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Belief in Free Will and Type Correlation?

raskol

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This would only be the case if they are accepting free will on the basis of a traditional dogma, as you seemed to link it to.
Whereas Christianity can be dogmatic, Western tradition is pliable. Moreover, Si is firmly tied to tradition and duty, while one manifestation of Fe is attachment to objective opinions. These are indicators that will predict greater attachment to tradition and, in turn, to concepts such as free will.

But this notion doesn't sit right with me; will may even be most strongly linked to Ni, though perhaps also not.
Yes, Ni relates to willpower, but that's beyond the question at hand. Rather than going in line with traditional religious systems, Ni is open to visions that resist conformity.

You may be right about an anti-correlation between belief in free will and strength of the Thinking preference, but I feel that fundamentally this is something that type doesn't cover.
Then let's agree to disagree.
 

Pionart

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Ok here's what I've gathered: the notion of free will is quite easy, I think, to justify from a values perspective, in that it can give a person motivation and a sense of hope, but comparatively more difficult to justify from a logical standpoint.

Hence, there would be a correlation between belief in free will and a preference for Feeling over Thinking.

I'm not convinced that there would be a correlation with Si, but I will keep that possibility open.
 

tommyc

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Ok here's what I've gathered: the notion of free will is quite easy, I think, to justify from a values perspective, in that it can give a person motivation and a sense of hope, but comparatively more difficult to justify from a logical standpoint.

Hence, there would be a correlation between belief in free will and a preference for Feeling over Thinking.

I'm not convinced that there would be a correlation with Si, but I will keep that possibility open.

Im seeing it slightly differently, altho the outcome may be the same. I think the key factor of belief in free will is one's level of internal detachment (basically awareness of mind). Types most prone to/capable of internal detachment/awareness of mind? My guess is the more rational of the Ni users - T-friendly INJs, ENJs, and ISTP. (Perhaps not SPs in general. From my own experience with an ESFP stepdad, detachment is antithetical to that type.)
 

Peter Deadpan

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I'm not sure how anyone can NOT think we each have free will. I'm an NFP double-withdrawn type, so not really an extrovert...
 

Totenkindly

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I'm not sure how anyone can NOT think we each have free will. I'm an NFP double-withdrawn type, so not really an extrovert...

Because none of our decisions are made in a vacuum purely out of free will? Even who "we" are -- the consciousness making the decision -- is a collection of past experience, internal bias, a product of one's surroundings and what has come before.

To state it another way, it's kind of quasi-choice -- we never have 100% unlimited choice with no context or external influence. We're making choices in relationship with inner inclinations we might not understand, external forces that shape us, and past experiences that have influenced as, as well as a preset list of decisions that we are aware of due to context (versus decisions that we never think of and might not really be on the table).

Within that limited muddled selection of options, we do feel like we are making a "choice" and life generally does go better when we actively do make choices and take responsibility, even if it's not clear-cut.
 

Peter Deadpan

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Because none of our decisions are made in a vacuum purely out of free will? Even who "we" are -- the consciousness making the decision -- is a collection of past experience, internal bias, a product of one's surroundings and what has come before.

To state it another way, it's kind of quasi-choice -- we never have 100% unlimited choice with no context or external influence. We're making choices in relationship with inner inclinations we might not understand, external forces that shape us, and past experiences that have influenced as, as well as a preset list of decisions that we are aware of due to context (versus decisions that we never think of and might not really be on the table).

Within that limited muddled selection of options, we do feel like we are making a "choice" and life generally does go better when we actively do make choices and take responsibility, even if it's not clear-cut.

You can choose to do literally whatever you want to do. That's free will. That is NOT to say that there won't be potential consequences for your decisions.

You have free will. I have free will. Everyone gets a free will. Free Willy.
 

Snow as White

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i think the reality of free will is that there are caveats to it created by how we utilize our free will. almost as if ironically the use of free will erodes free will. choices become habits become whom you are.
 

cascadeco

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You can choose to do literally whatever you want to do. That's free will. That is NOT to say that there won't be potential consequences for your decisions.

You have free will. I have free will. Everyone gets a free will. Free Willy.

True.

I always thought those who argued against free will, though, did so due to this: We are who we are. Right now, we are who we are based on every previous choice made and every aspect of our DNA. In other words, it's impossible for us to NOT be who we are - thus is not everything predetermined. We were born. Thus of course at this moment in time everything is as it is. (Don't know if that makes sense - I'd always assumed that was what people arguing against it were thinking of / where they were coming from). imo it becomes almost a semantics issue, as many things in philosophy seem to boil down to.
 

