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1. Originally Posted by wildcat
This is a good post.

Yes, I noticed earlier on there is a minority in the INTP group with Si as their third function. If Ne is in the orthodox place as the auxilary function, there is an unmatch of balance. If you have on the other hand Si as the fourth function, then you can have Ne beside it as the fifth function, and maintain the balance.
What INTP has Ne at fifth? If Ne/Si were that low, they wouldn't come out as INTP.

You can have Ne as first (strongest) and still come out as INTP (like me). That would depend on the relative strengths of the other functions.
Si is the complement of Ne.
I find it difficult to understand people can be unconcerned about balance. There is no pattern without a balance.

And as you say, the pattern can be seen in the test results. If Ti is the first function, it follows Fe is at the other end of the line and Te and Fi complement each other in the middle as the 4th and the 5th. If Ne is the second function, it follows Si is close the other end the 7th, and Ni and Se complement each other near the middle as the third and the sixth.
This is the medial line, it has a sway, it is not rigid. The middle functions, the 4th and the 5th, change places frequently. The more you move towards the edge, the more it would disturb the balance.
If Si is the third, then we have to look for Ne, and Ni and Se. If the P functions do not have a pattern, it is not likely the J functions can have one.

All the possibe patterns are related, and their number is limited. The choices are easy to see. Ne and Si, as second and third, simply do not thyme in any of these.
So you're saying it should be Ti-Ne-Ni-Te-Fi-Se-Si-Fe or Ti-Ne-Ni-Fi-Te-Se-Si-Fe. That does seem to be close to what many are getting.

But with both attitudes of the perception functions next to each other like that, wouldn't that create unbalance? In one case, the primary functions are T-N-N-T. I guess that would go along with the ultimate NT preference, but still, in the original Jungian conception, (dealing with only the four), there was supposed to be a balanced primary use of all four processes (in one attitude or the other). It doesn't seem likely that all forms of Sensing are ego-dystonic to us. (Remember, Jung's concept was about ego-consciousness, hence we must be conscious to one form of all four processes).

It seems to make sense the way John has it. You have alternation of J-P-P-J; and attitudes e-i-e-i; and then the same J/P order, but with hte attitudes reversed for the shadows. The CP test would to me indicate that some functions are either overdeveloped, or underdeveloped (and of course, also the possibility that people are misunderstanding questions. I thought I was very good at Fi stuff, and initially came out as INFP, but then had to rethink what stuff like "staying true to what's important for you" meant. And the site says that it's NTP's that get the most hung up on the way questions are worded).
I have nothing against what John and Linda say, as such. And I know they are not into function order. Perhaps it would be better to leave it out, entirely. For them.

Thanks for mentioning the archetypal roles, too. I shall look into them.
The book "Understanding Yourself...The Personality Type Code" breaks each type into the eight functions, and how they work out, in the ideal preference order. I find it pretty accurate, even for the functions that are out of order.

2. and of course, also the possibility that people are misunderstanding questions. I thought I was very good at Fi stuff, and initially came out as INFP, but then had to rethink what stuff like "staying true to what's important for you" meant.
And here's a possible example of this I have just realized:

One of the questions says "trust what emerges from brainstorming". In the book, this is associated with dom. Ne. I put "Exactly Me". But I thought that simply meant your own intense thinking inside your head. Yet; I perchance just looked up "Brainstorming" (both wiktionary and wikipedia), just to be sure, since I thought I may have seen a different definition of it. Sure enough, brainstorming is defined basically as a group activity.

If this is the definition that Linda was using in that question, then I do not usually get to do it in group settings, and thus graded it too high. I might trust group brainstorming, but the problem, is, I'm not in such groups that often. It is usually in my own head. A dom. Ne is an extravert, after all. Here is another evidence that I'm an introvert. I would also be less likely to trust what everyone else in a group comes up with. I would if only it met my own internal logical criteria.
So Ne most likely should really not come out quite as strong as it did. Especially if there are more misunderstings like that.

