[MBTI General] ...Is this "J-ness"?

[Turi]

For crying out loud, people. I've lost count how many Se doms admitted being clean freaks because it is aesthetically pleasing.

People can do X for different reasons. Open your mind.

Of course anyone can do whatever for whatever reason buuuut, the MBTI doesn't test for functions-in-attitudes and therefore, "Se dom" means nothing - and to get a J in the MBTI test - which is of course, pure dichotomy, requires you to make more J decisions than P decisions. J is outlined obviously, as being organised and orderly etc and P is outlined as the opposite. Everybody can do everything sure, but fact is you need to pick the J options to get J on the MBTI test. Which again is exclusively based on dichotomy, and does not incorporate functions-in-attitudes in any way.

Anyone can sit here and just make shit up:
Fi likes cleaning because it likes cleaning.
Fe likes cleaning because it's socially acceptable to have a clean house.
Ti likes cleaning because they have determined somehow a clean house help them think or some shit.
Te likes cleaning because it likes having everything organised properly.
Si likes cleaning because lol it's tradition.
Se likes cleaning because it's, and I quote - "aesthetically pleasing".
Ni likes cleaning because it mess distracts their iNtUiTiOn.
Ne likes cleaning for the same reason as Ni.

We can all just wing this crap. Fact is, need to pick J options to get J in dichotomy, and J isn't P.

 

[Shadow Play]

People can do X for different reasons. Open your mind.

We can all just wing this crap. Fact is, need to pick J options to get J in dichotomy, and J isn't P.

Okay, so taking housecleaning as an example of "J-ness", we can think of this as a continuum rather than a binary opposite. If a dog were to shit in your kitchen, one of your immediate priorities would be to clean it up, right? That's something almost anyone can agree upon, regardless of whether they'd prefer J or P responses to the instrument. The smell and sight of it would bother anyone enough even if they normally avoided chores. What about if your kitchen just has a little dust build up? That's not a huge deal, right? It can wait until later. Well, that's something which would depend on the extent to which you prefer J responses (or on your level of Big 5 Conscientiousness). Someone who generally prefers to play first and work later, or who doesn't care much for neatness for its own sake, isn't going to feel strongly motivated to clean up a speck of dust.

 

[Jaguar]

Anyone can sit here and just make shit up

You said it.

Okay, so taking housecleaning as an example of "J-ness", we can think of this as a continuum rather than a binary opposite. If a dog were to shit in your kitchen, one of your immediate priorities would be to clean it up, right? That's something almost anyone can agree upon, regardless of whether they'd prefer J or P responses to the instrument. The smell and sight of it would bother anyone enough even if they normally avoided chores. What about if your kitchen just has a little dust build up? That's not a huge deal, right? It can wait until later. Well, that's something which would depend on the extent to which you prefer J responses (or on your level of Big 5 Conscientiousness). Someone who generally prefers to play first and work later, or who doesn't care much for neatness for its own sake, isn't going to feel strongly motivated to clean up a speck of dust.

If I had nothing more important to think about than dust in a room, I'd put a bullet through my brain. But that's me. That anyone would consider dusting "work" is bizarre in and of itself.

 

[Turi]

If I had nothing more important to think about than dust in a room, I'd put a bullet through my brain. But that's me. That anyone would consider dusting "work" is bizarre in and of itself.

As far as I'm concerned, you are the dust in the room at this point.
How is dusting not work? You have to literally get rid of it, or else it goes nowhere. Which means it requires work. Let it build up for long enough, like I would if my ESFJ wife wasn't keenly observant of this kind of thing, and you'd have to spend a couple of hours getting rid of it, if you wanted to.

Think about it - all on top of cupboards etc you never notice, if you've got fans it's all over them, it gets on the floor behind and under any kind of furniture, the list goes on and on, total removal of dust is definitely work.

 

[Jaguar]

As far as I'm concerned, you are the dust in the room at this point.

Grow the fuck up, already.

 

[Turi]

Grow the fuck up, already.

Thanks for the comment - are you able to speak to my position that dusting is indeed work or are we just doing the whole useless-insult thing that gets nowhere? You resorted to swearing which is indeed quite comical, but I'm not here for the show, I'm here to learn - so teach me, how is dusting not work?