Pionart

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Just believe in free will. If you're right, you believe the truth, if you're wrong, you had no other choice.
 

raskol

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imo it becomes almost a semantics issue, as many things in philosophy seem to boil down to.
Just believe in free will. If you're right, you believe the truth, if you're wrong, you had no other choice.
What you and others are missing is that this isn't a debate on free will. Like semantics, any such discussion is quite useless.

What matters here is the correlation between a belief in free will and type. What, then, are the key predictive features of this belief? For Westerners, it correlates with the appeal to tradition (Si) and social pressure (Fe), especially when combined. Furthermore, since this article of faith requires the suspension of logic and reason, it is safe to say that thinking types are likelier to find it unappealing.
 

cascadeco

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What you and others are missing is that this isn't a debate on free will. Like semantics, any such discussion is quite useless.

What matters here is the correlation between a belief in free will and type. What, then, are the key predictive features of this belief? For Westerners, it correlates with the appeal to tradition (Si) and social pressure (Fe), especially when combined. Furthermore, since this article of faith requires the suspension of logic and reason, it is safe to say that thinking types are likelier to find it unappealing.

Well I at least wasn't even thinking about mbti at all with my statement, nor do I really care what function people think applies to the concept; I was just speaking on the larger subject itself/ basically only addressing Peter Deadpan's comment.
 

Pionart

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What you and others are missing is that this isn't a debate on free will. Like semantics, any such discussion is quite useless.

What matters here is the correlation between a belief in free will and type. What, then, are the key predictive features of this belief? For Westerners, it correlates with the appeal to tradition (Si) and social pressure (Fe), especially when combined. Furthermore, since this article of faith requires the suspension of logic and reason, it is safe to say that thinking types are likelier to find it unappealing.

What you may have missed is that I just provided a logical vindication for the belief in free will. Now, if belief in free will can be logically vindicated, it follows that a Thinker needn't find the idea unappealing.

So if your guess as to correlation is based on speculative theorising, perhaps along the lines of belief in free will not being logical, then I question this. If your claim follows empirically, then what's the evidence?
 

tommyc

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What you and others are missing is that this isn't a debate on free will. Like semantics, any such discussion is quite useless.

What matters here is the correlation between a belief in free will and type. What, then, are the key predictive features of this belief? For Westerners, it correlates with the appeal to tradition (Si) and social pressure (Fe), especially when combined. Furthermore, since this article of faith requires the suspension of logic and reason, it is safe to say that thinking types are likelier to find it unappealing.

Actually I was kinda hoping if enough people simply gave their personal opinion on free will we could see if patterns emerged, re MBTI.

I agree with your reasoning on Fe and Si, especially in a free will- friendly culture as ours, but it presupposes that the concept is purely externally imposed. The point I believe Legion has made, and personally displayed, is that for a lot of people the idea of free will just feels natural. Indeed, science is edging further and further towards determinism so free will may become more of a personal inclination as time progresses.
 

Snow as White

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What you and others are missing is that this isn't a debate on free will. Like semantics, any such discussion is quite useless.

What matters here is the correlation between a belief in free will and type. What, then, are the key predictive features of this belief? For Westerners, it correlates with the appeal to tradition (Si) and social pressure (Fe), especially when combined. Furthermore, since this article of faith requires the suspension of logic and reason, it is safe to say that thinking types are likelier to find it unappealing.

I didn't feel like it was being missed since it doesn't seem like a real thing. correlation isn't causation and all that stuff.

For Westerners the concept of Free Will may be framed from the Bible story but it doesn't mean that that means something. I also find it mind boggling the amount of type stereotypes you are employing here in thinking that only F types are going to subscribe to the hoodoo voodoo of faith since it goes against "logic and reason". completely not understanding the F-ness isn't some nebulous giggling cheerleader with blond extensions who's anxious to make cookies for the boys.

For every atheist T friend I have, I have an F friend who's also atheist. Same goes with spiritual/religious.

Type isn't some catch all dream catcher for one way to be void of free will. lol.
 

raskol

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What you may have missed is that I just provided a logical vindication for the belief in free will. Now, if belief in free will can be logically vindicated, it follows that a Thinker needn't find the idea unappealing.
Two brief comments to straighten out the fallacies:
1. What you presented was a faith-based vindication of free will, assuming causality could be an illusion, which requires the suspension of logic and reason.
2. Correlations point to a pattern, which means that outliers are always expected.

