:
The following statements generally apply to me:
I like to have things decided.
I appear to be task oriented.
I like to make lists of things to do.
I like to get my work done before playing.
I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline.
Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information.
Nowhere in that list does it say anything about Judging types being driven to tidy their environment.
 

cascadeco

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From the Myers and Briggs Foundation, on Judging:
Nowhere in that list does it say anything about Judging types being driven to tidy their environment.

It's probably all implied, ie the 'Work before Play' statement.
-----------------------------------------------

But yeah. Speaking of my own experience, my two SJ parents were /are very keen on keeping on top of all of that, I grew up with them having a nightly ritual of dish washing and all of that. At least in previous generations, I'd say SJ would in fact be the J's who were most driven and preoccupied to keep on top of this stuff. However I have serious doubts that new generations of SJ's will hold the same values or will even necessarily pay as much attention to it. Just a theory though.

Compared to my two parents, I'm significantly messier and don't rigidly keep on top of things. Using dishes as an example, sometimes I'll allow dishes to pile up in the sink for a few days, sometimes I do them right away; it just depends. My brother otoh could live in a vat of filth and probably wouldn't care. To me it all falls on a sliding scale and this stuff can get lost in the convo --- one persons' 'organized' will fall far short from another persons' idea of that, yet the same two people may be speaking as if they are both organized and then assume the other is referring to it in the exact same way; one persons' cleanliness will fall short of another person who's obsessed with it. etc. That stuff can be lost in the shuffle in convos like this.

I'd say stereotypically it would fall SJ -> NJ -> SP -> NP as far as most keen awareness/concern of these sorts of practical things to utter obliviousness/lack of care. But, there are certainly NP's who can be quite fastidious. (Re SJ's, I'm speaking again of previous generations - I know no young SJ's at this point). There are plenty of NJ's here on the forum - I'm thinking comments I've seen of NTJ's in particular -- who can't abide messiness and want all of the house stuff kept clean, but they'll hire out other people to do these things for them. I think there's a distinction between awareness and how keyed-into doing things right away one is, too - or in what manner.

Isn't that funny, I'm writing a novel on the sliding-scale/ potential subjectiveness of dish washing and other practical matters. :laugh:
 

Turi

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From the Myers and Briggs Foundation, on Judging:
Nowhere in that list does it say anything about Judging types being driven to tidy their environment.

Let's not pretend that list has anything to do with anything and look directly at the questions you have to answer on the MBTI relating to P/J, shall we?
Because, you have to answer these to actually get that J result in the first place. I have to note - I do just love how you focused exclusively on the "tidy" aspect, and not on the disorganized or disorderly aspects I mentioned. Very curious.



So to get that J letter in your type, you've gotta love schedules, planning, being organised, be systematic and orderly (literally one of the options verbatim). No, it doesn't specify being "tidy", this slipped in because the MBTI applies an extroversion to the judging process in J types, they use it to denote Te/Fe. Which of course is intended to mean, they love to organised their external world/environment, tidiness kind of goes hand in hand one would imagine, with someone that supposedly prefers J - but this argument is invalid as this application of functions-in-attitudes is after-the-fact and therefore completely invalid and not supported by any credible research.

I think I've made my point. You have to select J options to get a J result. ;)

EDIT: For full transparency, my official MBTI results state INFJ, with J as "Very Likely" (the furthest the P/J spectrum goes in Js favour). I simply recognise that this is complete crap in hindsight and is likely due to some kind of subconscious biasing of the results, as I took the official test after I had knowledge of MBTI. I am saying this because I fell for the same "trick" essentially, I knew I was an introverted intuitive type, and for some reason despite intuition being Perceiving, in introverted types you have to choose J options to reflect a preference for introverted intuition. So it kind of gets warped when you know what your type is but you can't actually get it "right", because the MBTI is all kinds of messed up with it's after-the-fact application of functions-in-attitudes.

I've since determined that INxP is the best way to indicate preferences for someone that prefers first and foremost, introversion and intuition supported by what I've changed from Feeling to Thinking because I think it's a slightly better fit for me after mulling it all over. I think INTP is the most accurate fit for me, and I intend it to be INTP in dichotomy and to also reflect an introverted intuitive type supported with Thinking. I think some of us get kind of duped into knowing what type we are but struggling with how to properly communicate that, and this creeps into messing with results. I think you might be one of those people. To get a J result you literally have to select the J options. These are not the P options.
 

Kanra Jest

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Yeah. The fact you need that external control over things pretty much qualifies. I need control as well, but it is more internal. External is far less important.

Lol your comment reminds me it's probably like this on the outside.
 

Caribelle

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From the Myers and Briggs Foundation, on Judging: Nowhere in that list does it say anything about Judging types being driven to tidy their environment.
It's implied. You can infer from the 'task-orientedness' and 'work before play' nature etc that Js will generally be self-driven to complete their work, which might include cleaning the home, washing dishes, before relaxing, unlike Ps- who might prioritize other things before completing tasks within a certain timeline.
 

Polaris

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Turi said:
Because, you have to answer these to actually get that J result in the first place. I have to note - I do just love how you focused exclusively on the "tidy" aspect, and not on the disorganized or disorderly aspects I mentioned. Very curious.
I'm slightly at a loss to understand why you quoted those questions. Only one of them could even slightly be construed as having anything to do with messiness (orderly vs. easygoing--which, however, is more about general orderliness than whether you keep your bedroom neat). Remember that "messy" was my original self-descriptor that you responded to by questioning my Jness. "Disorganized" and "disorderly" are your words, not mine.

Caribelle said:
You can infer from the 'task-orientedness' and 'work before play' nature etc that Js will generally be self-driven to complete their work, which might include cleaning the home, washing dishes, before relaxing, unlike Ps- who might prioritize other things before completing tasks within a certain timeline.
Key word being "might." Not every J puts arranging their belongings in an orderly fashion on their list of work to complete. There are often more important things to be engaged in at a particular moment.
 
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