Dusting and housework stresses me out, it irritates me to no end. I don't notice what needs to be done in the first place, my ESFJ wife does, and when she wants to get shit done well, she's a J. She wants to clean the house then and there on the spot and I just get forced into doing a bunch of things that mean nothing to me, I do it because I'm not useless, but it does suck to waste time on this kind of thing for me when I'd rather be doing anything else.

I'd love to hear the part where dusting isn't work. I have to move furniture around, stand on chairs to reach the top of fans, get up and stand on kitchen benches etc to clean the tops of cupboards, basically lie on the floor to get under things that can't be easily moved, dusting is definitely work and is a total pain in the ass. I need to hear how it's not work. It's only not work if you don't do it. I could easily just not do it, I'd rather not do it, I never notice dust etc building up, she does - but I'm also allergic to dust and really should be more proactive and vigilant in this aspect of my life anyways so I mean, it's gotta get done. It's definitely work. It can take hours to do the whole house properly.

She actually goes around dusting and cleaning every little thing, she cleans the telephone, cleans the modem, cleans everything on my desk like the PC monitor, cleans the PC itself, cleans the TV, behind the TV, cleans the little potplants she has around, lampshades, everything, she spends way too long on this shit. It's not a thing for me. I'd never even notice it. It's definitely work for me to do what I do re: cleaning dust, and it's more work for her because she actually observes the dust and feels compelled to do something about it. Dusting is definitely work. It's only not work if you don't do it or don't see it.

 

[Jaguar]

Thanks for the comment - are you able to speak to my position that dusting is indeed work or are we just doing the whole useless-insult thing that gets nowhere? You resorted to swearing which is indeed quite comical, but I'm not here for the show, I'm here to learn - so teach me, how is dusting not work?

"WHY ISN'T DUSTING WORK? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!"

Christ.

 

[Turi]

"WHY ISN'T DUSTING WORK? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!"

Christ.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Shadow Play]

Grow the fuck up, already.

Ah yes, more pithy insults from Jaguar. I hadn't even known you replied to me, since you had changed my username into a stupid pun.

 

[cacaia]

So, I said I was not going to play this silly game, but now I am wondering...Turi, since you are so sure other intuitives are actually S.....answer me this...what makes you think you are an intuitive? From your posts, I would judge you to be an ISTJ.

 

[Jaguar]

Ah yes, more pithy insults from Jaguar.

When someone starts a response to me with this type of nonsense:

As far as I'm concerned, you are the dust in the room at this point.

Yes, I will tell them to grow the fuck up. Now, why don't you and Turi get back to your scholarly debate about dusting. Better still, why not devote an entire thread to dusting? You can even outline the types of sprays and cloths to use while dusting or even discuss the feather types that flick each speck of dust into the air which may—or may not—create an aurora borealis when using Christmas lights from Kmart. Wow, think of the possibilities!

 

[Jaguar]

.

If We’re Being Honest, INTJs Are Actually Kind of Messy

Why are some INTJs so organized, and others kind of a mess? The answer goes back to all those goals we have — and our love of efficiency.

Every INTJ wants to do the most possible, as efficiently as possible. And all of us are good at the big-picture part of doing that. When it comes to little details, however, INTJs have two competing instincts:


1. Get the little stuff out of the way. This could be summed up as, “If my workspace is clean and organized, I don’t have to think about it.” Everything will be easy to find and the space will work well.

2. Don’t waste time on the little stuff. This weighs high-leverage activities against low-leverage activities. It could be summed up as, “Who cares what my desk looks like if I just cured HIV?” (Or, for my 10-year old self, “Who cares what my room looks like if I get to finish reading my book?”)


Both of these are valid ways to get things done, and both can lead to success. The tidy approach is extolled in none other than Stephen Covey’s hit, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, which emphasizes organizing your life — including your environment. On the other hand, being messy often correlates with high intelligence (along with staying up late and swearing a lot, so I guess I’m three for motherflippin’ three).

Food for thought.

 

[Turi]

So, I said I was not going to play this silly game, but now I am wondering...Turi, since you are so sure other intuitives are actually S.....answer me this...what makes you think you are an intuitive? From your posts, I would judge you to be an ISTJ.

