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Feeling types big gender difference

Logitechu

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All sources I've found of the mbti-population shows that women are over-represented by the feelings types. Especially the NF and SF.

How come?

Is it because women are naturally more caring due to their natural maternal instinct? gender-roles are planted into their DNA through thousand years of history?




My thoughts / why I mention nature:
Such as myself believe personality is something you are born with, highly genetic with a random factor (probably not 100 %). I mean, gender is random, why can't personality also be. Intelligence is another topic for another day. Human nature and birth is so complex saying it is based on the environment would in my opinion be a big underestimation to the power and complexity of nature and genes. The environment shapes you based on your foundation, not necessarily the foundation itself. However people do mature with age and get influenced in various ways.
 

hurl3y4456

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Hormones have a major influence....If estrogen is too (high) or too (low) for a male, then emotional outbursts/irrationality tends to follow. You'll notice the pattern when females undergo menopause.... They start to become less nurturing and more logical/cold following hormone dissipation. Feelings and anxiety are interconnected. That is, the most logical/stoic tend to be the most calm whereas the most emotional tend to be highly anxious. Estrogen is connected with anxiety, so it's likely estrogen increases empathy/feeling.....Having high empathy indirectly leads to a higher propensity to worry. Now, females also have to bear children and nuture them, so it makes sense that empathy/feeling would be magnified in the earlier stages of life. Males on the other hand, have to protect the offspring...So, the ability to logically solve problems is key here. Of course, both Males and Females can use sound logic and it doesn't necessarily follow that if you're a feeler, then your ability to use logic is less sound. We adapt over time to our modes of thinking as a function of the environment. Thus, if females are now starting to translate to a more independent domain (working upper level jobs, independence), then the mind will adapt to new incoming stimulus. Now, suppose all males decided to be dependent and stay at home...Then over time, their minds too would adapt to a new scenario of environmental outcomes/situations/stimulus. I've noticed that females (on avg) tends to be better communicators most likely because energy was invested over time for this purpose....Suppose you take a subset of the population and expose them to physical labor for extended period and not permit any communication...It will then follow that their communication skills would dim over time and translate to new generations if the conditions were imposed for long period....The benefit would be that the new generations would be more physically fit/robust given that nourishment was supplied. Now, if females have to invest more time to take care of child, then it should follow that empathy will become more natural or the skills necessary to nuture.
 

notmyapples

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Truthfully, I'm not sure I believe the gap is that large. I think a lot of men and women mistype one way or the other because of unconscious bias, especially if relying solely on dichotomy which is where the data for the most common stats come from. I don't think I've ever met a feeler male who typed themselves as a feeler at first and similarly I see thinker females typed as feelers disproportionately often online when a thinker typing would be much more readily accepted if they were male.

The idea that women are biologically more caring or empathetic than men in any significant way is itself a concept that is heavily debated upon. I don't necessarily agree with the idea that anxiety is linked with either feeling functions either. For example, the inferior Ne in an ISTJ is a very primary cause for anxiety yet that coexists with them preferring a thinking function. And even if anxiety was a cause for erratic emotion, it would then make sense for most women to have a thinker preference since that would mean their feeling function is less likely to be developed and more likely to exhibit dysfunctional behavior linked to that function.
 

Earl Grey

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Hormones have a major influence....If estrogen is too (high) or too (low) for a male, then emotional outbursts/irrationality tends to follow. You'll notice the pattern when females undergo menopause.... They start to become less nurturing and more logical/cold following hormone dissipation. Feelings and anxiety are interconnected. That is, the most logical/stoic tend to be the most calm whereas the most emotional tend to be highly anxious. Estrogen is connected with anxiety, so it's likely estrogen increases empathy/feeling.....Having high empathy indirectly leads to a higher propensity to worry. Now, females also have to bear children and nuture them, so it makes sense that empathy/feeling would be magnified in the earlier stages of life. Males on the other hand, have to protect the offspring...So, the ability to logically solve problems is key here. Of course, both Males and Females can use sound logic and it doesn't necessarily follow that if you're a feeler, then your ability to use logic is less sound. We adapt over time to our modes of thinking as a function of the environment. Thus, if females are now starting to translate to a more independent domain (working upper level jobs, independence), then the mind will adapt to new incoming stimulus. Now, suppose all males decided to be dependent and stay at home...Then over time, their minds too would adapt to a new scenario of environmental outcomes/situations/stimulus. I've noticed that females (on avg) tends to be better communicators most likely because energy was invested over time for this purpose....Suppose you take a subset of the population and expose them to physical labor for extended period and not permit any communication...It will then follow that their communication skills would dim over time and translate to new generations if the conditions were imposed for long period....The benefit would be that the new generations would be more physically fit/robust given that nourishment was supplied. Now, if females have to invest more time to take care of child, then it should follow that empathy will become more natural or the skills necessary to nuture.

