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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    This would only be the case if they are accepting free will on the basis of a traditional dogma, as you seemed to link it to.
    Whereas Christianity can be dogmatic, Western tradition is pliable. Moreover, Si is firmly tied to tradition and duty, while one manifestation of Fe is attachment to objective opinions. These are indicators that will predict greater attachment to tradition and, in turn, to concepts such as free will.

    But this notion doesn't sit right with me; will may even be most strongly linked to Ni, though perhaps also not.
    Yes, Ni relates to willpower, but that's beyond the question at hand. Rather than going in line with traditional religious systems, Ni is open to visions that resist conformity.

    You may be right about an anti-correlation between belief in free will and strength of the Thinking preference, but I feel that fundamentally this is something that type doesn't cover.
    Then let's agree to disagree.
    --- indefinite hiatus ---

  2. #22
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    Ok here's what I've gathered: the notion of free will is quite easy, I think, to justify from a values perspective, in that it can give a person motivation and a sense of hope, but comparatively more difficult to justify from a logical standpoint.

    Hence, there would be a correlation between belief in free will and a preference for Feeling over Thinking.

    I'm not convinced that there would be a correlation with Si, but I will keep that possibility open.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Ok here's what I've gathered: the notion of free will is quite easy, I think, to justify from a values perspective, in that it can give a person motivation and a sense of hope, but comparatively more difficult to justify from a logical standpoint.

    Hence, there would be a correlation between belief in free will and a preference for Feeling over Thinking.

    I'm not convinced that there would be a correlation with Si, but I will keep that possibility open.
    Im seeing it slightly differently, altho the outcome may be the same. I think the key factor of belief in free will is one's level of internal detachment (basically awareness of mind). Types most prone to/capable of internal detachment/awareness of mind? My guess is the more rational of the Ni users - T-friendly INJs, ENJs, and ISTP. (Perhaps not SPs in general. From my own experience with an ESFP stepdad, detachment is antithetical to that type.)

  4. #24
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how anyone can NOT think we each have free will. I'm an NFP double-withdrawn type, so not really an extrovert...
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    I'm not sure how anyone can NOT think we each have free will. I'm an NFP double-withdrawn type, so not really an extrovert...
    Because none of our decisions are made in a vacuum purely out of free will? Even who "we" are -- the consciousness making the decision -- is a collection of past experience, internal bias, a product of one's surroundings and what has come before.

    To state it another way, it's kind of quasi-choice -- we never have 100% unlimited choice with no context or external influence. We're making choices in relationship with inner inclinations we might not understand, external forces that shape us, and past experiences that have influenced as, as well as a preset list of decisions that we are aware of due to context (versus decisions that we never think of and might not really be on the table).

    Within that limited muddled selection of options, we do feel like we are making a "choice" and life generally does go better when we actively do make choices and take responsibility, even if it's not clear-cut.
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  6. #26
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totenkindly View Post
    Because none of our decisions are made in a vacuum purely out of free will? Even who "we" are -- the consciousness making the decision -- is a collection of past experience, internal bias, a product of one's surroundings and what has come before.

    To state it another way, it's kind of quasi-choice -- we never have 100% unlimited choice with no context or external influence. We're making choices in relationship with inner inclinations we might not understand, external forces that shape us, and past experiences that have influenced as, as well as a preset list of decisions that we are aware of due to context (versus decisions that we never think of and might not really be on the table).

    Within that limited muddled selection of options, we do feel like we are making a "choice" and life generally does go better when we actively do make choices and take responsibility, even if it's not clear-cut.
    You can choose to do literally whatever you want to do. That's free will. That is NOT to say that there won't be potential consequences for your decisions.

    You have free will. I have free will. Everyone gets a free will. Free Willy.
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  7. #27
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    i think the reality of free will is that there are caveats to it created by how we utilize our free will. almost as if ironically the use of free will erodes free will. choices become habits become whom you are.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    You can choose to do literally whatever you want to do. That's free will. That is NOT to say that there won't be potential consequences for your decisions.

    You have free will. I have free will. Everyone gets a free will. Free Willy.
    True.

    I always thought those who argued against free will, though, did so due to this: We are who we are. Right now, we are who we are based on every previous choice made and every aspect of our DNA. In other words, it's impossible for us to NOT be who we are - thus is not everything predetermined. We were born. Thus of course at this moment in time everything is as it is. (Don't know if that makes sense - I'd always assumed that was what people arguing against it were thinking of / where they were coming from). imo it becomes almost a semantics issue, as many things in philosophy seem to boil down to.
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  9. #29
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    Just believe in free will. If you're right, you believe the truth, if you're wrong, you had no other choice.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    imo it becomes almost a semantics issue, as many things in philosophy seem to boil down to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Just believe in free will. If you're right, you believe the truth, if you're wrong, you had no other choice.
    What you and others are missing is that this isn't a debate on free will. Like semantics, any such discussion is quite useless.

    What matters here is the correlation between a belief in free will and type. What, then, are the key predictive features of this belief? For Westerners, it correlates with the appeal to tradition (Si) and social pressure (Fe), especially when combined. Furthermore, since this article of faith requires the suspension of logic and reason, it is safe to say that thinking types are likelier to find it unappealing.
    --- indefinite hiatus ---

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