Couldn't care less what you think and I didn't state anything remotely similar to a belief that "other intuitives are actually S" - this is a strawmen. Never took this position. What I said was exclusively confined to the information I had in this exact thread and pertaining to specific posts whereby, yes, the information suggests an S preference for this one particular individual over an N preference. In no way is this a blanket perception that I am sure other intuitives are really S or any other such nonsense - according to 16personalities most people that take the test return N results. I don't care how many of X there are etc it means nothing to me. I'm not a J following dichotomy so "boom, headshot".

.

If We’re Being Honest, INTJs Are Actually Kind of Messy

Food for thought.

For people that put any faith in internet blogs this might provide a little food for thought, I prefer my food to have at least a little nutritional value. It's a no from me.

 

[Jaguar]

It's a no from me.

Anything that differs from your personal belief system is a no for you. lol.

"boom, headshot".

"Boom, headshot"? Sounds like the lexicon of a forum troll. Wait, didn't they ban you from another forum? I forget.

 

[cacaia]

"Boom"? Headshot"? Alright, first I wasn't sure you were a kid, or maybe a kid with perhaps autism, but now for a fact I know you are a kid.Last post about this and no more. Furthermore, you are quite rude. Goodbye, then.

 

[Turi]

Anything that differs from your personal belief system is a no for you. lol.

"Boom, headshot"? Sounds like the lexicon of a forum troll. Wait, didn't they ban you from another forum? I forget.

Let's break down why the link you provided is questionable - we'll skip over the fact that it is irrelevant in the first instance because I have already redacted "tidiness" from the literal aspects that make a J type a J type because that exact and specific word is not on the official MBTI and people tend to have a very difficult time with connecting the dots between what is actual (orderliness and organisation on the official MBTI) and what is an obvious byproduct of the aforementioned characteristics (tidiness - clearly a byproduct of being organised and orderly). So the intent is questionable - you have provided a link regarding the messiness of INTJs, but why? It is surely not related to cleaning dust, that is cleanliness, which is obviously has a different meaning than tidiness (being tidy does not mean you are clean nor vica versa).

Now that the intent has been questioned - we move on. What is the website? A blog page for some introverts. Not a scientific journal or anything credible. Move on again, who is the author? The biography says they basically write about a couple of things and says nothing of any qualifications regarding MBTI, no books written about personality theory, so to me they're not exactly a credible source.

Move on again - the poll itself. It was created for a "success-minded INTJ" Facebook group - okay, so who says these INTJs in the group are INTJs? Each and every individual in that group needs to be questioned before we can actually determine that the respondents to this poll are actually INTJs in the first place. The poll asked respondents (that we can not be sure are INTJs) to select between the following options:

• I keep my spaces organized and tidy, or
• I allow untidiness and my spaces may look messy.

A quick look at what I posted earlier - which is literally taken from the official MBTI test - will clarify beyond reasonable doubt that the first option is the J option via dichotomy (pertaining to being organised) and the second option is absolutely and unequivocally pertaining to MBTIs P dichotomy - which is disorganised (as opposed to Js organised preference).

This obviously means we should question the J-ness of 46 of the 55 participants. The author provides some lazy arguments to explain why so many INTJ types would select what is obviously a P preference but this is just nonsense rationalisation to make an clear P selection via MBTI look like it's J, when it isn't.

I was permanently banned from PersonalityCafe without warning, correct, and without a valid reason - the argument was essentially that a few people didn't like me, and the administrator at the time sent me an e-mail to the effect of "I'm the boss and what I say goes" when I attempted to rebut my permanent ban (without warning) on the grounds that I was not warned of an imminent permanent ban. The administration then was extremely dubious, I understand it has since changed hands (hopefully for the better).

"Boom"? Headshot"? Alright, first I wasn't sure you were a kid, or maybe a kid with perhaps autism, but now for a fact I know you are a kid.Last post about this and no more. Furthermore, you are quite rude. Goodbye, then.

Focus on what you're able to comprehend instead of the point - nice. The fact remains that if you were to scour my post history, you will find no N elitism, no looking down on S types, no questioning of every other N type and suggesting they are S types - this instance is isolated and confined to this thread and the information found within it exclusively, which does indeed suggest a stronger preference for S over N for the OP - for which I provided my reasoning for earlier in the thread.

 

[Jaguar]

Mister "Boom, headshot" the conversations are over.

 

[Shadow Play]

Yes, I will tell them to grow the fuck up. Now, why don't you and Turi get back to your scholarly debate about dusting. Better still, why not devote an entire thread to dusting? You can even outline the types of sprays and cloths to use while dusting or even discuss the feather types that flick each speck of dust into the air which may—or may not—create an aurora borealis when using Christmas lights from Kmart. Wow, think of the possibilities!

