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  1. #11
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    Because they are (generally) not given shit or told to change for crying or caring.
    I’ve gotten a lot of shit for not dong these things. It just isn’t me. Shouldn’t forced on someone one way or the other.
    “ they’re on our left, they’re on our right, they’re in front of us, they’re behind us…they can’t get away this time”

    "These voices scream at me "Let it go!"
    (never let go)
    This time I'm screaming back "No! No! No!"
    (Go on say no)
    My mind's made up, yeah my fear is gone
    Open my eyes now here I come: Oblivion."

  2. #12
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    It would help to realize that functions are all about complexes. It's complexes in the ego structure that carry the functions that make up out type. And we must remember that male and female are themselves complexes! They are "archetypes", which are collective "ruling patterns", and when an archetype fills up with personal experience, it becomes a person's "complex".

    So the way these "gender" complexes are set up; b
    ecause females are naturally designed to be the mothers, carrying and nurturing the young child, their natural focus has shifted more to the "humane" or "personal" side of life. (Judging what's "good" or "bad", and including being more in touch with the emotions). Since males then were the breadwinners, and the strong protectors, they became more focused on the "technical" or "impersonal", going simply by "correct" or "incorrect". This is all "instinctual", and as such, is apart of "general" rather than "special" function "use".
    The traditional roles of society formed around this. Even though modern society has been changing the roles and integrating both genders to the same sorts of careers and family tasks, the associations have stuck.

    So the typological complex (determining the "preferred" function) can parallel this, in which case the person will have a doubly strong leaning toward the personal or impersonal side of things. This may have been the default assignment, but of course, there are many exceptions. So between the gender and the type, one can push toward the personal, and the other toward the impersonal. This may cause some difficulty, depending on how strongly the gender roles are held to in their society.
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  3. #13
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    It would help to realize that functions are all about complexes. It's complexes in the ego structure that carry the functions that make up out type. And we must remember that male and female are themselves complexes! They are "archetypes", which are collective "ruling patterns", and when an archetype fills up with personal experience, it becomes a person's "complex".

    So the way these "gender" complexes are set up; b
    ecause females are naturally designed to be the mothers, carrying and nurturing the young child, their natural focus has shifted more to the "humane" or "personal" side of life. (Judging what's "good" or "bad", and including being more in touch with the emotions). Since males then were the breadwinners, and the strong protectors, they became more focused on the "technical" or "impersonal", going simply by "correct" or "incorrect". This is all "instinctual", and as such, is apart of "general" rather than "special" function "use".
    The traditional roles of society formed around this. Even though modern society has been changing the roles and integrating both genders to the same sorts of careers and family tasks, the associations have stuck.
    Everything beyond the highlighted is conjecture at best. In nature, mothers are the fiercest defenders, and women are credited with having developed agriculture, making them the literal breadwinners, and at least of equal value to men in providing nourishment. Both the male and the female task sets you are assigning benefit from subjective as well as objective treatment (emotion/logic, personal/impersonal, etc), and none of this requires a gender-based power imbalance. While traditional labor distributions were probably justified by the realities of life at the time, gender-based stereotypes or expectations about personal attributes and preferences are not, and appear to have been imposed externally, perhaps as a way of preventing the labor distributions from shifting when realties no longer supported them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So the typological complex (determining the "preferred" function) can parallel this, in which case the person will have a doubly strong leaning toward the personal or impersonal side of things. This may have been the default assignment, but of course, there are many exceptions. So between the gender and the type, one can push toward the personal, and the other toward the impersonal. This may cause some difficulty, depending on how strongly the gender roles are held to in their society.
    Your mention of male and female as archetypes is more realistic in the sense that any human can tap into them, as we all do in various combinations that are frequently not determined by our biological sex. Everything about the actual me has always "pushed toward" the impersonal and systemic, though I am unambiguously biologically female. Only external expectations have sometimes been otherwise, and those have been readily ignored. Either I am some special snowflake/have something significantly wrong with me, or those supposed biological imperatives are weak indeed. I suspect the latter, based on how many other people I run across who are similarly "pushed" toward ways of being that don't align with gender stereotypes.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  4. #14
    Moderator Yuu's Avatar
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    I hate children. I despise having to take care of people and I’m probably the most un-nurturing soul you could ever meet.

    But I’m probably just defective. It could not possibly be that human beings are individuals and a sum total if their environment and experiences.
    “ they’re on our left, they’re on our right, they’re in front of us, they’re behind us…they can’t get away this time”

    "These voices scream at me "Let it go!"
    (never let go)
    This time I'm screaming back "No! No! No!"
    (Go on say no)
    My mind's made up, yeah my fear is gone
    Open my eyes now here I come: Oblivion."

  5. #15
    Insane Visionary Kanra13's Avatar
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    Kinda seems to me mbti is nature and enneagram is nurture... However, I believe it can still be altered with personality disorders and trauma, most likely trauma that 'induces' personality disorders. By what degree I do not know. I am not the same as I use to be and I'm still trying to figure it out, and my co-morbidity confuses myself.

    ...Now I'm curious. How estrogen and Testosterone influences how the type or expressions might manifest. Or... Whatever influences it may have.

    Hmm.