I wonder though, does low emotionality automatically correlate to being a thinker? For example, one can recognize their own biases and still pick Thinking over Feeling. There's also the bit about Feeling in general being a values system, positively correlated to but not necessarily meaning a high degree of emotionality. For one, caring for your fellow man is not exclusive to Feelers. High Thinkers break their backs and build careers for their family, for example. Women can pick Thinking over Feeling just as easily even if they were mothers, the ultimate manifestation is the same- care, but in their own ways (Fe, Te, Fi, Ti). I have this impression that your post alludes to empathy and feeling being Feeler, when they are just motivations carried out by whatever functions and do come out in different ways, but at the core is still 'caring' and 'empathy'.

It is also due to social expectations and how society validates gender expression and presentation, I think. A meek, gentle woman is generally more 'acceptable' than a brash, loud, 'bossy' one. I can see women having to over-explain themselves to be taken more seriously, and likewise I can see Feeler men (especially Fe) adapting to expectations and trying to be tougher and T-like.



Is it because women are naturally more caring due to their natural maternal instinct? gender-roles are planted into their DNA through thousand years of history?

Because they are (generally) not given shit or told to change for crying or caring.
 

Yuurei

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Ugh. I’ve never been a very emotional person and everyone’s insistence that I needed to be was quit...frustrating to say the least
Especially since they’d just bitch at me if I ever actully did express anything.
 

rav3n

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People are born and then processed through the social gender grinder.
 

tommyc

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All sources I've found of the mbti-population shows that women are over-represented by the feelings types. Especially the NF and SF.

How come?

Is it because women are naturally more caring due to their natural maternal instinct? gender-roles are planted into their DNA through thousand years of history?




My thoughts / why I mention nature:
Such as myself believe personality is something you are born with, highly genetic with a random factor (probably not 100 %). I mean, gender is random, why can't personality also be. Intelligence is another topic for another day. Human nature and birth is so complex saying it is based on the environment would in my opinion be a big underestimation to the power and complexity of nature and genes. The environment shapes you based on your foundation, not necessarily the foundation itself. However people do mature with age and get influenced in various ways.

Various answers/ways to answer this... One way is that women are, by nature, more social than men. As a survivial strategy, if nothing else; safety in numbers. Isolation was in early times (and still is in certain instances) dangerous for women. Social networks, built and maintained using emotional intelligence, were vital for all early humans but women in particular, and those instincts and survival tactics remain. F types are primarly concerned with the realm of emotion, people, connections... so its no suprise women would type F more. There's probably natural selection at play, with the most social, feeling women living longer happier lives with more offspring.

[Edit] There may be a social conditioning aspect too, some little girls being encouraged to use their feeling more than is natural... but the reasoning is the same. To enjoy the safety of a social network.
 
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Coriolis

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All sources I've found of the mbti-population shows that women are over-represented by the feelings types. Especially the NF and SF.

How come?

Is it because women are naturally more caring due to their natural maternal instinct? gender-roles are planted into their DNA through thousand years of history?

My thoughts / why I mention nature:
Such as myself believe personality is something you are born with, highly genetic with a random factor (probably not 100 %). I mean, gender is random, why can't personality also be. Intelligence is another topic for another day. Human nature and birth is so complex saying it is based on the environment would in my opinion be a big underestimation to the power and complexity of nature and genes. The environment shapes you based on your foundation, not necessarily the foundation itself. However people do mature with age and get influenced in various ways.
Most statistics on gender and the T/F dichotomy show significant percentages of each gender - often 40% or more - holding the "opposite" preference. That is a large minority for something that is biologically hard wired. MBTI data are also based on self-reporting, which has been consistently demonstrated to reflect gender bias, especially when preceded by any reference to gender. Even being asked to check a box to indicate whether one is male or female has influenced outcomes, both on self-reported preferences and behavior and also skills tests like math exams. (See Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine for many examples.) Explaining that "women usually do this way on this test and men that way" will further bias results. I wonder, then, how close the self-reported T/F difference is to the margin of error of the survey.

