• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Useless fluffy wubbie stuff?

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Okay so I've noted whilst reading through a couple of MBTI books that they seem to almost be useless after a while. The reason for this, in my opinion, is that they concentrate quite heavily on the positive side of a personality type.

I'm not sure about other's but I tend to find analysis of a types flaws, the various traps they may get caught in and the general areas for improvement, much more helpful both in typing people and helping them in general and yet there seems to be less information on this than on why it's "okay" to be your type, something I've never considered a particular problem despite being the only P in a family of Js.

Do you have the same problem?
Does anyone have any good sources?
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
I don't know of any sources of websites describing the negative side of types much. With the exception of that MBTI type correlation to various stats... forgotten where I came across it though.

I think you'll have more luck having people make a list of faults here and take it from there.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I don't know of any sources of websites describing the negative side of types much. With the exception of that MBTI type correlation to various stats... forgotten where I came across it though.

I think you'll have more luck having people make a list of faults here and take it from there.
Well true but most of them are more of the style of "this type has problems with that type because one does this and the other does that" than there would be "this type should watch out for this because they are prone to do this".

If you catch my drift.
 

Dwigie

New member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
658
MBTI Type
INFP
Okay so I've noted whilst reading through a couple of MBTI books that they seem to almost be useless after a while. The reason for this, in my opinion, is that they concentrate quite heavily on the positive side of a personality type.
:steam: That annoys me so much
I'm not sure about other's but I tend to find analysis of a types flaws, the various traps they may get caught in and the general areas for improvement, much more helpful both in typing people and helping them in general and yet there seems to be less information on this than on why it's "okay" to be your type, something I've never considered a particular problem despite being the only P in a family of Js.
Agree with you :yes:

Do you have the same problem?
:yes:, when I read the problems of infjs I can relate much more than the "qualities", that's actually what helped me make a difference between infp and infj because I was extremely confused.
Does anyone have any good sources?
Try these descriptions and tell me if it sounds good to you:

INTP Personal Growth

http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/intp.htm(skip the "fluff" at the end, you'll know where it is.)

INTP - Jung Type Descriptions

INTP - On A Team

So I'm not the only one who thought that the kersey temperament was BS and seemed very fluffy ?:cheese:
I went on the personal growth part and in my opinion that's where it all starts to make sense.
I got a feeling that you probably already read all these descriptions though.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
You mean to say that you don't get enough working examples of the dark sides of different personality types around here? :devil:
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
It's an inevitable consequence of what Christopher Lasch termed "The Culture of Narcissism"; where essentially self-esteem and "feeling good" about yourself are among the most important concepts promoted.

Of course the problem is that one never really gets a full honest picture of themselves, and ironically it leads to more anxiety and depression. It means accepting the person you want to be, rather than accepting the person you really are.

When I read about the flaws of INFJs, I can't help but laugh because they're so true. I was rolling out my chair when I glanced through the INFJ Hate Thread.

It's easy and fun to laugh at yourself when you're secure in understanding who you really are, and accepting yourself for who you are.
 

Jack Flak

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
9,098
MBTI Type
type
That's the standard angle, Xander. Have you noticed they're in the Self-Help section, and not the Psychology section? I have.

They want to sell to laypeople, not professionals, and they'll get farther with complimentary individualization than derogation.
 

Dwigie

New member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
658
MBTI Type
INFP
I just strolled down that hate thread, thanks peguy...maybe xander should find an intp hate thread( or better start one :p) or why the why INT sucks one?
 
S

Sniffles

Guest
I just strolled down that hate thread, thanks peguy...maybe xander should find an intp hate thread( or better start one :p) or why the why INT sucks one?

If none exists, we could always create one. :tongue:
 

edcoaching

New member
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
752
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
7
Was That Really Me? by Naomi Quenk is about eruptions of the inferior.

Lots of teh coaching books like Differentiated Coaching and Introduction to Type and Coaching have information on common flaws

Working Together by Isachsen and Behrens points out all kinds of flaws

Sundial by Brydans is all about type and disease

Three Keys to Self-Understanding by Wyman weds the Enneagram with type to show how people can learn to take control of their lives,

SoulTypes by Hirsh and Kise is mainly on spirituality but has stuff on how each type spirals out of control.

Jung's Psychological Types probably has the most negative info since he derived it via working with people who weren't mentally healthy.

There's also the little fact that type is about normal differences among normal people, and every single type can be arrogant/stubborn/bossy/insecure/etc. depending on nurture/roles/difficulties. Because it's used so much with teams a lot of the resources were developed in keeping with the idea that giving people ammunition to tear each other down is generally not helpful...
 

edcoaching

New member
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
752
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
7
That's the standard angle, Xander. Have you noticed they're in the Self-Help section, and not the Psychology section? I have.

