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  1. #41
    Senior Member Shadow Play's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcoder View Post
    While there is a correspondence, J/P is not Conscientiousness. Correspondence is not the same as firm overlap, you can be a P with conscientiousness. I personally consider myself self-motivated and diligent, and I prefer participating in tasks which I consider productive, I struggle to engage in strictly entertaining activities for very long...but I am conscientious in a less structured way than what your typical "J" would be. Personally, I find that my ADD is more limiting than P in that. Big 5 has a limiting definition of Conscientiousness...

    ...you can be conscientious and spontaneous simultaneously, it just depends upon which types of tasks you engage in. In something like college, that planning and scheduling is required more...it's not the case in everything. A paramedic team responding to emergencies is a situation in which what I'm trying to explain is exemplified. There is the foundational preparation or planning of what to do in situations, but it is used in a way that is spontaneous and adaptive as opposed to structured, organized, or planned. You literally cannot plan in that, you don't even know what to expect a lot of times. Take that and expand it into an overall underlying concept that can be applied to more situations than that.
    The six facets of Conscientiousness are:

    • Competence
    • Order
    • Dutifulness
    • Achievement Striving
    • Self-Discipline
    • Deliberation

    Order, Dutifulness, Self-Discipline, and Deliberation are facets which directly overlap with J/P, so that's four out of six facets. You say the Big 5 has a limiting definition, but I find it more expansive than J/P, not less so, since it also accounts for a desire for competence and achievement striving - traits you cite as examples of higher Conscientiousness. I suspect it's more likely you're a mixed bag of facets with varying preferences, some stronger in preference than others.

    In my case, I'm higher on Competence and Deliberation, so-so on Order and Dutifulness, and Self-Discipline is my Achilles' heel - although even that's not too low, because I abstain completely from drugs and alcohol. Achievement Striving is a fuzzy grey area which depends on how an achievement is defined. If we think of it based on how society defines achievement, then I would be rock bottom because I don't care about owning an expensive car or house, having a career that pays a six-digit salary, or settling down with a partner and kids. My sense of accomplishment is more personal than that.

    I've noticed a change in priorities as of late. In my youth, I was content to spend hours upon hours entertaining myself with leisure activities. That's not to say I no longer care for recreation, but the times I've been most satisfied have been those times when I've solved a problem or completed a project, while recreation serves mainly to provide a breather from work. Still, this change has not made it easier to mould myself to a schedule. I'm not very good at estimating completion times because I work in bursts of inspiration. So, I could spend hours tooling around with something, and then hit upon something and all this productivity comes flooding through.
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  2. #42
    幽霊||๏ ɴᴏ sᴜʙᴍᴇʀsɪᴏɴ Hexcoder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Play View Post
    The six facets of Conscientiousness are:

    • Self-discipline
    • Dutifulness
    • Competence
    • Order
    • Deliberation
    • Achievement Striving

    Self-discipline, Dutifulness, Order, and Deliberation are facets which directly overlap with J/P, so that's four out of six facets. You say the Big 5 has a limiting definition, but I find it more expansive than J/P, not less so, since it also accounts for a desire for competence and achievement striving - traits you cite as examples of higher Conscientiousness. I suspect it's more likely you're a mixed bag of facets with varying preferences, some stronger in preference than others.

    Okay, I concede that I haven't researched Big 5 as much and I was unaware there was that much direct overlap. I was under the impression that it was more of a statistical correlation.

    Yes, agreed that J/P is more limiting...but that doesn't negate that Conscientiousness is also limiting from my point of view. Pretty much everything is relative to comparison, but I wasn't claiming it's limited in comparison to MBTI. (In the post above my response to you, I also said that MBTI is limiting.) Rather, my stance is that it's limiting compared to real life / everyday possibilities. There are certain aspects of Conscientiousness descriptions that imply to be diligent and efficient...or conscientious as in the dictionary definition...is correlated with planning and structure, and that is what I disagree with.

    I concede that being a mix of J/P is quite probable in my case, but I still consider myself more P in MBTI. I'm not a planner / scheduling person, I find that absolutely suffocating (it robs me of my bursts of inspiration, also) and have worked my ass off to separate myself from situations that require me to do so. It's one of the primary reasons I refuse to be anything other than self-employed in whatever career I choose to change to in my future...aka one of the reasons I say fuck the system. I've recently questioned the J/P due to certain traits I have in combination with wondering how my disorders impact my perception of which narrow box I allegedly fit into...