Your problem is that you're reading too far into my point about J/P, which is simply one example instead of being a core quality or requirement. I did not intend for dusting to be a definite indicator of J/P. Personality theory is about tendencies and probabilities, not certainties. "Oh, any type can do this! Any type can be an astronaut or a famous artist, and asserting that some types are more likely to be one thing than others is just silly stereotypes!" It's not impossible for any type to be anything, but what planet are you living on if you'd believe an ESTJ is as likely to be an artist as an INFP?

Or you can go back to playing with your function toys. I mean, none of this is real anyways, so you might as well believe that the amount of phlegm or bile in your body, or the time of year you were born, can predict meaningful things about your personality. Never mind that you can't even claim the modern functions of Te, Ti, Fe, Fi, Se, Si, Fe, and Fi have validity without also believing their corresponding dichotomy pairs have validity.

Disorganised INTJs is another one of those internet memes that goes around typology forums, often spread by mistyped INPs who think being "Ni-doms" makes them a J. And before you accuse me of contradicting myself, I mean that the functions are tagged onto their dichotomy pairs so that NJs are labelled as Ni-doms. They're an appendage, not the thing which determines the dichotomy preferences.

 

[Red Memories]

To return to seriousness...

J v. P is more about how you digest things, and how you take things in.

Js want control over their environment. Hence, the stereotyping of them being clean freaks and such comes from them actually at times finding control by organizing and such. Nevertheless a J can be as messy as a P. My mother once told me, as a P, I am the most organized, well-planned directionless person she's ever met. So organization and cleanliness isn't exactly P or J. as someone else mentioned, it is more WHY you do it or see it.

Ps prefer to be a "wallflower" in a sense. They watch, listen, take in information. They tend to be viewed as mallable and etc. because they don't firmly decide or choose as easily, where a J may be quicker to form judgments.

So as you can see, it is neither P nor J to be clean and organized really. It is about how it is preferred to digest environments and decisions.

 

[Jaguar]

Two INTJs:

In my experience, INFPs are the most "typologically confused" - they test INTP one morning, then ESFJ the next.

Anyway, I've noticed that people who discover Myers Briggs often do so through a search to understand themselves. And frequently, this search is triggered by a perception that there is something abnormal about them. So that's why a lot of Myers Briggs boards tend to have high number of Ns (Ns being in the minority in the general populace, and frequently treated as an albatross by a lot of social circles), and then there are people who have mental issues who are attracted to Myers Briggs (people with mental issues also have trouble fitting in, you see). And of course, Myers Briggs is a big relief to Ns with mental issues. So I see a lot of people with mental issues using a particular type as an explanation of their abnormal mental states i.e., "I'm not schizoid bipolar, I'm just an artistic INFP, lol", or "INFJs are the rarest types, no wonder everyone in school always thought I was a mental case". Some people mistype themselves because they read some crude type-explanation and think "It says here than INTJs tend to be cantankerous assholes. Hey, I'm a cantankerous asshole. I must be an INTJ!"

And thus you get all these people causing general type confusion.

By the way, y'all need to stop with the "I'm an INFJ, and even though I'm a J, my desk is messy!!!" stuff.
A LOT of xNxJs tend to have messy desks, even though they are Js. That's because they are also Ns, and as such, often spend too much time in their head and ignore their physical surroundings, resulting in general disarray. It's not some mystery INFJ-specific trait.

I'll tell you what, imma measure your skill at analysis by what analysis you've done. That comment about the messy desk? It comes at the end of a series of posts complaining that no one demonstrates the validity of their type assertions by connecting supposed behavior to what can rightly come from cognition. In short, they were proving at the level of "does he have a messy desk?" Or, "did he plan his escape?" Or "does he have ideals?" Or "did he wait a long time?" These macro behaviors and states can be demonstrated by anyone. But what of the motherfucker's stated imperatives? How often do different types sound the same in matters of importance to themselves? Do they refer to the same kinds of perceptions? Do they demonstrate adherence to the same kinds of judgement? Which terms do they put out there first for you to see? Y'know, typology questions.

Someone's head would have to go through a windshield in order to think Edgar or Kalach is INP.