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  1. #1
    Senior Member
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    Default Types and natural assertiveness

    I asked my own brain this question "what are the most naturally assertive MBTI types ?"

    I do mean "natural" and DO NOT mean assertiveness that depends on the will itself.

    ---

    I Googled the term because I'm lazy, and because I read other definitions which are more or less similar. Literature is not math.

    ASSERTIVENESS = "confident and forceful behaviour"

    We have confidence, forcefulness, and externality.

    This basically means to me "constant psychological impact".

    But constant psychological impact needs quantity (because it is an impact) and quality (because it is constant).

    For Myersian dichotomies, I'll use the definitions we can find here :
    https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-...e-dynamics.htm

    ---

    Here are the definitions as I processed and simplified :

    Extroverts are more quantitatively inputting and more quantitatively outputting.
    Introverts are less quantitatively inputting and less quantitatively outputting.
    Judgers are less quantitatively inputting and more quantitatively outputting.
    Perceivers are more quantitatively inputting and less quantitatively outputting.

    Sensors' input is more quantitatively concrete and less quantitatively abstract.
    Intuitors' input is less quantitatively concrete and more quantitatively abstract.
    Thinkers' output is more quantitatively concrete and less quantitatively abstract.
    Feelers' output is less quantitatively concrete and more quantitatively abstract.

    Sensors' concrete input is more qualitatively high than their abstract input.
    Intuitors' abstract input is more qualitatively high than their concrete input.
    Thinkers' concrete output is more qualitatively high than their abstract output.
    Feelers' abstract output is more qualitatively high than their concrete output.

    ---

    But what does quality of input and output mean ?

    Quality needs coherence, that means relationship between concrete and abstract.

    High quality abstract output means it's based from high quality (not quantity !) concrete input. I mean, abstractions based on concrete realities.
    High quality concrete output means it's based from high quality (not quantity !) abstract input. I mean, concretions that are based on abstract realities.

    Assertiveness basically means "outputting to inputters".

    To know what to output and what an inputter is, we do need input from potential inputters or the remaining of the world, but not very much. Think of Ramanujan. His input is quantitatively low and qualitatively high. His output is quantitatively high and qualitatively high. He only read 2 math books and he's a math genius.

    Another way to think of an extremely assertive person, think of GG Allin. Same thing for quantity and quality of input and output than Ramanujan. So I do think Ramanujan is another extremely assertive person, and I do think GG Allin is a music genius. For a musical equivalent of Ramanujan, think of Ian Curtis (Joy Division). Same thing.

    But Ramanujan and GG Allin didn't have the same types ! Ramanujan is ENFJ-EII-4sx and GG Allin is ESTJ-LSE-8sx ! Both are Myersian extroverts, Ramanujan is a Socionic introvert. But I think both are not extroverted or introverted very much. They're nearly ambiverts. I use Socionics and Enneagram to help myself to think of Myersian realities, even if this thread is essentially for the Myersian thing.

    High quality and high quantity abstract output needs high quality and low quantity concrete input. This is Ramanujan.
    High quality and high quantity concrete output needs high quality and low quantity abstract input. This is GG Allin.

    ---

    For extremely high quality of input, we need extreme S/N.
    For extremely high quality of output, we need extreme T/F.
    For extremely high quantity of output, we need extreme E and extreme J.
    For extremely low quantity of input, we need extreme I and extreme J.

    But we can't have extreme J with extreme E or extreme I, because according to the definitions, the more you're J, the more you're an ambivert. The more you're P, the more you're an extreme E or I.

    ---

    Theoretically, I think the most assertive types in Myersian terms are :
    - ambiverts
    - extreme sensors and extreme intuiters
    - extreme thinkers and extreme feelers
    - extreme judgers

    ---

    If you think I'm wrong, you can correct me, I do encourage you to assert yourself even if you don't fit into these theoretical criteria, but I'm not afraid of you.

    And I think asserting oneself while not fitting into these criteria is very meritorious. Because the assertiveness I just talked about is purely natural and has nothing to do with will itself.

  2. #2
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    4,960

    Default

    I don't agree with your assessments of the types and how they function. Perhaps it would make more sense if you transitioned to more specific Je/Ji and Pe/Pi descriptions.
    '“Sometimes I think I have felt everything I'm ever gonna feel.
    And from here on out, I'm not gonna feel anything new.

    Just lesser versions of what I've already felt.

    - look it up yourself



  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    483

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tony_goth View Post
    I asked my own brain this question "what are the most naturally assertive MBTI types ?"