They want to sell to laypeople, not professionals, and they'll get farther with complimentary individualization than derogation.

What they'll be selling to professionals is Step III. That has a clinical side. The regular instrument doesn't.
 

Jae Rae

Free-Rangin' Librarian
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
979
MBTI Type
INFJ
Was That Really Me? by Naomi Quenk is about eruptions of the inferior.

Lots of teh coaching books like Differentiated Coaching and Introduction to Type and Coaching have information on common flaws

Working Together by Isachsen and Behrens points out all kinds of flaws

Sundial by Brydans is all about type and disease

Three Keys to Self-Understanding by Wyman weds the Enneagram with type to show how people can learn to take control of their lives,

SoulTypes by Hirsh and Kise is mainly on spirituality but has stuff on how each type spirals out of control.

Jung's Psychological Types probably has the most negative info since he derived it via working with people who weren't mentally healthy.

Thanks for the reading list. :D

First book - tons of great information and examples.
 

Eric B

ⒺⓉⒷ
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
3,621
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
548
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Okay so I've noted whilst reading through a couple of MBTI books that they seem to almost be useless after a while. The reason for this, in my opinion, is that they concentrate quite heavily on the positive side of a personality type.

I'm not sure about other's but I tend to find analysis of a types flaws, the various traps they may get caught in and the general areas for improvement, much more helpful both in typing people and helping them in general and yet there seems to be less information on this than on why it's "okay" to be your type, something I've never considered a particular problem despite being the only P in a family of Js.

Do you have the same problem?
Does anyone have any good sources?

This is precisely what I noticed when I first was introduced to the Keirsey test, and then tried to compare both KTS and MBTI types to the FIRO-based APS temperament system I was familiar with. FIRO itself actually leans a bit towards the negative. (though for you; "People Gatherer-Matcher-Optimist" is positive; some of the other names are quite negative!) The APS and LaHaye temperament systems are quite balanced in strengths and weaknesses.

Then, everyone's trying to compare MBTI with Enneagram, which is the opposite negative extreme.
It was the Lifexplore page that gave me a good glimpse of the negative side, and that personalitypage site is good with that too,
 

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
6,743
MBTI Type
ESFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx
I had this same kind of feeling when reading Please Understand Me. He makes everybody sound so intelligent and healthy. I was thinking I should write a book called "Personalities of Stupid People" ;)
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Does anyone have any good sources?
Try these descriptions and tell me if it sounds good to you:

INTP Personal Growth

http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/intp.htm(skip the "fluff" at the end, you'll know where it is.)

INTP - Jung Type Descriptions

INTP - On A Team
Thanks. I'll go browse that lot when I get chance. It's somehow more interesting to me to watch out for the flaws than to pat myself on the back for my strengths.
So I'm not the only one who thought that the kersey temperament was BS and seemed very fluffy ?:cheese:
I went on the personal growth part and in my opinion that's where it all starts to make sense.
I got a feeling that you probably already read all these descriptions though.
I've never read into kersey myself but yeah the self help bits are usually more revealing to me than all the strength analysis in the world. I think I see flaws easier than I do strengths.
You mean to say that you don't get enough working examples of the dark sides of different personality types around here? :devil:
That's psychosis not psychometry :newwink:
It's an inevitable consequence of what Christopher Lasch termed "The Culture of Narcissism"; where essentially self-esteem and "feeling good" about yourself are among the most important concepts promoted.

Of course the problem is that one never really gets a full honest picture of themselves, and ironically it leads to more anxiety and depression. It means accepting the person you want to be, rather than accepting the person you really are.
Precisely. Ignorance is only bliss if your brain doesn't keep trying to become aware.
That's the standard angle, Xander. Have you noticed they're in the Self-Help section, and not the Psychology section? I have.

They want to sell to laypeople, not professionals, and they'll get farther with complimentary individualization than derogation.
It does appear that most of the writing is more inclined towards being happy where you are and recognising that "you're cool too" than actually improving your lot.
Was That Really Me? by Naomi Quenk is about eruptions of the inferior.

Lots of teh coaching books like Differentiated Coaching and Introduction to Type and Coaching have information on common flaws

Working Together by Isachsen and Behrens points out all kinds of flaws

Sundial by Brydans is all about type and disease

Three Keys to Self-Understanding by Wyman weds the Enneagram with type to show how people can learn to take control of their lives,

SoulTypes by Hirsh and Kise is mainly on spirituality but has stuff on how each type spirals out of control.

Jung's Psychological Types probably has the most negative info since he derived it via working with people who weren't mentally healthy.

