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  1. #21
    HOLY blessblessblessbless   PRIDE MONTH™ Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Absolutely. Eg I see empathy as a sign of strength, whereas aggressiveness is often a sign of weakness. Secure v Insecure.
    Would expand and say it's also quite situational, I at least personally think there is such a thing as warranted *'negative' aggression, but I digress (it's one of those nuanced things). In general, I agree that empathy on its own is a positive and 'strong' / valuable character trait, be it masculine or feminine, employed by anyone of any sex or age.
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  2. #22
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    Something I've always wondered is what exactly does this kind of gesture (telling people to show emotion) achieves.

    Everyone else in my family was a feeler. I think they are very uncomfortable around people who are not open and expressive. Maybe they are even weary of people when they do not understand how they feel and cannot "read" them or their motives.

    I could be more specific about a few of my own experiences but I don't think that they apply or are relevant to the question in general.

    Edit: This always seemed strange to me because if people asked what I was thinking/what I wanted I would flat out tell them. I guess that if I stated these things with no outward emotion to back it up it seems ingenuous to them.
    “ they’re on our left, they’re on our right, they’re in front of us, they’re behind us…they can’t get away this time”

    "These voices scream at me "Let it go!"
    (never let go)
    This time I'm screaming back "No! No! No!"
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    My mind's made up, yeah my fear is gone
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  3. #23
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Observing the general vibe in this thread, I just wanted to point out that the association of femininity with weakness is rooted in patriachal values. The idea that physical bravery, dominance and rationality is "good" is based on the same prejudice that sentimentality, softness and submissiveness is "bad". I think its important people detach themselves from social prejudice and see that all traits have their own value.
    Indeed, they do. The notion that bravery, dominance, and rationality are "male" and sentimentality, softness, and submissivenss "female", however, is likewise rooted in patriarchal values. These are human qualities, accessible to all of us. We help no one by continuing to put people in boxes, even if we are willing to assign equal value to each box.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Indeed, they do. The notion that bravery, dominance, and rationality are "male" and sentimentality, softness, and submissivenss "female", however, is likewise rooted in patriarchal values. These are human qualities, accessible to all of us. We help no one by continuing to put people in boxes, even if we are willing to assign equal value to each box.
    Hmm... partially, but I think in the main, more men display the former traits and women the latter. And thats OK! Just like with typology, it can be helpful to understand the inherent differences in temperament and type between people, so you can understand their behaviour and respond to them better. I dont think all women should be put into a feminine box, but denial of biology and natural instincts is not the answer either.

    Itd be cool to see a worldwide movement of women reclaiming their femininity, holding it aloft proudly. Theres a power to femininity which our cultural climate seems to ignore.

  5. #25
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Hmm... partially, but I think in the main, more men display the former traits and women the latter. And thats OK! Just like with typology, it can be helpful to understand the inherent differences in temperament and type between people, so you can understand their behaviour and respond to them better. I dont think all women should be put into a feminine box, but denial of biology and natural instincts is not the answer either.

    Itd be cool to see a worldwide movement of women reclaiming their femininity, holding it aloft proudly. Theres a power to femininity which our cultural climate seems to ignore.
    "Men display the former traits and women the latter" largely due to social pressure to do so. Witness the treatment still received by people who act opposite to these stereotypes. It is not OK if the behavior is constrained. Due to the pervasive nature of these social expectations, it is impossible to tell what is really inherent. There are enough exceptions of both genders that any gender-based biological drive is likely insignificant, and overshadowed by the many other factors that make us different from each other. We have been able to identify physiological bases for traits like introversion and extraversion, bases that show no link to gender. I imagine many other aspects of our makeup are hard-wired as well, in ways that don't relate to gender, much like skin or eye color. Extrapolating irresponsibly from what can be demonstrated on a physiological level serves no one. We can reclaim the value of those so-called "feminine traits" for everyone, without denying the reality of who we are as individuals.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    "Men display the former traits and women the latter" largely due to social pressure to do so. Witness the treatment still received by people who act opposite to these stereotypes. It is not OK if the behavior is constrained. Due to the pervasive nature of these social expectations, it is impossible to tell what is really inherent. There are enough exceptions of both genders that any gender-based biological drive is likely insignificant, and overshadowed by the many other factors that make us different from each other. We have been able to identify physiological bases for traits like introversion and extraversion, bases that show no link to gender. I imagine many other aspects of our makeup are hard-wired as well, in ways that don't relate to gender, much like skin or eye color. Extrapolating irresponsibly from what can be demonstrated on a physiological level serves no one. We can reclaim the value of those so-called "feminine traits" for everyone, without denying the reality of who we are as individuals.
    Have you heard of the Gender Equality Paradox? Basically, studies show that women in countries which promote gender equality the highest, (eg Scandinavia) actually score higher for feminine traits like sensitivity, nurturing, and reject typically male professions like engineering in greater numbers than elsewhere. The more freedom you give individuals, the more differentiation you see between men and women.