    I do mean "natural" and DO NOT mean assertiveness that depends on the will itself.

    ---

    I Googled the term because I'm lazy, and because I read other definitions which are more or less similar. Literature is not math.

    ASSERTIVENESS = "confident and forceful behaviour"

    We have confidence, forcefulness, and externality.

    This basically means to me "constant psychological impact".

    But constant psychological impact needs quantity (because it is an impact) and quality (because it is constant).

    For Myersian dichotomies, I'll use the definitions we can find here :
    https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-...e-dynamics.htm

    ---

    Here are the definitions as I processed and simplified :

    Extroverts are more quantitatively inputting and more quantitatively outputting.
    Introverts are less quantitatively inputting and less quantitatively outputting.
    Judgers are less quantitatively inputting and more quantitatively outputting.
    Perceivers are more quantitatively inputting and less quantitatively outputting.

    Sensors' input is more quantitatively concrete and less quantitatively abstract.
    Intuitors' input is less quantitatively concrete and more quantitatively abstract.
    Thinkers' output is more quantitatively concrete and less quantitatively abstract.
    Feelers' output is less quantitatively concrete and more quantitatively abstract.

    Sensors' concrete input is more qualitatively high than their abstract input.
    Intuitors' abstract input is more qualitatively high than their concrete input.
    Thinkers' concrete output is more qualitatively high than their abstract output.
    Feelers' abstract output is more qualitatively high than their concrete output.

    ---

    But what does quality of input and output mean ?

    Quality needs coherence, that means relationship between concrete and abstract.

    High quality abstract output means it's based from high quality (not quantity !) concrete input. I mean, abstractions based on concrete realities.
    High quality concrete output means it's based from high quality (not quantity !) abstract input. I mean, concretions that are based on abstract realities.

    Assertiveness basically means "outputting to inputters".

    To know what to output and what an inputter is, we do need input from potential inputters or the remaining of the world, but not very much. Think of Ramanujan. His input is quantitatively low and qualitatively high. His output is quantitatively high and qualitatively high. He only read 2 math books and he's a math genius.

    Another way to think of an extremely assertive person, think of GG Allin. Same thing for quantity and quality of input and output than Ramanujan. So I do think Ramanujan is another extremely assertive person, and I do think GG Allin is a music genius. For a musical equivalent of Ramanujan, think of Ian Curtis (Joy Division). Same thing.

    But Ramanujan and GG Allin didn't have the same types ! Ramanujan is ENFJ-EII-4sx and GG Allin is ESTJ-LSE-8sx ! Both are Myersian extroverts, Ramanujan is a Socionic introvert. But I think both are not extroverted or introverted very much. They're nearly ambiverts. I use Socionics and Enneagram to help myself to think of Myersian realities, even if this thread is essentially for the Myersian thing.

    High quality and high quantity abstract output needs high quality and low quantity concrete input. This is Ramanujan.
    High quality and high quantity concrete output needs high quality and low quantity abstract input. This is GG Allin.

    ---

    For extremely high quality of input, we need extreme S/N.
    For extremely high quality of output, we need extreme T/F.
    For extremely high quantity of output, we need extreme E and extreme J.
    For extremely low quantity of input, we need extreme I and extreme J.

    But we can't have extreme J with extreme E or extreme I, because according to the definitions, the more you're J, the more you're an ambivert. The more you're P, the more you're an extreme E or I.

    ---

    Theoretically, I think the most assertive types in Myersian terms are :
    - ambiverts
    - extreme sensors and extreme intuiters
    - extreme thinkers and extreme feelers
    - extreme judgers

    ---

    If you think I'm wrong, you can correct me, I do encourage you to assert yourself even if you don't fit into these theoretical criteria, but I'm not afraid of you.

    And I think asserting oneself while not fitting into these criteria is very meritorious. Because the assertiveness I just talked about is purely natural and has nothing to do with will itself.
    GG Allin was SLE-Ti so/sp 6w5. CP 6 is an easy call: he had a life pattern of falling behind the eight-ball due to interpersonal conflicts and taking things too personal. You need a lot of help with the enneagram.
    Click here for my 2500+ Enneagram Type List to type yourself and others with. It's the only valid breakdown for every enneagram type, wing and stack.

    Click here for the only valid visual typing model of stackings on earth and socionics.
    Click here for enneagram type descriptions as a supplement to the only valid breakdown for every type, wing and stack.
    Click here for my typings of 100+ fictional exemplars and here for my typings of 90+ typology central members.

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