In my personal experience, which granted is only anecdotal, type has been a much more reliable indicator than gender of how someone will behave and interact. It is certainly the case for me. Gender based assumptions are mostly wrong, while assumptions based on knowing I am INTJ are mostly correct. Best case, of course, is that people don't assume, but approach each person as an individual and get to know who and how they really are.

Hormones have a major influence....If estrogen is too (high) or too (low) for a male, then emotional outbursts/irrationality tends to follow. You'll notice the pattern when females undergo menopause.... They start to become less nurturing and more logical/cold following hormone dissipation. Feelings and anxiety are interconnected. That is, the most logical/stoic tend to be the most calm whereas the most emotional tend to be highly anxious. Estrogen is connected with anxiety, so it's likely estrogen increases empathy/feeling.....Having high empathy indirectly leads to a higher propensity to worry. Now, females also have to bear children and nuture them, so it makes sense that empathy/feeling would be magnified in the earlier stages of life. Males on the other hand, have to protect the offspring...So, the ability to logically solve problems is key here. Of course, both Males and Females can use sound logic and it doesn't necessarily follow that if you're a feeler, then your ability to use logic is less sound. We adapt over time to our modes of thinking as a function of the environment. Thus, if females are now starting to translate to a more independent domain (working upper level jobs, independence), then the mind will adapt to new incoming stimulus. Now, suppose all males decided to be dependent and stay at home...Then over time, their minds too would adapt to a new scenario of environmental outcomes/situations/stimulus. I've noticed that females (on avg) tends to be better communicators most likely because energy was invested over time for this purpose....Suppose you take a subset of the population and expose them to physical labor for extended period and not permit any communication...It will then follow that their communication skills would dim over time and translate to new generations if the conditions were imposed for long period....The benefit would be that the new generations would be more physically fit/robust given that nourishment was supplied. Now, if females have to invest more time to take care of child, then it should follow that empathy will become more natural or the skills necessary to nuture.
I would question any links between hormones and behavior, to the extent that is based on self-reporting, as described above. Those justifications based on speculations about primitive life cut both ways. A reliance on logic, for instance, would make just as much sense among a sub-population concerned about self-protection and raising the next generation, as it does among those concerned with protection and whatever else one is assigning to males of the species in such a society. Recall also that in most of nature, the fiercest protectors are mothers defending their young. Measured against that standard, the human stereotype is quite unnatural. In any case, learned abilities are not inherited. It takes many generations for genetics to reflect the kind of external pressures that might encourage such adaptation.

Of course, that might indeed be the case, leading to a second hypothesis about the T/F difference, namely that over the centuries, women have been "bred" for F, and men for T. In a society that values women who exhibit more F-like qualities, F women will be more likely to find mates and reproduce, and similar for T men. That might account for why the difference is as small as it is.

Truthfully, I'm not sure I believe the gap is that large. I think a lot of men and women mistype one way or the other because of unconscious bias, especially if relying solely on dichotomy which is where the data for the most common stats come from. I don't think I've ever met a feeler male who typed themselves as a feeler at first and similarly I see thinker females typed as feelers disproportionately often online when a thinker typing would be much more readily accepted if they were male.
I agree, especially about the bias in self-reporting. You might enjoy the book I referenced above. Men and women are much more alike than they are different.

Because the statistics are wrong.
They certainly do reflect unconscious bias, the influence of which it is near impossible to eliminate. Yes, we know that hormonal distributions in males and females are different in a statistically significant way, but we cannot draw meaningful conclusions about actual behavior because of this bias.

Because they are (generally) not given shit or told to change for crying or caring.
Basically, yes. Even cited examples where parents have taken heroic measures to raise children without any gender bias are doing so within a society where such biases are still rampant. The only way to determine with any certainty what truly is hard-wired is to observe behavior and preference in an environment free of any biases or external constraint/coercion. We might be able to arrange such a scenario, but raising a statistically significant sample of children within it for the purposes of scientific study would probably not pass muster before modern research ethics panels, however instructive it would be.
 
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Yuurei

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Because they are (generally) not given shit or told to change for crying or caring.

I’ve gotten a lot of shit for not dong these things. It just isn’t me. Shouldn’t forced on someone one way or the other.
 

Eric B

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It would help to realize that functions are all about complexes. It's complexes in the ego structure that carry the functions that make up out type. And we must remember that male and female are themselves complexes! They are "archetypes", which are collective "ruling patterns", and when an archetype fills up with personal experience, it becomes a person's "complex".

