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Belief in Free Will and Type Correlation?

raskol

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Im curious as to your personal view on free will. "Probabilistic ontology" - could you elaborate?
I'll be brief, but think of it as a Bayesian model in which randomness and uncertainty are embedded with causal relations. As such, this outlook doesn't impart any limits on my decision-making in everyday life, and I'd be ready to abandon it at second's notice were I to find a better explanation.

The term "feels" in "feels natural" is not the same as term "feeling" as in "the Feeling function", not to say that the correlation with Feeling does or does not exist.
What matters is that your answer wasn't logically deduced. Expanding on that point, though, the difference between an intuited and an emoted answer lies in the separation of a private vision from a received opinion.

Once again, the value and usefulness of Jungian typology is captured in its predictive scope. I think it merits the various theories that we can look to strong Fe paired with Si, or repressed Ti, and expect a pattern of behavior on a collective basis. The aspects that can't be empirically validated are just not that interesting.

Additionally, the idea of something seeming "natural" is anti-thetical to the idea of it being a "received opinion".
Agreed, but if and only if taken at face value. What we shouldn't overlook, however, is that the expressions "[X] is natural" or "nature is [Y]" are both received opinions.

If the dichotomy being discussed wasn't present in non-Western societies, that may be because free will is something we believe in innately without needing to give it any thought.
Please exemplify, because I'm not aware of any Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim who has ever embraced the Western notion of free will. Universally speaking, we act on desires and react to expectations, but we haven't chosen either of them. Furthermore, acceptable desires and societal expectations differ in degrees of divergence from place to place.

After all, why question that we have freedom when it is so integral to being in the world?
Being free is simply the state of not being a slave. The very second you tie metaphysical baggage to it, you enter a world of either received opinions (Fe) or private visions (Ni).
 

tommyc

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I'll be brief, but think of it as a Bayesian model in which randomness and uncertainty are embedded with causal relations. As such, this outlook doesn't impart any limits on my decision-making in everyday life, and I'd be ready to abandon it at second's notice were I to find a better explanation.

Interesting... I think you might be ENTP, and your distaste for feeling limited or restricted by your views on free will, to the extent youre willing to jettison them entirely, is consistent with my original assertion that EXXPs hate to feel their actions can be predicted.

**Braces himself**
 

Virtual ghost

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You can choose to do literally whatever you want to do. That's free will. That is NOT to say that there won't be potential consequences for your decisions.

You have free will. I have free will. Everyone gets a free will. Free Willy.


If you think in simplistic down to earth terms then yes. However it isn't that simple.

Every moment of time is 100% predetermined with what was going on just a second a go, what was predetermined with the second before that. What creates a structure that the whole reality is one big chain reaction and if you are in one huge chain reaction from which you can't escape you are basically a part of it. What in other words means that you are basically here just for the ride, especially since your own body and brain are just physical elements in this whole story. Towards this logic a human has the illusion that it is making decisions but it is always fully predetermined with the past and its own body that came out of being conceived and since then there is a strict chain reaction in interaction with environment. To fully grasp this you need to understand the concept of deterministic chaos and that is complicated story for which you need plenty of knowledge in physics.



Living with the idea there is no free will isn't easy but that doesn't mean the concept is bad logic.




True.

I always thought those who argued against free will, though, did so due to this: We are who we are. Right now, we are who we are based on every previous choice made and every aspect of our DNA. In other words, it's impossible for us to NOT be who we are - thus is not everything predetermined. We were born. Thus of course at this moment in time everything is as it is. (Don't know if that makes sense - I'd always assumed that was what people arguing against it were thinking of / where they were coming from). imo it becomes almost a semantics issue, as many things in philosophy seem to boil down to.


Exactly, and that is textbook symbol of not having a free will. Since there is no alternative and everything for the lasts 14 billion years is one big chain reaction where all objects define each others future 100% (through interaction, gravity, chemistry, etc.).
 

Peter Deadpan

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If you think in simplistic down to earth terms then yes. However it isn't that simple.

Every moment of time is 100% predetermined with what was going on just a second a go, what was predetermined with the second before that. What creates a structure that the whole reality is one big chain reaction and if you are in one huge chain reaction from which you can't escape you are basically a part of it. What in other words means that you are basically here just for the ride, especially since your own body and brain are just physical elements in this whole story. Towards this logic a human has the illusion that it is making decisions but it is always fully predetermined with the past and its own body that came out of being conceived and since then there is a strict chain reaction in interaction with environment. To fully grasp this you need to understand the concept of deterministic chaos and that is complicated story for which you need plenty of knowledge in physics.



