[MBTI General] ...Is this "J-ness"?

[Turi]

I'm slightly at a loss to understand why you quoted those questions. Only one of them could even slightly be construed as having anything to do with messiness (orderly vs. easygoing--which, however, is more about general orderliness than whether you keep your bedroom neat). Remember that "messy" was my original self-descriptor that you responded to by questioning my Jness. "Disorganized" and "disorderly" are your words, not mine.

Key word being "might." Not every J puts arranging their belongings in an orderly fashion on their list of work to complete. There are often more important things to be engaged in at a particular moment.

Ah, you create your own definitions of words so you can get whatever result you want. Nice.
Fact remains, to get J, you gotta pick J options.

 

[Polaris]

Ah, you create your own definitions of words so you can get whatever result you want. Nice.

That isn't correct. Between easygoing and orderly, I'm overall quite orderly--just not when it comes to keeping my belongings tidy.

 

[Non_xsense]

Ah, you create your own definitions of words so you can get whatever result you want. Nice.
Fact remains, to get J, you gotta pick J options.

Can we actually abstract from ourself and watch us from a objective perspective?

pd: i clean my room once per week.

 

[Turi]

That isn't correct. Between easygoing and orderly, I'm overall quite orderly--just not when it comes to keeping my belongings tidy.

If you say so - I also notice you type as INFp Ni in Socionics - why the P in Socionics (obviously, for perceiving).. but the J in dichotomy? (Which you know, you have to pick the J responses to get).
I see the same thing. I fell for the same little trick.

INFp in Socionics is absolutely nothing like the MBTI INFJ. The Ni in Socionics directly contradicts the MBTI J dichotomy in a bout a trillion different ways - here's a little snippet of the IEI-Ni subtype from Sociotypes.com that directly opposes a J preference:

Dislikes routine, monotony, stereotypes, conventionality, strict order, having to follow rules and regulations.

To actually return an IEI-Ni result you have to make very different choices to the ones you have to make to get J in dichotomy. If the glove don't fit..

But, I get it - trust me, for probably two years I denied the INTP typing by dichotomy, on the basis that I know I'm an introverted intuitive type, which sounds absolutely insane, but because MBTI turns INTP into Ti-Ne, I couldn't get on board with that, I know I'm not a "Ti" dominant type, I'd pick J if I was a T type after all, really. This knowledge that I am an "Ni" type affected my reasoning and crept subconsciously into influencing certain results to start returning not just a J result, but literally a "Very Strong" J result on the official MBTI test online - this is such complete crap, and it comes from the fact that I know I'm an "Ni" type and was obviously, without intending to, seeking to return a J result because that's what indicates an "Ni" type, which I already know is accurate.

But this is flawed. The function stacks are applied after the fact, they're not tested for in any way whatsoever in the MBTI, they've got no credibility at all. Getting a J in dichotomy in no way that makes any sense means a person is a dominant perceiving type, it's just total nonsense. Eventually I determined that I'm correct and this bullshit forced IEIE/EIEI thing is well, bullshit, and I feel comfortable accepting that INxP is accurate, and INxP reflects a person that is dominated by Introversion, Intuition and Perceiving. This makes sense with my Socionics type (ILI-Ni) and I'm no longer struggling to make sense of how things don't add up. When things don't add up, our brains do all kinds of weird shit to make it add up. But it doesn't.
I'm still kinda torn between F and T to be honest, I think I'm more T than F but eh. I don't really care about this bit much.

I'm just saying - I get what's going on, I've been through it already, the fact of the matter is INFJ does not equal Ni dominant and it doesn't make any sense to be a J in MBTI and also Ni or INFp in Socionics because you have to literally make the opposite choice in questions that are very much the same. If there's one single thing the IEI-Ni isn't, it's an MBTI J.

 

[Polaris]

Actually, I'm quite possibly an EIE in Socionics. That being said, we have already had a discussion about the consistency of my self-typings. I have my opinion; you have yours.

 

[Polaris]

As an aside, it should be noted that I pay little attention to the generic profiles written for the different types. I go by dichotomies, cognitive functions, and the like, which are less prone to be astrology-esque in their description.

 

[Turi]

As an aside, it should be noted that I pay little attention to the generic profiles written for the different types. I go by dichotomies, cognitive functions, and the like, which are less prone to be astrology-esque in their description.

How do you reconcile MBTI J, as we've already gone over - with Socionics "Ni" state of mind: "a dreamy, mysterious, wistful, melancholic, or reflective state of inner discovery and searching; reflecting upon the future or the past".
It's basically the opposite of being orderly and organised, following schedules etc and is instead spending time reflecting internally. This screams everything but MBTI J.

There is a potential argument here that perhaps the Ni type "organises" their mind or intuitions - but this is nonsense, what part of "mysterious" sounds like "planning, scheduling, organising and orderly", what part of "dreamy" fits it? It's uh, not a match.