So the way these "gender" complexes are set up; b
ecause females are naturally designed to be the mothers, carrying and nurturing the young child, their natural focus has shifted more to the "humane" or "personal" side of life. (Judging what's "good" or "bad", and including being more in touch with the emotions). Since males then were the breadwinners, and the strong protectors, they became more focused on the "technical" or "impersonal", going simply by "correct" or "incorrect". This is all "instinctual", and as such, is apart of "general" rather than "special" function "use".
The traditional roles of society formed around this. Even though modern society has been changing the roles and integrating both genders to the same sorts of careers and family tasks, the associations have stuck.

So the typological complex (determining the "preferred" function) can parallel this, in which case the person will have a doubly strong leaning toward the personal or impersonal side of things. This may have been the default assignment, but of course, there are many exceptions. So between the gender and the type, one can push toward the personal, and the other toward the impersonal. This may cause some difficulty, depending on how strongly the gender roles are held to in their society.
 

Coriolis

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[FONT=&]It would help to realize that functions are all about complexes. It's complexes in the ego structure that carry the functions that make up out type. And we must remember that male and female are themselves complexes! They are "archetypes", which are collective "ruling patterns", and when an archetype fills up with personal experience, it becomes a person's "complex".

So the way these "gender" complexes are set up; b[/FONT]
ecause females are naturally designed to be the mothers, carrying and nurturing the young child, their natural focus has shifted more to the "humane" or "personal" side of life. (Judging what's "good" or "bad", and including being more in touch with the emotions). Since males then were the breadwinners, and the strong protectors, they became more focused on the "technical" or "impersonal", going simply by "correct" or "incorrect". This is all "instinctual", and as such, is apart of "general" rather than "special" function "use".
The traditional roles of society formed around this. Even though modern society has been changing the roles and integrating both genders to the same sorts of careers and family tasks, the associations have stuck.
Everything beyond the highlighted is conjecture at best. In nature, mothers are the fiercest defenders, and women are credited with having developed agriculture, making them the literal breadwinners, and at least of equal value to men in providing nourishment. Both the male and the female task sets you are assigning benefit from subjective as well as objective treatment (emotion/logic, personal/impersonal, etc), and none of this requires a gender-based power imbalance. While traditional labor distributions were probably justified by the realities of life at the time, gender-based stereotypes or expectations about personal attributes and preferences are not, and appear to have been imposed externally, perhaps as a way of preventing the labor distributions from shifting when realties no longer supported them.

So the typological complex (determining the "preferred" function) can parallel this, in which case the person will have a doubly strong leaning toward the personal or impersonal side of things. This may have been the default assignment, but of course, there are many exceptions. So between the gender and the type, one can push toward the personal, and the other toward the impersonal. This may cause some difficulty, depending on how strongly the gender roles are held to in their society.
Your mention of male and female as archetypes is more realistic in the sense that any human can tap into them, as we all do in various combinations that are frequently not determined by our biological sex. Everything about the actual me has always "pushed toward" the impersonal and systemic, though I am unambiguously biologically female. Only external expectations have sometimes been otherwise, and those have been readily ignored. Either I am some special snowflake/have something significantly wrong with me, or those supposed biological imperatives are weak indeed. I suspect the latter, based on how many other people I run across who are similarly "pushed" toward ways of being that don't align with gender stereotypes.
 

Yuurei

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I hate children. I despise having to take care of people and I’m probably the most un-nurturing soul you could ever meet.

But I’m probably just defective. It could not possibly be that human beings are individuals and a sum total if their environment and experiences.
 

Kanra Jest

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Kinda seems to me mbti is nature and enneagram is nurture... However, I believe it can still be altered with personality disorders and trauma, most likely trauma that 'induces' personality disorders. By what degree I do not know. I am not the same as I use to be and I'm still trying to figure it out, and my co-morbidity confuses myself.

...Now I'm curious. How estrogen and Testosterone influences how the type or expressions might manifest. Or... Whatever influences it may have.

Hmm.

Wait... Being female and male. I often hear that ignorant stereotype of "woman are emotional" and "cry alot" and "men are not in touch with their emotions" and "don't show emotion" (except anger) and I know that's a bunch of bullshit. However, I wonder if there's a sliver to it. As estrogen and testosterone would somewhat point to that if there was a difference. Like there is a difference of male and female ENTP's apparently, as well as other types or so it 'appears'. Such things have been assumed before on other topics I've seen floating around. As I suppose at the very least being "female" makes you more likely to be emotional, and "male" more likely to be less emotional, but the thing also is that culture tends to blur in and influences every aspect of our life and even our personalities to some degree.