And in both the ENTP and ENFP descriptions, which mention "trust what emerges from brainstorming", it mentions "tend to float various potential unrelated ideas just to see where they might lead". (This isn't described for the INTP's supporting Ne). I don't know if that means "float" around a group, or just in your head. But it seems that this is their starting point of the process. Me; I think I start with a logical subject or situation, and then explore possibilities regarding it. (There's also a question for that one. I originally said "Little Me", but then had upgraded it to "mostly me").

3. Originally Posted by Haphazard
I feel as if I've just been handed an ice cream koan.
omgomg I'm gonna pee my pants.

Good form, sir.

4. Originally Posted by Eric B
What INTP has Ne at fifth? If Ne/Si were that low, they wouldn't come out as INTP.

You can have Ne as first (strongest) and still come out as INTP (like me). That would depend on the relative strengths of the other functions.

So you're saying it should be Ti-Ne-Ni-Te-Fi-Se-Si-Fe or Ti-Ne-Ni-Fi-Te-Se-Si-Fe. That does seem to be close to what many are getting.

But with both attitudes of the perception functions next to each other like that, wouldn't that create unbalance? In one case, the primary functions are T-N-N-T. I guess that would go along with the ultimate NT preference, but still, in the original Jungian conception, (dealing with only the four), there was supposed to be a balanced primary use of all four processes (in one attitude or the other). It doesn't seem likely that all forms of Sensing are ego-dystonic to us. (Remember, Jung's concept was about ego-consciousness, hence we must be conscious to one form of all four processes).

It seems to make sense the way John has it. You have alternation of J-P-P-J; and attitudes e-i-e-i; and then the same J/P order, but with hte attitudes reversed for the shadows. The CP test would to me indicate that some functions are either overdeveloped, or underdeveloped (and of course, also the possibility that people are misunderstanding questions. I thought I was very good at Fi stuff, and initially came out as INFP, but then had to rethink what stuff like "staying true to what's important for you" meant. And the site says that it's NTP's that get the most hung up on the way questions are worded).

The book "Understanding Yourself...The Personality Type Code" breaks each type into the eight functions, and how they work out, in the ideal preference order. I find it pretty accurate, even for the functions that are out of order.
I should not write posts when I am tired. You are quite correct, if Ne is fifth, Se should be the first. I did not mean INTP but only to discuss the chance of complement partners being next to each other, which can take place only in the middle.
The medial INTP order looks to be in the range of Ti Ne Ni Te Fi Se Si Fe.. the fourth and the fifth being interchangable.

I like your attitude. You are not emotional over the issue of function order, you want to look at the thing from every side.

I try to explain how I see the thing. You are welcome to disagree.
It is the first two functions.

P Ti Ne
P Ne Ti

P Fi Ne
P Ne Fi

P Ti Se
P Se Ti

P Fi Se
P Se Fi

The missing functions (of primary and auxiliary of P type): Si, Ni, Fe Te;
therefore the missing functions of J: Se, Ne, Fi, Ti

and then I generalize the particular rule of the two primary functions of every type and I make it the rule of all the eight functions of every type. Why I do this?
Because a rule does not change in the middle of the procedure.

P: Se > Si; Ne > Ni; Ti > Te; Fi > Fe
J is vice versa.

It follows if INTP is Ti Ne ESFJ is Fe Si, etc.

Then you simply exclude what is impossible. There is not a wide range of choices, is there?

You are quite correct about the jppjjppj. What is the alternative according to the principle?
On the other hand if we look at the function units we have PJPJ.

Yes. Staying true to what is important to you. A good principle.

5. Originally Posted by whatever
If people have spent centuries perfecting the interaction of ingredients in a drink like chartreuse, why should you even think of mixing it? Why mess with something so good that it hasn't had the need to be altered for centuries? I'd say that the sign of quality is that a product can stand alone... a very good tequila should NEVER be taken as a shot or mixed in a margarita- that is a waste.

I've been taken to some "very nice" restraunts before- I knew what water glass was mine and what fork to use, but I laughed too loud and people turned and stared. It seems that the pinnacle of human "sophistication" means to supress our humanity... don't laugh when something amuses you, at least don't do so with abandon!