From the Wikisocion description of "Ni":

As a base function, Ni generally manifests itself through a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself, and a sense of detachment or freedom from worldly affairs. This can lead to a highly developed imagination and very unique mental world, but it can also result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity.

So Ni manifests as a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself and is detached from worldy affairs - but J is literally about being orderly and organised? It notes that the Ni types mental world can result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity - but MBTI J is about being organised and orderly, planning things, scheduling things, it's the exact opposite of being lazy.

It doesn't work. You'll understand eventually, hopefully.

 

[cacaia]

Yeah. The fact you need that external control over things pretty much qualifies. I need control as well, but it is more internal. External is far less important. Lol your comment reminds me it's probably like this on the outside.

Lol!
Now, I must admit, if it wasn't stereotypical for women to clean, then it probably would not be that problematic for me. As is, I want my man to break the gender stereotypes...kinda like Kenshin Himura doing the laundry.😍

 

[cacaia]

How do you reconcile MBTI J, as we've already gone over - with Socionics "Ni" state of mind: "a dreamy, mysterious, wistful, melancholic, or reflective state of inner discovery and searching; reflecting upon the future or the past". It's basically the opposite of being orderly and organised, following schedules etc and is instead spending time reflecting internally. This screams everything but MBTI J. There is a potential argument here that perhaps the Ni type "organises" their mind or intuitions - but this is nonsense, what part of "mysterious" sounds like "planning, scheduling, organising and orderly", what part of "dreamy" fits it? It's uh, not a match. From the Wikisocion description of "Ni": So Ni manifests as a lack of direct attention to the world around oneself and is detached from worldy affairs - but J is literally about being orderly and organised? It notes that the Ni types mental world can result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity - but MBTI J is about being organised and orderly, planning things, scheduling things, it's the exact opposite of being lazy. It doesn't work. You'll understand eventually, hopefully.

I think you're thinking in a very tight manner. It is not exactly as you say. I usually don't answer posts like yours because they're not worth it. I'm sure you'll reply to this post with yet another snarky reply to merely create anger and more tension from other members who feel they need to protect their points of view from yours. Us Ni dominant people OBVIOUSLY can't run around all the time in a state of dreaminess. I would love to actually do that, but I'm an adult and need to eat. For that, I need a freaking job. People train themselves to emerge from their cozy world of dreams, you know. Otherwise we would retreat into a monastery somewhere. And trust me, I would, if I were rich. But, alas, I am part of the 99 percent.
So, it feels like whatever anyone says, you'll just argue and place people in tight boxes, which you think it's correct. I mean, by all means, go ahead. But I will not be part of this silly little drama you want to start. Unless you are trolling or something.
Besides, I was joking about the gods of dishes. There are none. Don't be so daft, yeah?

 

[Polaris]

How do you reconcile MBTI J, as we've already gone over - with Socionics "Ni" state of mind: "a dreamy, mysterious, wistful, melancholic, or reflective state of inner discovery and searching; reflecting upon the future or the past".
It's basically the opposite of being orderly and organised, following schedules etc and is instead spending time reflecting internally. This screams everything but MBTI J.

There is a potential argument here that perhaps the Ni type "organises" their mind or intuitions - but this is nonsense, what part of "mysterious" sounds like "planning, scheduling, organising and orderly", what part of "dreamy" fits it? It's uh, not a match.

Being mysterious and dreamy is in no way at odds with seeking closure in one's dealings with the external world (J). Obviously they aren't synonymous with each other, but no one claimed they were. The point is that they're compatible.

It notes that the Ni types mental world can result in a great deal of laziness and apparent inactivity - but MBTI J is about being organised and orderly, planning things, scheduling things, it's the exact opposite of being lazy.

Not really. Someone who plans things out could very well be far lazier than someone who improvises. "Lazy" means unwilling to exert energy; it doesn't mean living without plans. Living without plans can, in fact, very often lead to a great deal more energy being expended than would otherwise be the case.

 

[Turi]

I think you're thinking in a very tight manner. It is not exactly as you say. I usually don't answer posts like yours because they're not worth it. I'm sure you'll reply to this post with yet another snarky reply to merely create anger and more tension from other members who feel they need to protect their points of view from yours. Us Ni dominant people OBVIOUSLY can't run around all the time in a state of dreaminess. I would love to actually do that, but I'm an adult and need to eat. For that, I need a freaking job. People train themselves to emerge from their cozy world of dreams, you know. Otherwise we would retreat into a monastery somewhere. And trust me, I would, if I were rich. But, alas, I am part of the 99 percent.
So, it feels like whatever anyone says, you'll just argue and place people in tight boxes, which you think it's correct. I mean, by all means, go ahead. But I will not be part of this silly little drama you want to start. Unless you are trolling or something.
Besides, I was joking about the gods of dishes. There are none. Don't be so daft, yeah?