Then there's the issue that men and woman both can call themselves neither male or female and just "they" or "them" so if they're identifying as neither then wtf then?

Too many damn factors

--

Yeah, babies and kids are all a nuisance. I am also no caretaker type. Why I always knew I could never be a 2.
 

Coriolis

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Wait... Being female and male. I often hear that ignorant stereotype of "woman are emotional" and "cry alot" and "men are not in touch with their emotions" and "don't show emotion" (except anger) and I know that's a bunch of bullshit. However, I wonder if there's a sliver to it. As estrogen and testosterone would somewhat point to that if there was a difference. Like there is a difference of male and female ENTP's apparently, as well as other types or so it 'appears'. Such things have been assumed before on other topics I've seen floating around. As I suppose at the very least being "female" makes you more likely to be emotional, and "male" more likely to be less emotional, but the thing also is that culture tends to blur in and influences every aspect of our life and even our personalities to some degree.

Then there's the issue that men and woman both can call themselves neither male or female and just "they" or "them" so if they're identifying as neither then wtf then?
Treat everyone as an individual, that's what. I readily identify as female on purely biological grounds, but it doesn't say much more about me. I don't "feel" especially feminine. Then again, I don't feel masculine either. I just feel like me. If you want evidence of the ignorance of that assumption about men, women, and emotion, just look at men watching a sporting event. Emotion is part of the human condition. If we stop penalizing men for expressing emotions, I suspect that distinction will largely go away.
 

tommyc

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Observing the general vibe in this thread, I just wanted to point out that the association of femininity with weakness is rooted in patriachal values. The idea that physical bravery, dominance and rationality is "good" is based on the same prejudice that sentimentality, softness and submissiveness is "bad". I think its important people detach themselves from social prejudice and see that all traits have their own value.
 

Earl Grey

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Observing the general vibe in this thread, I just wanted to point out that the association of femininity with weakness is rooted in patriachal values. The idea that physical bravery, dominance and rationality is "good" is based on the same prejudice that sentimentality, softness and submissiveness is "bad". I think its important people detach themselves from social prejudice and see that all traits have their own value.

This, as well as it is important to create a distinction between a choice of softness and people just being doormats. Mothers, for example (as it has been brought up) are very patient in raising their children, even if they can be little gremlins. If that is not mental and emotional fortitude and a form of incredible big-heartedness and compassion (strength and braveness, you could say), I don't know what is. I know I'd mentally deck a crying kid repeatedly in the face not be able to bear that because my heart just isn't as big.

Then again those words sometimes get lost in the nuance of culture and conversation and bloody semantics. Using strength as an example, there's that concept of what true strength is, some think it's brute force (in which masculinity 'wins out'), some think its restraint (in which feminity 'wins out'). So, the argument to divide the genders based off such qualities really is moot. That being said, I'm pretty sure that people judge say, softness as weakness because it is measured specifically against aggressiveness, in which softness is an absence of aggressiveness, and gets interpret as weakness. That really is not necessarily a sign of weakness at all. Extend this understanding to other traits, and you're golden. As tommyc said, all traits have their own value, positive or not.
 

Earl Grey

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I’ve gotten a lot of shit for not dong these things. It just isn’t me. Shouldn’t forced on someone one way or the other.

Something I've always wondered is what exactly does this kind of gesture (telling people to show emotion) achieves.
 

tommyc

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This, as well as it is important to create a distinction between a choice of softness and people just being doormats. Mothers, for example (as it has been brought up) are very patient in raising their children, even if they can be little gremlins. If that is not mental and emotional fortitude and a form of incredible big-heartedness and compassion (strength and braveness, you could say), I don't know what is. I know I'd mentally deck a crying kid repeatedly in the face not be able to bear that because my heart just isn't as big.

Then again those words sometimes get lost in the nuance of culture and conversation and bloody semantics. Using strength as an example, there's that concept of what true strength is, some think it's brute force (in which masculinity 'wins out'), some think its restraint (in which feminity 'wins out'). So, the argument to divide the genders based off such qualities really is moot. That being said, I'm pretty sure that people judge say, softness as weakness because it is measured specifically against aggressiveness, in which softness is an absence of aggressiveness, and gets interpret as weakness. That really is not necessarily a sign of weakness at all. Extend this understanding to other traits, and you're golden. As tommyc said, all traits have their own value, positive or not.

Absolutely. Eg I see compassion as a sign of strength, whereas aggressiveness is often a sign of weakness. Secure v Insecure.
 
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