Eating at someone's house is also wonderful- and a total honor. When in South America, I frequently was invited over to join people for dinner. It was often rather simple fare, the type of food that has been eaten in the region for ages and is grown nearby... it was better than anything I've had in a restraunt. Even here, in my native country, I get invited over by strangers... there are still nice people out there

I've never seen much reason to pay for something that is more enjoyable in its free form- it is more fun to go walking down by the river than to jog on the treadmill any day!

If Friedman couldn't get a free lunch he never met the right people... though he never seemed like a particularly nice man to me anyways

I'm still convinced that the greatest flaw with society is that we've forgotten our humanity
That would make a good film- someone laughing with abandon in El Morocco or Walford Astoria, and people staring with quiet, sophisticated disapproval. You have to whisper in those places.
Inhumanity is absurd rules for behaviour.. and the maitre'd terror.
When I lived in the Russian Town, only the fancy restaurant was open at night. Ridiculously, it was called Bellevue. It was like death. The white linen made me ill, and the red wine looked black in the dim light. One night there was a friendly looking girl in the next table. We kept looking at each other and suddenly she got up and started to walk towards my table. The maitress'd blocked her way. She said: The gentleman wants to be alone.
I did not want to be alone. Who wants to be alone in a restaurant? Nobody.
What did the maitress'd take me for? Milton Friedman?

6. Originally Posted by wildcat
That would make a good film- someone laughing with abandon in El Morocco or Walford Astoria, and people staring with quiet, sophisticated disapproval. You have to whisper in those places.
Inhumanity is absurd rules for behaviour.. and the maitre'd terror.
When I lived in the Russian Town, only the fancy restaurant was open at night. Ridiculously, it was called Bellevue. It was like death. The white linen made me ill, and the red wine looked black in the dim light. One night there was a friendly looking girl in the next table. We kept looking at each other and suddenly she got up and started to walk towards my table. The maitress'd blocked her way. She said: The gentleman wants to be alone.
I did not want to be alone. Who wants to be alone in a restaurant? Nobody.
What did the maitress'd take me for? Milton Friedman?
I had some trouble not laughing even harder at the offended looks I received from the "sophisticated" people eating thier salads with goat cheese and salmon... I had to work even harder to suppress my laughter when the maitre'd asked for me to "please leave" since I was "disturbing the other customers"

At least I did not have to pay with my wine since I was kicked out!

To whisper is not really a human thing to do- were we to whisper, we would have no vocal cords

Human contact is forbidden from the restraunt? Had she been a smart lady, she may have realized that if you spoke you may have enjoyed one another's company and ordered an extra bottle of "black" wine, or some coffee... but then again, you may have spoken outloud or laughed, ruining the dining experience for everyone

7. Originally Posted by whatever
I had some trouble not laughing even harder at the offended looks I received from the "sophisticated" people eating thier salads with goat cheese and salmon... I had to work even harder to suppress my laughter when the maitre'd asked for me to "please leave" since I was "disturbing the other customers"

At least I did not have to pay with my wine since I was kicked out!

To whisper is not really a human thing to do- were we to whisper, we would have no vocal cords

Human contact is forbidden from the restraunt? Had she been a smart lady, she may have realized that if you spoke you may have enjoyed one another's company and ordered an extra bottle of "black" wine, or some coffee... but then again, you may have spoken outloud or laughed, ruining the dining experience for everyone
I have been kicked out of fancy places dozens of times- and every time they performed the thing by handing me the note on a silver tray. I said I have not asked for a note. The maitre'd would say, yes, you pay the bill and then you go and you are not welcome back. The crime could be laughing (a serious offence), or changing a table without asking the maitre'd to fix the change (forbidden by law), or walking around the restaurant room (a very serious offence), or all of them.

I know what.
Laugh every time after dining and drinking! So then you do not have to pay, ever!

The lady was not smart, but she was tough. She had her professional pride to consider.
I wonder how the girl ever got into Bellevue in the first place.
Women are forbidden to enter the fancy places, unless escorted by gentlemen.
She probably had promised to dine quickly, and not to peek at other tables.
And the maitress'd kept watching- therefore she intervened so quickly.