Living with the idea there is no free will isn't easy but that doesn't mean the concept is bad logic.







Exactly, and that is textbook symbol of not having a free will. Since there is no alternative and everything for the lasts 14 billion years is one big chain reaction where all objects define each others future 100% (through interaction, gravity, chemistry, etc.).

My answer was reductionistic, you're right. I will have to read up more on free will from a psychological angle.
 

tommyc

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If you think in simplistic down to earth terms then yes. However it isn't that simple.

Every moment of time is 100% predetermined with what was going on just a second a go, what was predetermined with the second before that. What creates a structure that the whole reality is one big chain reaction and if you are in one huge chain reaction from which you can't escape you are basically a part of it. What in other words means that you are basically here just for the ride, especially since your own body and brain are just physical elements in this whole story. Towards this logic a human has the illusion that it is making decisions but it is always fully predetermined with the past and its own body that came out of being conceived and since then there is a strict chain reaction in interaction with environment. To fully grasp this you need to understand the concept of deterministic chaos and that is complicated story for which you need plenty of knowledge in physics.



Living with the idea there is no free will isn't easy but that doesn't mean the concept is bad logic.







Exactly, and that is textbook symbol of not having a free will. Since there is no alternative and everything for the lasts 14 billion years is one big chain reaction where all objects define each others future 100% (through interaction, gravity, chemistry, etc.).

May I ask what you type as/have typed as MBTI-wise? You have quite a firm, clear, personal stance on this issue and I think it could be illuminating in regards to type correlation.
 

Virtual ghost

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May I ask what you type as/have typed as MBTI-wise? You have quite a firm, clear, personal stance on this issue and I think it could be illuminating in regards to type correlation.

I am either a Te heavy INTJ or ambiverted and pretty intellectual ENTJ. (I have only tested as those 2 MBTI types)
 

cascadeco

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If you think in simplistic down to earth terms then yes. However it isn't that simple.

Every moment of time is 100% predetermined with what was going on just a second a go, what was predetermined with the second before that. What creates a structure that the whole reality is one big chain reaction and if you are in one huge chain reaction from which you can't escape you are basically a part of it. What in other words means that you are basically here just for the ride, especially since your own body and brain are just physical elements in this whole story. Towards this logic a human has the illusion that it is making decisions but it is always fully predetermined with the past and its own body that came out of being conceived and since then there is a strict chain reaction in interaction with environment. To fully grasp this you need to understand the concept of deterministic chaos and that is complicated story for which you need plenty of knowledge in physics.



Living with the idea there is no free will isn't easy but that doesn't mean the concept is bad logic.







Exactly, and that is textbook symbol of not having a free will. Since there is no alternative and everything for the lasts 14 billion years is one big chain reaction where all objects define each others future 100% (through interaction, gravity, chemistry, etc.).


To be honest, I think this is why I believe much of the 'debate' boils down to semantics. I essentially 'believe' in both free will and the lack of it, simultaneously, as to me it depends on how you look at it. Yes, we act as we do because of everything that led up to who we are (ie our genetics) and our personality can only be who we are - even if I decided suddenly to just 'act opposite' everything I previously stood for, it's still wholly my personality and 'predictable' in the sense that my personality would choose to eventually make that choice/ take that action. At the same time, I can easily say I am in fact choosing everything -- the option to decide my own fate, in many ways -- thus I do have free will/ freedom of choice and can go upon my life as I choose (within reasonable means/actual options available to me ofc). Doesn't matter if it was inevitable I would do such a thing - still within the human experience I have a vast array of choices I can entertain and execute upon. So from an actual 'brain experience' it amounts to having free will -- even IF such a thing is in 'simplistic and down to earth terms'.
 

tommyc

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I am either a Te heavy INTJ or ambiverted and pretty intellectual ENTJ. (I have only tested as those 2 MBTI types)

Ok... this follows my theory that T-friendly Ni users, with their capacity for internal detachment and inclination towards observation of mind, may be more comfortable with determinism.

Itd be interesting to hear an ISTP perspective...
 

