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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by raskol View Post
    As such, it will correlate with Si and Fe users.
    Im not sure free will is dependant on Christianity as much as it is on societies in general, for the concept is useful for the upkeep of morale, a value system and efficiency therein. So I agree that Si and Fe users may be inclined to support the notion - but I think Te is also vital.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I asked the question of whether free will existed once my Ti had activated, so I feel that there may be a correlation between asking the question and having conscious Ti, but as for believing one way or the other I know not.
    Furthering my point, perhaps Ti causes people to question the nature of free will in a personal way. So perhaps a Ti/Te lean indicates your attachment to free will...?

  2. #12
    Senior Member raskol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Im not sure free will is dependant on Christianity as much as it is on societies in general, for the concept is useful for the upkeep of morale, a value system and efficiency therein.
    There are no "societies in general." We have either Western, Orthodox, Islamic, Sinic, Buddhist, Hindu, or Japanese civilizations which possess particular sets of value systems, philosophies, and mythologies that impact the use of abstractions. Free will only holds significance in societies that were impacted by earlier stages of Christian dominance on culture and language, hence the evolution of freedom from "divine intervention" (god) to mechanistic "prior causes" (god or nature).

    So I agree that Si and Fe users may be inclined to support the notion - but I think Te is also vital.
    If you are considering this question in the sense of embracing determinism, then I'd say that both strong logic (Ti) and objective reasoning (Te) would dispense with free will/metaphysical libertarianism. You need something as irrational as faith to even imagine yourself severing the causal chain and then reattaching yourself to it.

  3. #13
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raskol View Post
    If you are considering this question in the sense of embracing determinism, then I'd say that both strong logic (Ti) and objective reasoning (Te) would dispense with free will/metaphysical libertarianism. You need something as irrational as faith to even imagine yourself severing the causal chain and then reattaching yourself to it.
    I don't think it requires faith. The notion of free will is consistent with the lived experience of life. We feel that we are free; it is the default position. There are causal factors influencing my behaviour, sure, but the non-causal, willing aspect of thought/action seems paramount, and only a radical skepticism could dispense with it.

  4. #14
    Senior Member raskol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I don't think it requires faith. The notion of free will is consistent with the lived experience of life. We feel that we are free; it is the default position.
    What matters here is the conceptual clarity of free will/metaphysical libertarianism. Perhaps, then, it is a sign of your embrace of free will that you even consider yourself to live and act beyond the confines of your culture, history, and language.

    There are causal factors influencing my behaviour, sure, but the non-causal, willing aspect of thought/action seems paramount, and only a radical skepticism could dispense with it.
    How?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by raskol View Post
    I'd say that both strong logic (Ti) and objective reasoning (Te)
    I dont see this as being the key distinction, or key descriptors of Ti and Te. Ti is a personal, subjective, independent thought process. Te works within socially normative modes of thought. Hence my point that Te would influence one's attachment to free will, since it's generally an idea intrinsic to social value systems.

    Thats a good point that societies are different - I dont have enough insight into others to determine their relative attitudes to free will. I know Western culture heavily emphasises it - the whole idea of the American dream, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, you can do anything you set your mind to, "The Secret" and the power of visualising goals. Tony Robbins and his ilk, the "will yourself to success" gurus.

    Eastern cultures may have a different approach, especially those in which individual ego is of little importance.

  6. #16
    Senior Member raskol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    I dont see this as being the key distinction, or key descriptors of Ti and Te. Ti is a personal, subjective, independent thought process. Te works within socially normative modes of thought. Hence my point that Te would influence one's attachment to free will, since it's generally an idea intrinsic to social value systems.
    I was using logic and reason as relevant manifestations of thinking as a cognitive function, where logic is inside-out and reason outside-in. Don't think of these brief assignations as exhaustive in any way.

    Thats a good point that societies are different - I dont have enough insight into others to determine their relative attitudes to free will. I know Western culture heavily emphasises it - the whole idea of the American dream, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, you can do anything you set your mind to, "The Secret" and the power of visualising your dream. Tony Robbins and his ilk, the "will yourself to success" gurus.
    Precisely. These are all contemporary variations which, at their root, share colonial America's puritan founding.

    Eastern cultures may have a different approach, especially those in which individual ego is of little importance.
    Indeed.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    I dont see this as being the key distinction, or key descriptors of Ti and Te. Ti is a personal, subjective, independent thought process. Te works within socially normative modes of thought. Hence my point that Te would influence one's attachment to free will, since it's generally an idea intrinsic to social value systems.
    .
    I feel that... Ti would consider the intrinsic logic behind the idea of free will, whereas Te would consider it more from an empirical point of view, perhaps trying to find studies or other evidence for/against the view.

    Neither approach can really be used to conclusive determine which the correct view is, though they might seem to to some extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by raskol
    Perhaps, then, it is a sign of your embrace of free will that you even consider yourself to live and act beyond the confines of your culture, history, and language.
    It was actually during a history class that I realised just how bound by my culture etc. I am. This led to contemplation of free will, and resulted in a mini existential crisis. The fact that a crisis precipitated is a strong indicator that I had a belief in free will prior to being exposed to the concept, because a crisis indicates that a strongly held belief is being called into question.