    ...but that died as soon as my INTJ boyfriend started talking about how he naturally falls into scheduling and routines. Lol...


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Play View Post
    In my case, I'm higher on Competence and Deliberation, so-so on Dutifulness and Order, and Self-Discipline is my Achilles' heel - although even that's not too low, because I abstain completely from drugs and alcohol. Achievement Striving is a fuzzy grey area which depends on how an achievement is defined. If we think of it based on how society defines achievement, then I would be rock bottom because I don't care about owning an expensive car or house, having a career that pays a six-digit salary, or settling down with a partner and kids. My sense of accomplishment is more personal than that.

    I've noticed a change in priorities as of late. In my youth, I was content to spend hours upon hours entertaining myself with leisure activities. That's not to say I no longer care for recreation, but the times I've been most satisfied have been those times when I've solved a problem or completed a project, while recreation serves mainly to provide a breather from work. Still, this change has not made it easier to mould myself to a schedule. I'm not very good at estimating completion times because I work in bursts of inspiration. So, I could spend hours tooling around with something, and then hit upon something and all this productivity comes flooding through.

    Yeah, I'm exactly this same way...although I do intend to have a six digit salary. I think in my case though, I have a strong "burst of inspiration" for it due to my experiences throughout life. I don't desire six figures for status, image, society's definiton of success, lust for luxurious materialistic possessions, or some petty (imo) bullshit such as that...I desire it as protection (from people and negative or impoverished circumstances), liberation (from restrictions and boundaries), and also to help others who have had it rough like I have...things of that nature.
    JOHARI || NOHARI
    There is always something to judge for: humans are infinitely flawed, we can never be perfect. To me, diversity is the beauty in it all: without it there is no discovery, no curiosity, no exploration...yet, that inescapable difference is what they judge. Judge away, I say: it will never corrode my individuality.
    I'd rather have grim reality than superficial happiness...don't expect me to play along with fake escapist social fluff, I like it raw and real.

  3. #43
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    If you hate your type you basically inevitably hate yourself, at least to some degree ... and I don't hate myself.


    Although I think that the profiles are somewhat blown out of proportions.

  4. #44
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    If you hate your type you basically inevitably hate yourself, at least to some degree ... and I don't hate myself.


    Although I think that the profiles are somewhat blown out of proportions.
    I agree on all counts. I have always liked my own type, and hoped/assumed that everyone would like their own, provided they know themselves reasonably well and do not suffer from poor self-esteem.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  5. #45
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    no, but i hate the stereotypes associated with it.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  6. #46
    Senior Member Shadow Play's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcoder View Post
    Okay, I concede that I haven't researched Big 5 as much and I was unaware there was that much direct overlap. I was under the impression that it was more of a statistical correlation.
    The statistical correlation between J/P and Conscientiousness is -0.49 (the closer to 1 or -1, the greater the correlation). That's quite a lot lower than E/I and S/N, which are -0.74 and 0.72, respectively, but a bit higher than T/F, which is 0.44.

    My comparison between the individual Big 5 facets and J/P wasn't based on statistical data. I had instead extrapolated on the overlapping areas between the two, and Competence and Achievement Striving were the least relevant to J/P items on the Form M.

    Yes, agreed that J/P is more limiting...but that doesn't negate that Conscientiousness is also limiting from my point of view. Pretty much everything is relative to comparison, but I wasn't claiming it's limited in comparison to MBTI.
    Okay, I get you now.

    It's one of the primary reasons I refuse to be anything other than self-employed in whatever career I choose to change to in my future...aka one of the reasons I say fuck the system.
    I'm not judging you for your career choices - in fact, I've often contemplated pursuing self-employment - but isn't there a lot of risk involved when self-employed? If so, I'd consider that another potential indicator of lower Conscientiousness (or, more specifically, an area where you'd be lower on at least one facet). I'd imagine someone higher on that dimension might prefer a 9-to-5 job because of the stability it provides.

    I've recently questioned the J/P due to certain traits I have in combination with wondering how my disorders impact my perception of which narrow box I allegedly fit into...
    It's possible your various disorders might impact upon that dimension.