I'm not placing anybody in any box - I'm not pointing out what "Ni" is supposed to be for example, and how it directly contradicts the idea of being a "J" type in MBTI. It doesn't work. There's a very obvious clash.
If somebody is preferring to be realistic and live in the real world because they have to, gotta do what you subjectively perceive to need to be done because this is your mindset, well, they're not actually a match for "Ni" then.
They can squirm all they like and try whatever mental gymnastics they need to to force their obvious S preferences into "Ni dom" if they want, doesn't bother me - it's just that it's wrong. Doesn't work. Not a fit. It's pretty much completely redefining what say, "Ni" is, and then saying you fit that version of it.

Jung literally notes at one point that the introverted intuitive type can be so oblivious to reality that a person living in a brothel didn't even realise it, they didn't connect the dots, they're way removed from reality - the idea of feeling like you have to go to work, earn money, do the dishes, clean the house etc doesn't fit. I'm not saying "Ni doms" don't work or whatever, I'm just saying the general mindset is very far removed from this cleaning-the-house gotta-do-what-adults-do mentality. They're not rational, intuition is irrational. It doesn't work.

Please don't resort to insults etc such as "daft", there's no need - surely we can have a conversation like normal people without name-calling etc.

Being mysterious and dreamy is in no way at odds with seeking closure in one's dealings with the external world (J). Obviously they aren't synonymous with each other, but no one claimed they were. The point is that they're compatible.

Not really. Someone who plans things out could very well be far lazier than someone who improvises. "Lazy" means unwilling to exert energy; it doesn't mean living without plans. Living without plans can, in fact, very often lead to a great deal more energy being expended than would otherwise be the case.

Careful on your back.

 

[Polaris]

Careful on your back.

What is that supposed to mean? Are you threatening me?

 

[cacaia]

Thing is, it's no longer a conversation.In the end we're all going to die, so these conversations don't even matter. They are not real, because nothing is real. Well, I said I was going to stay outta yo way, so. Bye.

 

[Turi]

What is that supposed to mean? Are you threatening me?

It's intended as a joke, because of all the mental gymnastics you appear to be partaking in.

 

[Kanra Jest]

Lol!
Now, I must admit, if it wasn't stereotypical for women to clean, then it probably would not be that problematic for me. As is, I want my man to break the gender stereotypes...kinda like Kenshin Himura doing the laundry.😍

Haha ahh yes Kenshin! Good point! Then I shall provide you with eye candy as such, for it is only fair

 

[cacaia]

Haha ahh yes Kenshin! Good point! Then I shall provide you with eye candy as such, for it is only fair

😻❤️😻🤤🤤🤤

 

[Kanra Jest]

What is that supposed to mean? Are you threatening me?

 

[cacaia]

So, in conclusion, it sounds like my answer is, basically, yes. It is J Ness.
I got a little nettled with Turi, as a few here did, too, and mainly because I wasn't ready to talk about the S or N thing yet. I wanted to talk about J P. If this isn't J of me, I don't know what else is.
Also, Turi needs to, instead of just putting people into boxes so quickly, analyze the WHYs of a person's behavior. It wasn't until we we're all talking last night that I realized that it's not about the dishes per se, it's about defying tradition and holding my husband to defy tradition with me.
Now,Turi, sir, I Know I am not an ISFJ precisely because I despise tradition if it doesn't make sense, and I am definitely an innovator. Thank you all- Turi included- for helping me out with this!

 

[Jaguar]

For crying out loud, people. I've lost count how many Se doms admitted being clean freaks because it is aesthetically pleasing.

People can do X for different reasons. Open your mind.

 

[Turi]

So, in conclusion, it sounds like my answer is, basically, yes. It is J Ness.
I got a little nettled with Turi, as a few here did, too, and mainly because I wasn't ready to talk about the S or N thing yet. I wanted to talk about J P. If this isn't J of me, I don't know what else is.
Also, Turi needs to, instead of just putting people into boxes so quickly, analyze the WHYs of a person's behavior. It wasn't until we we're all talking last night that I realized that it's not about the dishes per se, it's about defying tradition and holding my husband to defy tradition with me.
Now,Turi, sir, I Know I am not an ISFJ precisely because I despise tradition if it doesn't make sense, and I am definitely an innovator. Thank you all- Turi included- for helping me out with this!

I brought up S/N because it is relevant to your question - the scenario wasn't J/P exclusive, it was also pertaining to S/N differences.
I have no idea where you're going with tradition, doesn't have much to do with anything and is arguably closer to Feeling than Sensation, but anyway - what has the dishes got to do with defying tradition? Can you elaborate on this?
Is your culture typically one to not do dishes, so you defy tradition by wanting the dishes done? And this makes you an N, somehow? I'm a little lost here as to the relevance.

We're all innovators.