    Gender-equality paradox - Wikipedia

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Oestrogen, testosterone, penis, vagina... are you going to deny the existence of these entirely?
    If you actually read what I have been writing, you will see that I have not done so. These features have obvious ramifications, nost notably in health care (e.g. women get pap smears, men prostate exams), and our roles in reproduction. Extrapolating beyond this to behavior and character traits is not supported by the evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Have you heard of the gender equality paradox? Basically, studies show that women in countries which promote gender equality the highest, (eg Scandinavia) actually score higher for feminine traits like sensitivity, nurturing, and reject typically male professions like engineering in greater numbers than elsewhere. The more freedom you give individuals, the more differentiation you see between men and women.

    Gender-equality paradox - Wikipedia
    I have already addressed this several times in other threads. The demonstrated bias in self-reported data on traits and even behavior makes such correlations and conclusions highly suspect. Articles that address this supposed paradox responsibly describe the prevailing social and political conditions that contribute to outcomes in various societies.

    Why do you find it so difficult to accept that there are more significant factors than gender in shaping who we are as individuals? The traits you have been describing fall more along the T/F dichotomy. While that shows some gender disparity, it is not nearly large enough to suggest something truly inherent in our biology like possession of a penis/vagina which you reference above.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If you actually read what I have been writing, you will see that I have not done so. These features have obvious ramifications, nost notably in health care (e.g. women get pap smears, men prostate exams), and our roles in reproduction. Extrapolating beyond this to behavior and character traits is not supported by the evidence.


    I have already addressed this several times in other threads. The demonstrated bias in self-reported data on traits and even behavior makes such correlations and conclusions highly suspect. Articles that address this supposed paradox responsibly describe the prevailing social and political conditions that contribute to outcomes in various societies.

    Why do you find it so difficult to accept that there are more significant factors than gender in shaping who we are as individuals? The traits you have been describing fall more along the T/F dichotomy. While that shows some gender disparity, it is not nearly large enough to suggest something truly inherent like possession of a penis/vagina which you reference above.
    The whole point of the Gender Equality Paradox is that it takes social and political conditions out of the equation, by looking at the social pressure that respondees may be subject to. Its like a graph of social pressure v personality trait.

    And yes... the traits do fall along the T/F dichotomy. Men and women also tend to fall along this dichotomy.

    Did I claim that gender was the most significant factor in shaping who we are as individuals? I think its a very important factor, but not the most. Seeing as Im interested in MBTI, it seems obvious that Im a proponent of individual personality, and if Im going to put people into any boxes it'll be by their letter combination...

  9. #29
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    The whole point of the Gender Equality Paradox is that it takes social and political conditions out of the equation, by looking at the social pressure that respondees may be subject to. Its like a graph of social pressure v personality trait.
    Actually, it doesn't. It just describes the different pressures present in different societies. Until we find a society free of any such pressures, we cannot make reliable conclusions about what is inherent.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    And yes... the traits do fall along the T/F dichotomy. Men and women also tend to fall along this dichotomy.
    With as many as 40% of each gender having the "opposite" preference. Not very convincing for something related to biology. Imagine if 40% (or even 10%) of women had a penis! The number of people born with ambiguous genitalia is miniscule compared with this.


    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Did I claim that gender was the most significant factor in shaping who we are as individuals? I think its a very important factor, but not the most. Seeing as Im interested in MBTI, it seems obvious that Im a proponent of individual personality, and if Im going to put people into any boxes it'll be by their letter combination...
    You made no attempt to put gender into context/perspective, instead reiterating how biology determines character, personality, and observed behavior, all the while I was explaining the opposite. Not only is gender not the main factor, it is not even very important relative to others, except (and this is a huge exception) for the social and cultural programming we all internalize growing up. This is undeniable and accounts for most of the observed differences you reference, as well as for the demonstrated bias in direct reporting of the same.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Actually, it doesn't. It just describes the different pressures present in different societies. Until we find a society free of any such pressures, we cannot make reliable conclusions about what is inherent.


    With as many as 40% of each gender having the "opposite" preference. Not very convincing for something related to biology. Imagine if 40% (or even 10%) of women had a penis! The number of people born with ambiguous genitalia is miniscule compared with this.



    You made no attempt to put gender into context/perspective, instead reiterating how biology determines character, personality, and observed behavior, all the while I was explaining the opposite. Not only is gender not the main factor, it is not even very important relative to others, except (and this is a huge exception) for the social and cultural programming we all internalize growing up. This is undeniable and accounts for most of the observed differences you reference, as well as for the demonstrated bias in direct reporting of the same.
    If you think that studies looking at the correlation of social pressure with personality arent taking into account social pressure then a) you've failed to see the point of the studies... or b) no empirical data is empirical enough to satisfy you on this point, so I wont reference any more.

    Yes, plenty of men type as Feelers. I would be one of those. Thinkers can also be feminine tho. T and F dont always correspond with masculine and feminine, whereas men and women often do.

    And I certainly dont think social programming is "undeniable". If that were the case, I would be an aggressive T type who likes cars, or whatever the stereotype is. It seems evident to me that we are largely products of our nature.

    [Edit] I realise that me not showing certain masculine traits also works as a refutation of the idea of biological gender differences... I dont really fit the mould in a lot of ways. My point is I never felt any pressure to be one way or another: drawing from my own experience this idea of pervasive, insidious cultural programming affecting all aspects of a person's behaviour rings false.

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