    Yeah, I'm exactly this same way...although I do intend to have a six digit salary. I think in my case though, I have a strong "burst of inspiration" for it due to my experiences throughout life. I don't desire six figures for status, image, society's definiton of success, lust for luxurious materialistic possessions, or some petty (imo) bullshit such as that...I desire it as protection (from people and negative or impoverished circumstances), liberation (from restrictions and boundaries), and also to help others who have had it rough like I have...things of that nature.
    Whatever floats your boat. In my case, it'd be more of an issue of not knowing what to do with that disposable income. Still, with all the student debt I have to pay off plus retirement, I might not have much left over anyways. Such is life.
    Last edited by Shadow Play; 06-23-2019 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Grammar.

  7. #47
    Senior Member cacaia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hummingbird Spirit View Post
    I think there are so many different ways people have looked at it, that it is making it appear more subjective than it is.

    Often times the difference comes from people looking more at dichotomies and stereotyping types rather than learning and understanding the cognitive functions, the function axis, and how each function builds upon another. I also feel enneagram can play in to show how while a type may be that type, it can vary due to other things like that.
    Yeah, when I wrote that previous post, I was a little pissed ;-) When I go by my functions alone, I am a solid INFJ, sometimes ENFJ, depending. But then there are many people, I found, that for some reason or another, will dispute that. like "oh, you're NFJ? prove it. " And then those very people who actually don't know me at all in the real world, keep trying to convince me they know me better than myself, or people who actually do know me and can vouch for me. This is why I wrote what I wrote. It can be quite maddening, as much as it is liberating.
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Non_xsense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Play View Post

    Whatever floats your boat. In my case, it'd be more of an issue of not knowing what to do with that disposable income. Still, with all the student debt I have to pay off plus retirement, I might not have much left over anyways. Such is life.
    When i got my first payment i had all the money all over my room ( just buying videogames ). Learning how to focus your ideas and reality is a great skill to have ... Growing is a concept that many people put aside

    .

  9. #49
    Senior Member Non_xsense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexcoder View Post
    At this point, after 6 or so years of wasting time with involvement and research, I've grown past it and come to realize that you can understand a person far better without it, as it merely creates unnecessary confines / restrictions that prevent the majority of typology users from perceiving the versatility that exists in everyone.
    For sure , internet is another world in which people can hide them self . Reality is alot more complex than one theory but... Mbti helped me to understand people as the first door , you can always find a richer world inside than any actual knowledge.

  10. #50
    幽霊||๏ ɴᴏ sᴜʙᴍᴇʀsɪᴏɴ Hexcoder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Play View Post
    The statistical correlation between J/P and Conscientiousness is -0.49 (the closer to 1 or -1, the greater the correlation). That's quite a lot lower than E/I and S/N, which are -0.74 and 0.72, respectively, but a bit higher than T/F, which is 0.44.

    My comparison between the individual Big 5 facets and J/P wasn't based on statistical data. I had instead extrapolated on the overlapping areas between the two, and Competence and Achievement Striving were the least relevant to J/P items on the Form M.
    Okay.

    I'm not judging you for your career choices - in fact, I've often contemplated pursuing self-employment - but isn't there a lot of risk involve when self-employed? If so, I'd consider that another potential indicator of lower Conscientiousness (or, more specifically, an area where you'd be lower on at least one facet). I'd imagine someone higher on that dimension might prefer a 9-to-5 job because of the stability it provides.
    No. What I do is more stable than the 9-5, that's one of the main reasons I do it. I'll DM reasons why--if not the main reason.

    My conscientiousness scores fluctuate between ranges of low and medium-high. It's never been super high. Low scores are to be expected with ADD alone, though. My statements weren't based upon my subjective experiences or views of myself, but the examination of the concept itself.

    It's possible your various disorders might impact upon that dimension.
    Yeah...guess we'll never know unless I get treatment and end up being pretty much whatever my norm is. ADD effects it the most, as it overlaps with low conscientiousness.

    Whatever floats your boat. In my case, it'd be more of an issue of not knowing what to do with that disposable income. Still, with all the student debt I have to pay off plus retirement, I might not have much left over anyways. Such is life.
    Indeed it is...and you can always find shit to do with money. It flies out the window. But to each his own.


    I will be busy and don't know when I will be very responsive again from here. Whenever I catch a break from work, I guess...which could be whenever.
    JOHARI || NOHARI
    There is always something to judge for: humans are infinitely flawed, we can never be perfect. To me, diversity is the beauty in it all: without it there is no discovery, no curiosity, no exploration...yet, that inescapable difference is what they judge. Judge away, I say: it will never corrode my individuality.
    I'd rather have grim reality than superficial happiness...don't expect me to play along with fake escapist social fluff, I like it raw and real.

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