One time I sat down in an outdoor table of an establishment, in the Old Town. They had the white table cloth even there. First I ordered a Scotch. It started to rain, heavily. So I came inside, the glass of Scotch in hand. The maitre'd was very angry! He forgot to whisper. He said: You go now and never, never come back! This is a civilized facility.

8. I say scrap the idea of separate functions for introversion and extroversion.

4 functions (Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, Intuition), directions for each of them. Introversion for Feeling tends to push Thinking towards extroversion and vice versa; same with Sensing/Intuition. But none of the 4 functions points entirely in one direction obviously.

That way, you can account for the same stuff as different distributions of 8. For example, INFJs with extremely extroverted feeling have worse "Fi" than INFJs with moderately extroverted feeling, if that makes sense.

9. Originally Posted by wildcat
I have been kicked out of fancy places dozens of times- and every time they performed the thing by handing me the note on a silver tray. I said I have not asked for a note. The maitre'd would say, yes, you pay the bill and then you go and you are not welcome back. The crime could be laughing (a serious offence), or changing a table without asking the maitre'd to fix the change (forbidden by law), or walking around the restaurant room (a very serious offence), or all of them.

I know what.
Laugh every time after dining and drinking! So then you do not have to pay, ever!

The lady was not smart, but she was tough. She had her professional pride to consider.
I wonder how the girl ever got into Bellevue in the first place.
Women are forbidden to enter the fancy places, unless escorted by gentlemen.
She probably had promised to dine quickly, and not to peek at other tables.
And the maitress'd kept watching- therefore she intervened so quickly.

One time I sat down in an outdoor table of an establishment, in the Old Town. They had the white table cloth even there. First I ordered a Scotch. It started to rain, heavily. So I came inside, the glass of Scotch in hand. The maitre'd was very angry! He forgot to whisper. He said: You go now and never, never come back! This is a civilized facility.

I will never understand how behaving naturally can be such a taboo act- humans are meant to interact!

I rarely go to fancier restraunts, and never on my own accord. I do not like to have to dress up to be able to eat, and my fashion sense usually leaves something to desire anyways I can rarely get the attention of the waiter, or the maitre'd unless I do something improper.

Then I get the wrong attention

I've been told by a waiter at an expensive restraunt that single women diners are usually suspected of prostitution- and that no restraunt wants to have a call girl picking someone up within thier walls! This annoys me, since it's nothing to question if a man goes to a restraunt by himself Sometimes a person goes to a restraunt in order to get food!

Avoiding being rained upon is a crime? This is taking rules to the point of being a living thing unto themselves instead of being something for protection!

Or maybe they didn't want a damp person in the restraunt

I'd go to a bar any day over the average restraunt- questions aren't asked and you can laugh as loudly as you want to!

10. Originally Posted by whatever
I will never understand how behaving naturally can be such a taboo act- humans are meant to interact!

I rarely go to fancier restraunts, and never on my own accord. I do not like to have to dress up to be able to eat, and my fashion sense usually leaves something to desire anyways I can rarely get the attention of the waiter, or the maitre'd unless I do something improper.

Then I get the wrong attention

I've been told by a waiter at an expensive restraunt that single women diners are usually suspected of prostitution- and that no restraunt wants to have a call girl picking someone up within thier walls! This annoys me, since it's nothing to question if a man goes to a restraunt by himself Sometimes a person goes to a restraunt in order to get food!

Avoiding being rained upon is a crime? This is taking rules to the point of being a living thing unto themselves instead of being something for protection!

Or maybe they didn't want a damp person in the restraunt

I'd go to a bar any day over the average restraunt- questions aren't asked and you can laugh as loudly as you want to!
Interaction is a waspie thing only, for the waspie.

Social and racial prejudice go hand in hand.
Waspywise.

A "high-class" restaurant is a waspie social laboratory.

Ford loved fancy restaurants.
You know, the waspie auto maker.

He used to sit in the waspie establishment, while he pondered how much money he would send his friend Wolfie each day.
He was overjoyed when Wolfie became the Chancellor of Germany.
And later, when old Hindenburg died, and Wolfie became the Fuehrer, he was simply extatic.

You see now? This is because laughing is forbidden in those waspie restaurants.
The waspies do not want to be disturbed in their big dreams.

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