Virtual ghost

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To be honest, I think this is why I believe much of the 'debate' boils down to semantics. I essentially 'believe' in both free will and the lack of it, simultaneously, as to me it depends on how you look at it. Yes, we act as we do because of everything that led up to who we are (ie our genetics) and our personality can only be who we are - even if I decided suddenly to just 'act opposite' everything I previously stood for, it's still wholly my personality and 'predictable' in the sense that my personality would choose to eventually make that choice/ take that action. At the same time, I can easily say I am in fact choosing everything -- the option to decide my own fate, in many ways -- thus I do have free will/ freedom of choice and can go upon my life as I choose (within reasonable means/actual options available to me ofc). Doesn't matter if it was inevitable I would do such a thing - still within the human experience I have a vast array of choices I can entertain and execute upon. So from an actual 'brain experience' it amounts to having free will -- even IF such a thing is in 'simplistic and down to earth terms'.



For me there is no semantics in this and I observe the whole thing through observation and physics. For most people it seem to be hard to chew on the idea that even all of their choices are predetermined. Since their choices are a reaction of physical world and physical world is a chain reaction. Your post is a direct reply to mine, which is reply on yours, what is the consequence of this thread being made, what is relevant simply because your life created the circumstances that you join this forum ....


You can watch this like a movie. When you play it normally everything looks fine but you can play it in reverse as well, but no matter how many times you go back and forward the movie will always show the same course of action. The same is with reality, all circumstances create a situation to which you react in your way. What means that in identical situations you will react in a same way, however since the reality is a great chain reaction you can't repeat exactly the same moment ever again, especially if you have the experience from the first time. What deepens the illusion of free will due to the complexity of reality, since never again you will be in the same place in the cosmos (because the whole galaxy is on the move). I mean this is very complicated issue that is hard to fully explain without going very deep into physics. (what in the end creates more question than answers)


I admit it is hard to think about a person as an object rather than a person and the whole concept that there is no free will is unpractical and counter-intuitive. It is just that every mili-second is 100% predetermined with it's past and therefore it is impossible to free oneself from the chain reaction that is going on since the so called "big bang".
 

Pionart

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I am conscious. My actions are part of the chain of physical causality but there is a driving force behind them, a will, which (no, it's not Ni) is infusing each moment with a sense of LIFE.
 

Virtual ghost

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I am conscious. My actions are part of the chain of physical causality but there is a driving force behind them, a will, which (no, it's not Ni) is infusing each moment with a sense of LIFE.


It doesn't matter if you feel conscious. Your mind is in this great chain reaction and since your birth for every second you are adapting to the consequences of events that happened long before you were born. How good or bad your judgement doesn't matter since it is in physical chain reaction, that will continue for much much much longer than your life. We are all simply stuck in this.


Plus I will dare to say that the whole consciousness thing is also fairly questionable term here, especially since the mind is a physical rather than supernatural concept. What can nicely be observed when you take antidepressants, painkillers and sedatives.
 

tommyc

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I am conscious. My actions are part of the chain of physical causality but there is a driving force behind them, a will, which (no, it's not Ni) is infusing each moment with a sense of LIFE.

I agree. Every person is an agent who affects and influences the world. Every person is capable of making decisions relatively uninfluenced by the external world.

I think what most people struggle with about free will is the idea of duality. They think that they are separate from their thoughts and emotions, and that they control them, or influence them, or direct them. What things like Buddhism tell us is that there is no separation in the mind. You are your thoughts, instincts, feelings. So the idea of there being a separate you who chooses between different impulses and desires doesnt make sense. You are your impulses and desires.
 

cascadeco

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For me there is no semantics in this and I observe the whole thing through observation and physics. For most people it seem to be hard to chew on the idea that even all of their choices are predetermined. Since their choices are a reaction of physical world and physical world is a chain reaction. Your post is a direct reply to mine, which is reply on yours, what is the consequence of this thread being made, what is relevant simply because your life created the circumstances that you join this forum ....


You can watch this like a movie. When you play it normally everything looks fine but you can play it in reverse as well, but no matter how many times you go back and forward the movie will always show the same course of action. The same is with reality, all circumstances create a situation to which you react in your way. What means that in identical situations you will react in a same way, however since the reality is a great chain reaction you can't repeat exactly the same moment ever again, especially if you have the experience from the first time. What deepens the illusion of free will due to the complexity of reality, since never again you will be in the same place in the cosmos (because the whole galaxy is on the move). I mean this is very complicated issue that is hard to fully explain without going very deep into physics. (what in the end creates more question than answers)


I admit it is hard to think about a person as an object rather than a person and the whole concept that there is no free will is unpractical and counter-intuitive. It is just that every mili-second is 100% predetermined with it's past and therefore it is impossible to free oneself from the chain reaction that is going on since the so called "big bang".