There's also the little fact that type is about normal differences among normal people, and every single type can be arrogant/stubborn/bossy/insecure/etc. depending on nurture/roles/difficulties. Because it's used so much with teams a lot of the resources were developed in keeping with the idea that giving people ammunition to tear each other down is generally not helpful...
I'm definitely hunting down that Wyman book. I've often wondered about a holistic theory including both the enneagram and the MBTI. Do they include positive and negative feedback too?

As for providing ammo, I think that people need to quit the nanny approach. I very much doubt that nuclear physics books are riddled with sidebars telling the reader that it's mean to nuke people for example. At some point the writer has to release responsibility for interpretation and use to the reader.
This is precisely what I noticed when I first was introduced to the Keirsey test, and then tried to compare both KTS and MBTI types to the FIRO-based APS temperament system I was familiar with. FIRO itself actually leans a bit towards the negative. (though for you; "People Gatherer-Matcher-Optimist" is positive; some of the other names are quite negative!) The APS and LaHaye temperament systems are quite balanced in strengths and weaknesses.

Then, everyone's trying to compare MBTI with Enneagram, which is the opposite negative extreme.
It was the Lifexplore page that gave me a good glimpse of the negative side, and that personalitypage site is good with that too,
That's what I found when looking into the enneagram. It's complete with warnings and possible areas for growth. The MBTI kinda brushes over all of that most of the time in the aim of making people feel better for being who they are.

Not so sure about the FIRO-B though. Surely if your need for inclusion is low, for example, then you really won't care that you will be labelled as someone who doesn't really care about being included unless your deluding yourself.
I had this same kind of feeling when reading Please Understand Me. He makes everybody sound so intelligent and healthy. I was thinking I should write a book called "Personalities of Stupid People" ;)
That would be a book I'd read.
 

mlittrell

New member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
1,387
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
9w1
the various traps

IT'S A TRAP!!!

-Admiral Ackbar

in terms of the question(s)/statment(s), ya there really isn't enough out there on the negative sides of personalities. my only problem with the negative side is that there shouldn't be a positive side either (at least not much). i consider keirseys versions of the types to be perfect because he equals the goods and the bads out, but still keeps the +/-'s to a minimum. he more points out how each type thinks, processes, and deals with the world, and that is what MBTI SHOULD do. if you point out too many positives and negatives then you start to get into stereotypes/generalities that might be true for one person and completely false to another. there are so many factors behaviorally that you cant pinpoint them on type; the two main factors that come to mind are biotemperament and nurture (enneagram).
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
Okay so I've noted whilst reading through a couple of MBTI books that they seem to almost be useless after a while. The reason for this, in my opinion, is that they concentrate quite heavily on the positive side of a personality type.

I'm not sure about other's but I tend to find analysis of a types flaws, the various traps they may get caught in and the general areas for improvement, much more helpful both in typing people and helping them in general and yet there seems to be less information on this than on why it's "okay" to be your type, something I've never considered a particular problem despite being the only P in a family of Js.

Do you have the same problem?
Does anyone have any good sources?
Naomi L. Quenk Beside Ourselves.

This book describes how the shadow behaves... and why... in excellent detail.
I can't go without it.
It's an excellent resource.

I use it mostly for the suggestions she gives for returning to "equilibrium" as she calls it, after a shadow episode - which she refers to as being "beside ourselves".

Also in Do What You Are, by Barron and Tieger they list every type "Possible Blind Spots" in a very diplomatic non-condemning way.
 

Fiver

New member
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
216
MBTI Type
ENTP
I'm curious. When you find your blind spots, how will you use that information?
 

INTJMom

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Messages
5,413
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w4
I'm curious. When you find your blind spots, how will you use that information?
I suppose it is only useful to those people who are interested in improving themselves.
On the other hand, because I am so critical of myself, it helped me to identify which type I was - by the faults instead of the virtues.

In Do What You Are, each paragraph in which a "possible blind spot" is described, ends with a one sentence suggestion on how you can work on improving that part of your tendency so that it is not such a detriment.

I used to be really hard on myself - read: my husband used to complain at me a lot - about my tendency to get involved in a project and let all my other responsibilities fall by the wayside. Once I discovered this was a tendency of INTJs it did a couple of things for me:


  • I learned to accept myself the way I was and not be so hard on myself for something that was part of the whole package that was "me".
  • I learned that since that is a tendency, I need to make extra effort to avoid getting overly involved in a project to the detriment of my duties. (Conceivably, I could have done this apart from understanding it is a blind spot for me, but somehow knowing it's a blind spot makes me not want to do it as much.)

So that's a couple of things.
 
Top