    Though I came to realise how absurd the notion of free will was, the notion of strict determinism seemed more absurd still. I cut the inquiry short because once considering strict determinism I thought "what can even be done with this information? It's a somewhat meaningless question.", and I likely moved onto a different inquiry.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    Though I came to realise how absurd the notion of free will was, the notion of strict determinism seemed more absurd still. I cut the inquiry short because once considering strict determinism I thought "what can even be done with this information? It's a somewhat meaningless question.", and I likely moved onto a different inquiry.
    Aha! Precisely. Nothing can be done when you adopt a framework of strict determinism - its not useful for you. Its not socially useful. Its demotivating. In a way, its an antisocial mode of thought.

    To briefly use your type to illustrate my point - we both come out INFJ. But from the sounds of it, you have a firmer belief in the power of your will than me. My inner experience is more like that of a piece of driftwood, being swept to and fro by mood, instinct and animal desire. I am pretty detached. This difference can perhaps be explained by, or explain our differing Enneagram scores? Im a Type 4 - basically an existentalist loner. Im happy to adopt meaningless modes of thought - indeed thats kinda the point of my role as an outsider. For a socially atuned, more group-focused and responsive Type 9 its a heavier burden to shoulder, drains your energy and makes you less effective in your role as mediator.

  9. #19
    Senior Member raskol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    I feel that... Ti would consider the intrinsic logic behind the idea of free will, whereas Te would consider it more from an empirical point of view, perhaps trying to find studies or other evidence for/against the view.
    Agreed. In each case, however, they'd still be considering loops or escapes from the causal chain, which would be difficult to justify rationally or empirically. I'd say it's uncontroversial to correlate strong use of Ti and Te with increasing degrees of determinism.

    Neither approach can really be used to conclusive determine which the correct view is, though they might seem to to some extent.
    That doesn't run counter to my claim: "If you are considering this question in the sense of embracing determinism, then I'd say that both strong logic (Ti) and objective reasoning (Te) would dispense with free will/metaphysical libertarianism."

    Philosophically speaking, there are three modes:
    1. metaphysical libertarianism/pure free will;
    2. compatibilism/weak determinism;
    3. metaphysical determinism.

    I'm sure you can find people who embrace (1) and reject (2) and (3), perhaps those who make successful careers out of it, but most of us end up somewhere in the middle. And those who argue in favor of pure free will would likely not present an argument tied to Ti and Te.

    It was actually during a history class that I realised just how bound by my culture etc. I am. This led to contemplation of free will, and resulted in a mini existential crisis. The fact that a crisis precipitated is a strong indicator that I had a belief in free will prior to being exposed to the concept, because a crisis indicates that a strongly held belief is being called into question.

    Though I came to realise how absurd the notion of free will was, the notion of strict determinism seemed more absurd still. I cut the inquiry short because once considering strict determinism I thought "what can even be done with this information? It's useless/meaningless, the question is meaningless!", and I likely moved onto a different inquiry.
    I am inclined to agree. How people position themselves on free will isn't so much an invitation to argument as it is an indicator of their sociocultural background. The position itself has no practical application, but the way in which people approach it informs us about who they are, how they think, and what they value. And the strongest correlation for the embrace of free will, for Westerners, is primarily Si and secondarily Fe.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyc View Post
    Aha! Precisely. Nothing can be done when you adopt a framework of strict determinism - its not useful for you. Its not socially useful. Its demotivating. In a way, its an antisocial mode of thought.
    Agreed.

    To briefly use your type to illustrate my point - we both come out INFJ. But from the sounds of it, you have a firmer belief in the power of your will than me. My inner experience is more like that of a piece of driftwood, being swept to and fro by mood, instinct and animal desire. I am pretty detached. This difference can perhaps be explained by, or explain our differing Enneagram scores? Im a Type 4 - basically an existentalist loner. Im happy to adopt meaningless modes of thought - indeed thats kinda the point of my role as an outsider. For a socially atuned, more group-focused and responsive Type 9 its a heavier burden to shoulder, and makes you less effective in your role as mediator.
    I don't think enneagram is really a factor here. It could be, but I wouldn't expect Type 9 to be a type that places much stock in their own will. I associate it with a more go-with-the-flow attitude.

    There are other reasons that my belief in free will may be so strong. Perhaps it is due to giving more consideration to philosophical questions (I'm not saying I necessarily have), but I think there's something about me which makes it a natural attitude to adopt. Some kind of... hmm.

    And the strongest correlation for the embrace of free will, for Westerners, is primarily Si and secondarily Fe.
    This would only be the case if they are accepting free will on the basis of a traditional dogma, as you seemed to link it to. But this notion doesn't sit right with me; will may even be most strongly linked to Ni, though perhaps also not. It does seem like an NJ is more likely to discuss the concept than an SJ because, well, it's a concept. You may be right about an anti-correlation between belief in free will and strength of the Thinking preference, but I feel that fundamentally this is something that type doesn't cover.

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