Well isn't that the heart of it, though? It's 'easy' to talk about everything being predetermined when viewing from the present moment looking at and reviewing the past. It seems to me that lack of free will is only implicit by the act of looking backwards. But the future is still wide open - hence in the present moment - which of course instantly becomes the past - there's that freedom.

I think I totally get what you're saying, and can respect that; I just also think it is just as much of a mental construct as free will is. So take this response as.. I'm not arguing with you/disagreeing with you... I just don't think it's possible to debate this, really.
 

Virtual ghost

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Well isn't that the heart of it, though? It's 'easy' to talk about everything being predetermined when viewing from the present moment looking at and reviewing the past. It seems to me that lack of free will is only implicit by the act of looking backwards. But the future is still wide open - hence in the present moment - which of course instantly becomes the past - there's that freedom.

I think I totally get what you're saying, and can respect that; I just also think it is just as much of a mental construct as free will is. So take this response as.. I'm not arguing with you/disagreeing with you... I just don't think it's possible to debate this, really.


Just for the record I am not watching things from present. I am watching from the perspective of big bang and endless action/reaction that happen since than. By what I am saying future is also predetermined (since it is predetermined by present and past). However due to endless complexity of gravity between every atom in the universe it is impossible for humans to ever know how things will play out on the long run in details.


But ok, is there really a free will isn't the question of this thread.
 

1487610420

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But ok, is there really a free will isn't the question of this thread.
Yet, its like the internet suffers from reading comprehension.
 

cascadeco

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Just for the record I am not watching things from present. I am watching from the perspective of big bang and endless action/reaction that happen since than. By what I am saying future is also predetermined (since it is predetermined by present and past). However due to endless complexity of gravity between every atom in the universe it is impossible for humans to ever know how things will play out on the long run in details.


But ok, is there really a free will isn't the question of this thread.

Thanks for the elaboration; yeah it is totally off topic but since that occurs in almost every other thread I decided to pursue the convo. ;) But yeah I'm done too. Thanks!
 

rav3n

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To be honest, I think this is why I believe much of the 'debate' boils down to semantics. I essentially 'believe' in both free will and the lack of it, simultaneously, as to me it depends on how you look at it. Yes, we act as we do because of everything that led up to who we are (ie our genetics) and our personality can only be who we are - even if I decided suddenly to just 'act opposite' everything I previously stood for, it's still wholly my personality and 'predictable' in the sense that my personality would choose to eventually make that choice/ take that action. At the same time, I can easily say I am in fact choosing everything -- the option to decide my own fate, in many ways -- thus I do have free will/ freedom of choice and can go upon my life as I choose (within reasonable means/actual options available to me ofc). Doesn't matter if it was inevitable I would do such a thing - still within the human experience I have a vast array of choices I can entertain and execute upon. So from an actual 'brain experience' it amounts to having free will -- even IF such a thing is in 'simplistic and down to earth terms'.
Another vote for both. For people who believe that everything's predetermined, how do you account for learned behaviors like personal hygiene and manners?
 

tommyc

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Another vote for both. For people who believe that everything's predetermined, how do you account for learned behaviors like personal hygiene and manners?

Not planting a flag here, more playing devil's advocate but.. Disbelief in a "will" divorced from determined mental happenings does not preclude learned behaviours. Human beings are hardwired to adopt social norms, indeed we seek them out. Babies show social intelligence and moralistic impulses almost as soon as they become aware of their environment. They just need time to learn the specific rules.
 

rav3n

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Not planting a flag here, more playing devil's advocate but.. Disbelief in a "will" divorced from determined mental happenings does not preclude learned behaviours. Human beings are hardwired to adopt social norms, indeed we seek them out. Babies show social intelligence and moralistic impulses almost as soon as they become aware of their environment. They just need time to learn the specific rules.
This isn't a definitive since as humans, we adopt some social norms and discard others. The action of adopting or discarding, is evidence of free will too.
 

tommyc

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This isn't a definitive since as humans, we adopt some social norms and discard others. The action of adopting or discarding, is evidence of free will too.

Some humans are instinctively more social than others. That can partly be put down to Introversion/Extroversion. Also natural levels of empathy.
But even the most social people dont always obey and adopt every social norm, if its not in their best interest at the time.
 
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