So if your guess as to correlation is based on speculative theorising, perhaps along the lines of belief in free will not being logical, then I question this. If your claim follows empirically, then what's the evidence?
In this study, the following pattern appeared with regard to faith:

Nonbelievers:
INTJ Te aux (23.1%)
ENTJ Te dom (14.6%)
INTP Ti dom (11.1%)
ISTP Ti dom (9.9%)

Unsure:
ISTP Ti dom (19.2%)
INTP Ti dom (16.2%)
ENTP Ti aux (14.6%)
ENTJ Te dom (14.6%)

Belief in a "higher power":
ENFJ Fe dom (91.4%)
ESFJ Fe dom/Si aux (90.2%)
ENFP Ti PoLR (89.8%)
ISFJ Si dom/Fe aux (89.7%)

The results are also indicative of metaphysical outlook, in the embrace or rejection of a "higher power" or "higher truth" that will grant you the freedom to fully dispense with causality.

Actually I was kinda hoping if enough people simply gave their personal opinion on free will we could see if patterns emerged, re MBTI.
Then you could have chosen philosophy instead of the MBTI subforum. For what it's worth, I reject both metaphysical freedom (too Christian) and metaphysical determinism (too Newtonian). If anything, I assume that a probabilistic ontology is the most reasonable answer, but even that is a provisional stance subject for review.

I agree with your reasoning on Fe and Si, especially in a free will- friendly culture as ours, but it presupposes that the concept is purely externally imposed.
Free will is by default externally imposed. It is a so-called received opinion, which is something people will disclose without considering its origin. Those who have a unique take on metaphysical freedom are by definition distancing themselves from it.

The point I believe Legion has made, and personally displayed, is that for a lot of people the idea of free will just feels natural. Indeed, science is edging further and further towards determinism so free will may become more of a personal inclination as time progresses.
As you stated, it feels natural. As such, his conclusion didn't arise through logical analysis or objective reasoning. We don't have access to the truth, yet the way we express ourselves--be it through feeling, experience, or thinking--is indicative of type. This, in turn, forms a predictive pattern as to how we relate to metaphysical concepts.

I didn't feel like it was being missed since it doesn't seem like a real thing. correlation isn't causation and all that stuff.
Had you cared to read the thread, you would have seen that no absolute conclusions have been drawn. The correlation points to a higher probability of a certain outcome.

For Westerners the concept of Free Will may be framed from the Bible story but it doesn't mean that that means something.
Then I'll gladly inform you that culture is the primary carrier of ancient memes, from doomsday scenarios to assumptions of metaphysical freedom. Non-Western cultures don't latch on to the false dichotomy of free will and determinism. Rather, it takes a Western mindset, molded by millennia of Christian articles of faith and millennia of Aristotelian (and then centuries of Newtonian) mechanics.

I also find it mind boggling the amount of type stereotypes you are employing here in thinking that only F types are going to subscribe to the hoodoo voodoo of faith since it goes against "logic and reason". completely not understanding the F-ness isn't some nebulous giggling cheerleader with blond extensions who's anxious to make cookies for the boys.
As stated above, it is likelier for thinking types to reject faith-based metaphysics. That's the pattern.

For every atheist T friend I have, I have an F friend who's also atheist. Same goes with spiritual/religious.
You should know that anecdotal accounts are ultimately irrelevant.

Type isn't some catch all dream catcher for one way to be void of free will. lol.
If there is any practical application to typology, then it is found in the predictive patterns expressed by types and their function stack. If we reach a point where the types are behaviorally indistinguishable from each other, then typology is reduced to mere astrology.
 

tommyc

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Ha I admire your energy Raskol... altho not every conversation need be a battle. Dont always have to come out swinging.

If anything, I assume that a probabilistic ontology is the most reasonable answer

Im curious as to your personal view on free will. "Probabilistic ontology" - could you elaborate?
 

Pionart

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raskol said:
As you stated, it feels natural. As such, his conclusion didn't arise through logical analysis or objective reasoning. We don't have access to the truth, yet the way we express ourselves--be it through feeling, experience, or thinking--is indicative of type. This, in turn, forms a predictive pattern as to how we relate to metaphysical concepts.

The term "feels" in "feels natural" is not the same as term "feeling" as in "the Feeling function", not to say that the correlation with Feeling does or does not exist.

Additionally, the idea of something seeming "natural" is anti-thetical to the idea of it being a "received opinion". If the dichotomy being discussed wasn't present in non-Western societies, that may be because free will is something we believe in innately without needing to give it any thought.

After all, why question that we have freedom when it is so integral to being in the world? =D
 
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