    Wait... Being female and male. I often hear that ignorant stereotype of "woman are emotional" and "cry alot" and "men are not in touch with their emotions" and "don't show emotion" (except anger) and I know that's a bunch of bullshit. However, I wonder if there's a sliver to it. As estrogen and testosterone would somewhat point to that if there was a difference. Like there is a difference of male and female ENTP's apparently, as well as other types or so it 'appears'. Such things have been assumed before on other topics I've seen floating around. As I suppose at the very least being "female" makes you more likely to be emotional, and "male" more likely to be less emotional, but the thing also is that culture tends to blur in and influences every aspect of our life and even our personalities to some degree.

    Then there's the issue that men and woman both can call themselves neither male or female and just "they" or "them" so if they're identifying as neither then wtf then?

    Too many damn factors

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    Yeah, babies and kids are all a nuisance. I am also no caretaker type. Why I always knew I could never be a 2.
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  6. #16
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanra13 View Post
    Wait... Being female and male. I often hear that ignorant stereotype of "woman are emotional" and "cry alot" and "men are not in touch with their emotions" and "don't show emotion" (except anger) and I know that's a bunch of bullshit. However, I wonder if there's a sliver to it. As estrogen and testosterone would somewhat point to that if there was a difference. Like there is a difference of male and female ENTP's apparently, as well as other types or so it 'appears'. Such things have been assumed before on other topics I've seen floating around. As I suppose at the very least being "female" makes you more likely to be emotional, and "male" more likely to be less emotional, but the thing also is that culture tends to blur in and influences every aspect of our life and even our personalities to some degree.

    Then there's the issue that men and woman both can call themselves neither male or female and just "they" or "them" so if they're identifying as neither then wtf then?
    Treat everyone as an individual, that's what. I readily identify as female on purely biological grounds, but it doesn't say much more about me. I don't "feel" especially feminine. Then again, I don't feel masculine either. I just feel like me. If you want evidence of the ignorance of that assumption about men, women, and emotion, just look at men watching a sporting event. Emotion is part of the human condition. If we stop penalizing men for expressing emotions, I suspect that distinction will largely go away.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  7. #17
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    Observing the general vibe in this thread, I just wanted to point out that the association of femininity with weakness is rooted in patriachal values. The idea that physical bravery, dominance and rationality is "good" is based on the same prejudice that sentimentality, softness and submissiveness is "bad". I think its important people detach themselves from social prejudice and see that all traits have their own value.

  8. #18
    Valse du Souvenirs Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Observing the general vibe in this thread, I just wanted to point out that the association of femininity with weakness is rooted in patriachal values. The idea that physical bravery, dominance and rationality is "good" is based on the same prejudice that sentimentality, softness and submissiveness is "bad". I think its important people detach themselves from social prejudice and see that all traits have their own value.
    This, as well as it is important to create a distinction between a choice of softness and people just being doormats. Mothers, for example (as it has been brought up) are very patient in raising their children, even if they can be little gremlins. If that is not mental and emotional fortitude and a form of incredible big-heartedness and compassion (strength and braveness, you could say), I don't know what is. I know I'd mentally deck a crying kid repeatedly in the face not be able to bear that because my heart just isn't as big.

    Then again those words sometimes get lost in the nuance of culture and conversation and bloody semantics. Using strength as an example, there's that concept of what true strength is, some think it's brute force (in which masculinity 'wins out'), some think its restraint (in which feminity 'wins out'). So, the argument to divide the genders based off such qualities really is moot. That being said, I'm pretty sure that people judge say, softness as weakness because it is measured specifically against aggressiveness, in which softness is an absence of aggressiveness, and gets interpret as weakness. That really is not necessarily a sign of weakness at all. Extend this understanding to other traits, and you're golden. As tommyc said, all traits have their own value, positive or not.
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  9. #19
    Valse du Souvenirs Earl Grey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuu View Post
    I’ve gotten a lot of shit for not dong these things. It just isn’t me. Shouldn’t forced on someone one way or the other.
    Something I've always wondered is what exactly does this kind of gesture (telling people to show emotion) achieves.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixaerus View Post
    This, as well as it is important to create a distinction between a choice of softness and people just being doormats. Mothers, for example (as it has been brought up) are very patient in raising their children, even if they can be little gremlins. If that is not mental and emotional fortitude and a form of incredible big-heartedness and compassion (strength and braveness, you could say), I don't know what is. I know I'd mentally deck a crying kid repeatedly in the face not be able to bear that because my heart just isn't as big.

    Then again those words sometimes get lost in the nuance of culture and conversation and bloody semantics. Using strength as an example, there's that concept of what true strength is, some think it's brute force (in which masculinity 'wins out'), some think its restraint (in which feminity 'wins out'). So, the argument to divide the genders based off such qualities really is moot. That being said, I'm pretty sure that people judge say, softness as weakness because it is measured specifically against aggressiveness, in which softness is an absence of aggressiveness, and gets interpret as weakness. That really is not necessarily a sign of weakness at all. Extend this understanding to other traits, and you're golden. As tommyc said, all traits have their own value, positive or not.
    Absolutely. Eg I see compassion as a sign of strength, whereas aggressiveness is often a sign of weakness. Secure v Insecure.

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